Where Am I On the Norwood Scale??

dabritz

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Hey guys, Please see attached couple of pictures showing where I am at currently. I am curious as to where I would be on the Norwood Scale??
I have been losing my hair since the age of 19, I'm now 29. I started using propecia on and off from the age of 26 until now, however didn't really notice much difference, it seemed to slow my hair loss but no gains, I'm now feeling like the back of my hear around the crown area is thinning as well as on top. And I now intend to start using the big 3, already got my nizoral, will order the trip pack of Rogaine Foam. The only issue I think I'm going to have is getting the Finasteride in generic form in 5mg pill, my doctor has only ever prescribed me propecia which cost $70 per month and is too much hence why I have been taking it on and off.
 

dabritz

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finfighter said:
I would say a norwood 2 with receded temporal points-''Temporal points'' refers to the hair on the side of your head behind the eyes and above the ears.


Do you think if I started using the big 3 I would see a marked improvement than that I saw using just propecia??
 

dabritz

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finfighter said:
You seem to have a very strong hairline and the areas where you do have hair seem to be very thick, it's hard to say ,but that may just be your natural hairline, you may not even have male pattern baldness. I couldn't tell you without better pics, you need to have an overhead shot showing your crown and a profile shot, as well as a better shot of the hairline- more of a close up without hair gel....

I would recommend that you get a hair minaturization study done by a dermatologist to determine if you even have male pattern baldness, before you start anything. At any rate I do not believe that you will be able to restore your temporal points or lower your hairline without a hair transplant. You may just have a naturally high hairline/forehead....


Actually my hairline is not naturally like that(well it is but wasn't always the way it is now). My hairline was quite a bit lower before and had a perfect arc from left to right I will photoshop the pic and show you where my hair line used to be. Also my hair used to be a lot thicker, almost too thick in fact.

I went to see someone at Micron labs years ago who told me I had excellent hair although it wouldn't stay that way without treatment.
 

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dabritz

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Here are another couple pics.
 

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dabritz

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finfighter said:
Ok, Realistically you can expect to maintain the hair in the areas where hair is present, and thicken minaturized hair shafts, with Finasteride, you may also be able to add a small amount of regrowth from Minoxidil; but, you will not be able to regrow hair in the areas you highlighted without a hair transplant.


This leads me to my next point which really could be a whole new topic but, here we go.
If you accept the notion that we have hair on our heads to keep our heads warm, then why on earth would 50 % of men lose their hair?? This seems like a flaw in nature.

Also do you think that over time more and more people are losing their hair and in fact what we are seeing is a process of evolution where one day, nobody will have hair.

I think the key to finding the true cure maybe looking into why it is Native american people do not lose their hair, and I mean none of them. I have yet to see a aboriginal person with a receding hairline.
 

anxious1

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i am not going to deny u had that original hairline. It seems a bit low to me, but if u say it was , then i believe u.

i really don't think ur a norwood 2. a norwood 2 has a definate squarish shape, and ur still quite rounded across ur hairline. Furthermore the spot in ur crown is nothing to be concerned about either. Perhaps it doesnt look like it did when u were younger, but everyone at least past their teens has that spot.

just because ur hairline has receded, doesnt mean u have anything to worry about. almost everyone recedes from wat they looked like as a teen, its normal. At present i'd say u have nothing to worry about, but the only way to tell if it is just a maturing hairline or the beginning of male pattern baldness, which even then might only be a very slow progression, is to get a miniturization study done.

yet a another guy worried about nothing. Either forget about it for a while, or get the study done. I guess its good ur being proactive about it, but ur a bit early imo.
 

dabritz

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idontwanttobebalding said:
finfighter said:
idontwanttobebalding said:
I might, but I doubt it. You see I come here for my answers. I visit other sites don't get me wrong, but if I have a question or comment I come here. I trust the guys here, including you (whether we agree or not) to provide the answers (and the questions). I think the cure will come from this site! :) At least this is where we will hear about it first. Far to many smart people investing far to many hours for it not to be so. I would rather hear from you. Why do you think he mentioned the people from Central American Rainforest along with those with a genetic defect and Native Americans?


It seems to me that he was suggesting, that there are a small group of people in central America who do not experience male pattern baldness-as a result of a diet which consists of foods that suppress 5 Alpha Reductase activety-which prevents DHT metabolization, and effectively prevents their hair follicles from being minaturized by DHT.

I am not familiar with this group of people or their diet, and generally I have never believed that male pattern baldness can be prevented by ones diet; however, certain foods have been shown to block DHT metabolization (at least in mice) such as, green tea. I'm surprised to hear him (Rassman) make this assumption, but I have been following his blog for a while and generally take his advice seriously, he has great credentials and has been a world class heart surgeon, as well as a leading hair transplant doctor.....

I would be interested to hear him discuss this further...

Thanks for the response. No trap in my question. I know your beliefs. And thank you Dabritz for helping to bring up a large question. I think your hair looks great BTW and you may want to check out "inland's" regimen in the success threads for some advise.

No thank you guys for the interesting discussion. My original question however remains somewhat unanswered, are more and more men nowadays going bald as opposed to back in the day?? It seems as though this is more and more the case as it would just seem to me that when you see pictures of various historical figures from times past they have their hair for the most part. Sure some do not, but it does seem remarkable the amount of people with hair vs people without.
Is this due to the artist being told to paint the subject with hair to avoid being told off?? Or is there something there. Again this may support the theory you guys were talking about where our sh*t diets may be to blame at least partially for our hair loss. That and are busy lifestyle inducing more stress.
Surely if they can isolate the gene in Native Americans(Aboriginals means the same thing, most people think it only refers to the native people of Australia but it does not) that causes them not to lose their hair then we may be closer to a cure, also I believe pinpointing exactly what happened inside a mans body at the time it decided to tell the scalp to start shedding hair permanently starting at the frontal hair line and receding the hairline? Furthermore understand why it is it falls out in a very specific pattern to begin with, ever notice how your hair falls out the same way it grows in as a child?? Why is this?? Why doesn't our hair just all start to fall out at once??? Why is it we are programmed to first lose our frontal hairline/temples, and then start the thinning on top and develop the spot in the back?? Is this gods bad sense of humour? Is it to slowly have us recede to help with the shock of actually losing ones hair, so that we have time to adjust to our diminished looks?
Within all these questions lies the answer and cure to hair loss, we need to defy natures flaw. We all should have hair on our heads to keep our heads warm period, and to attract the opposite sex( Again this could be a form of population control, as bald men simply aren't as attractive as men with a full head of hair according to women).
Well I digress, thanks fellas.
 

dabritz

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finfighter said:
Let me clarify something, I do not believe that a particular diet will produce or prevent Androgenetic Alopecia. I have seen no research that demonstrates this.

I did assume that you were referring to the Australian aboriginies, The term Aborigines can refer to any indigenous people, but I assumed that, if you were talking about Native Americans, that you would have preceded the word ''Aborigines'' with a regional description such as ''North American Aborigines''.

As far as the main causes of Androgenetic-Alopecia, (male pattern baldness) they are pretty simple.



The main cause is a genetic predisposition to Androgen Receptor sites which are located on the hair follicles of the human scalp-which are preprogrammed, (by your genetic profile) for eventual apoptosis, . It's that simple, DHT is one of the main androgens which triggers hair follicle cell apoptosis in these people.

To paraphrase:

Your genetic profile loads the gun, DHT and other male androgens pull the trigger....
Gotcha..except why would we lose our hair in such a pattern if all the follicles with the exception of the hair on the sides of head is programmed to be sensitive to DHT and fall out, why would it not all start falling out at the same time?? Like I said before it falls out exactly the same way it grows in pretty much. This has to be explained.
I saw a hair loss specialist a few years ago and he thought that it was more you scalps sensitivity to DHT than it is the actual hair follicle. He said that the DHT cause your scalp to tighten which then cuts off blood circulation to the hair follicle slowly killing it over time. So indirectly yes your follicles are sensitive to DHT, however if you scalp were to remain loose enough enough blood would reach the follicle, thus preventing hair loss in the first place.
It would be interesting to know like I said before the straw that broke the camels back so to speak in terms of body signals and knowing the exact moment that our bodies decide to start shedding that very first follicle, and why it is after being able to sustain resistance to DHT, did this then cease and hair loss begin in the odd pattern that it does.
 

dabritz

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finfighter said:
dabritz said:
finfighter said:
Let me clarify something, I do not believe that a particular diet will produce or prevent Androgenetic Alopecia. I have seen no research that demonstrates this.

I did assume that you were referring to the Australian aboriginies, The term Aborigines can refer to any indigenous people, but I assumed that, if you were talking about Native Americans, that you would have preceded the word ''Aborigines'' with a regional description such as ''North American Aborigines''.

As far as the main causes of Androgenetic-Alopecia, (male pattern baldness) they are pretty simple.



The main cause is a genetic predisposition to Androgen Receptor sites which are located on the hair follicles of the human scalp-which are preprogrammed, (by your genetic profile) for eventual apoptosis, . It's that simple, DHT is one of the main androgens which triggers hair follicle cell apoptosis in these people.

To paraphrase:

Your genetic profile loads the gun, DHT and other male androgens pull the trigger....
Gotcha..except why would we lose our hair in such a pattern if all the follicles with the exception of the hair on the sides of head is programmed to be sensitive to DHT and fall out, why would it not all start falling out at the same time?? Like I said before it falls out exactly the same way it grows in pretty much. This has to be explained.
I saw a hair loss specialist a few years ago and he thought that it was more you scalps sensitivity to DHT than it is the actual hair follicle. He said that the DHT cause your scalp to tighten which then cuts off blood circulation to the hair follicle slowly killing it over time. So indirectly yes your follicles are sensitive to DHT, however if you scalp were to remain loose enough enough blood would reach the follicle, thus preventing hair loss in the first place.
It would be interesting to know like I said before the straw that broke the camels back so to speak in terms of body signals and knowing the exact moment that our bodies decide to start shedding that very first follicle, and why it is after being able to sustain resistance to DHT, did this then cease and hair loss begin in the odd pattern that it does.



The lack of blood flow to the scalp theory is dead, if this were the case all vasodilators would cure Androgenetic Alopecia. Not to metion, the oubvious fact, that if you had enough of a lack of blood flow ,to the scalp, to cause your hair to fall out your scalp tissue would die from a lack of blood rich oxygen and circulation!

Also the scalp itself does not have adrogen receptors the hair follicles do, so that theory about DHT tightening the scalp is invalid.

The reason that all of the hair doesn't fall out at once, is due to the fact that hair follicles gradually minaturize over time, and the hair growth cycles become shorter, as each new cycle begins the hair shaft that emerges is minaturized this process repeats itself until the hair shaft eventually dies, and no longer returns because of cell apoptosis.

The rate of hair follicle minaturization is ultimately predetermined by your genetics, which varies with each person.

Babies hair growth has nothing to do with Androgenetic Alopecia, as you can see people who don't have Androgenetic Alopecia have the same type of hair growth as a baby as those who do. There is no correlation here. Besides, a babies hair growth does not always mimic male pattern baldness, it may resemble it because a babies hair grows in gradually so it appears thin and whispy at first, correlation not causation...

I get that hair follicles minaturize over time, but why do they not minaturize in the balding region all at the same time, instead of starting at the front and working it's way back?? If all if it is going to fall out, why not minaturize all over the top region of the head at the same time?? By part about the scalp tightening was speculation on my part and the info was given to me by micron labratories.
 

dabritz

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finfighter said:
dabritz said:
I get that hair follicles minaturize over time, but why do they not minaturize in the balding region all at the same time, instead of starting at the front and working it's way back?? If all if it is going to fall out, why not minaturize all over the top region of the head at the same time?? By part about the scalp tightening was speculation on my part and the info was given to me by micron labratories.

It's all just predetermined by your genetics, men bald in different areas, at different rates, and at different ages. It all boils down to their genetic profile which is predetermined. Each hair follicle becomes vulnerable to androgens at various times that are predetermined, it's really that simple. Certain hair follicles are not programmed to become vulnerable to androgens until a later time than the others, it's simply genetic in origin, it was already determined before you were born...
I agree mostly with what you're saying except it would seem so many of us share the same genetic code for how we lose our hair. I guess my question is, if we are to be bald, why is it in nature that we don't lose it all at once once our follicles are no longer resistant to the DHT? Why would each follicle be different in it's resistance to DHT, and why are some follicles completely immune to it, why not make all our follicles immune to through nature? And how on earth is it natural for 50% of us to lose our hair, when we're supposed to have hair to keep our head, and ears warm? And why is it then that my dad, my grampa on my dad and my moms side both had their hair, yet I am losing mine?? Sure I've been able to reduce the effects by starting to use finasteride 5 years into my hair loss, but I really shouldn't be losing mine at all, if it truly does just come down to genetics. It would seem that we will be able to send a man to land on Mars before we solve the hair loss issue.
 
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