What Happend?

[Redbone]

When I first came here in August 03 there were all sorts of reports on new products such as Fluridil, BAP6, RU etc etc.... I have not heard of anyone posting such information in the last several months.

Have these products just panned out as being sh*t or did people just forget about them? I know the Laser Comb never really lived up to its promis. Some of the other things were in the third round of clinical studies and were due for releas in October 03 but that has not happend either.

The new products we once fantasized about and hope for seem to have all gone down the shitter. What the F**k

 

[elguapo]

Yeah, I laughed at the link about hair loss research getting a "major funding boost" on Thebaldtruth.com. Have you seen Dr. Christiano? She's a hottie!! If I were Dr. Jahoda, I know what I would be "researching", if ya know what I mean.

 

[Redbone]

Rumor has it she has a bald Beata....

 

[Stinger122]

Rumor has it she has a bald Beata....

lol :lol:

 

[Andrew]

Hi Redbone,

Most of the people on these latest and non approved product like RU, fluridil and Innovate 6 bap don't post their result is they get shoot down most of the time.

Everytime I post something on INNOVATE 6 bap, the general comment I get is:-

"Stick to proven and FDA approved products"
Not very encouraging.

However, most people don't realise that Propecia and minoxidil is at least 5 years old.
Medical science has evolved more since then and I don't mind trying out new stuff as long as there are scientific reasoning behind it.

Anyway, i will keep you updated on my usage of INNOVATE 6- bap. I am seeing positive result so far, I am at my one week mark.

 

[Jack_the_Lad]

my excitement for hairloss products is seriously wanning

 

[Redbone]

There was a guy here called Funkster I think he hangs at another site now but he used all sorts of experimental sh*t like RU and Fluridil. He also mixed his own topicals. He managed to get allot of guys on the band wagon then he just disappeared.

Cant understand why Bap6 and Fluridil have not made it to the states yet? They are both approved for use in there home countrys of Japan and Czech republic.

Thanks for the update Andrew.

 

[Jack_the_Lad]

I really wouldn't have the time or desire to experiment with hairloss to that extent.

 

[Guest]

There was a guy here called Funkster I think he hangs at another site now but he used all sorts of experimental sh*t like RU and Fluridil. He also mixed his own topicals. He managed to get allot of guys on the band wagon then he just disappeared.

Cant understand why Bap6 and Fluridil have not made it to the states yet? They are both approved for use in there home countrys of Japan and Czech republic.

Thanks for the update Andrew.

Funkster has his hairloss very much under control these days so doesent post much here anymore. Take what you will from that.

Nobody talks about stuff like 6-BAP (Innovate), Oz Brew, Fluridil or RU on this site much because its not really this sites objective to promote unproven treatments. Plenty of guys are using new stuff though, you just wont hear about them much on this site.

BTW You can order Innovate, Fluridil and RU to the States. Fluridil can be tricky to get your hands on though except from one site where it is expensive.

 

[Redbone]

Hmmmm....

 

[HairlossTalk]

Most of the people on these latest and non approved product like RU, fluridil and Innovate 6 bap don't post their result is they get shoot down most of the time.

Sigh.. You got shot down by people because you are claiming thickening and color changes after less than 1 week of use. There is a general opinion that guys who just dump unproven products on their heads are already not very bright because they care little or nothing about clinical data most of the time. Making claims that you are seeing results in less than a week backs up that theory, and guys are going to shoot you down for that. Please don't make it sound like you got shot down simply because you are experimenting with other products. That simply is not the case.

I definitely don't mean to shoot down the lesser educated here, but most people here are about facts, data, and quantifiable evidence. Claiming you are seeing results in a week is going to further prove to these guys that people who buy into this stuff are not very bright in the first place.

Everytime I post something on INNOVATE 6 bap, the general comment I get is:-"Stick to proven and FDA approved products"
Not very encouraging.

You want to be encouraged to use something that we have absolutely no evidence will work? Again this logic seems backwards. You are entitiled to use what you like, but when you come to the proven forums and start asking guys if you should use something that has zero track record of effectiveness, what do you think they're going to say? You can post in the unproven and experimental forum all day if you like and if guys say that there, remind them what forum you're in and tell them "Hey I dont care about all that proven junk, im not all about clnical data, i wanna do my own thing." And they should respect that. If they don't let me know.

However, most people don't realise that Propecia and minoxidil is at least 5 years old. Medical science has evolved more since then

Your reason for putting these products above Propecia and Rogaine is because you assume medical science has evolved? Therefore they're all on the same ground and its only bcause these are newer that they're better? What about hair counts? What about science? This is why guys jump you andrew. Not because they're just jerks. The things you say don't make much logical sense. If science has evolved, and there are better products out there than Propecia or Rogaine, why are you having to fly to some obscure city in the far east to find them? Why isnt someone in the united states already making it and getting rich off of it?

If you actually believe something works better than Propecia or Rogaine today, then where is the data showing better hair counts, on at least 1,000 men over a period of 2 years? That's what Propecia has. I don't see that with any of these things you have decided are more evolved.

Bottom line Andrew: If the clinical data MATCHED or BETTERED Propecia or Rogaine, every one on this website would be supporting it. Some people just require proof that something works. Some people require anecdotal evidence that something works. You are part of the latter group and that is fine. Every scientist, doctor, and researcher in the world is part of the other group though, and we choose to side with their logic. That's all.

I am seeing positive result so far, I am at my one week mark.

You are seeing positive results and you are at your One Week Mark?

I rest my case.

HairLossTalk.com

PS... to those who say "You wont find guys using unproven products on this site, you can find that on other sites". I hear this a lot. The question is why is this considered a bad thing? Every single unproven product that has come in the last 5 years since I started running this site, EVERY SINGLE ONE has fizzeled to nothing. Religiously, EVERYONE complains that they got "taken for" and absolutely NONE OF THEM have panned out to anything. They all complain they lost a ton of money, ton of time, and a ton of hair to every single one of them. Everytime something new comes out we get criticized for not being "cutting edge" or "open minded". All we are doing is asking for clinical data. That is how every legit scientist in this *world* works. Without fail, every single person who has tried *EVERY SINGLE* unproven product has ended up coming right back home to clinically proven products and dumping the "cutting edge" or "evolved" one. 6-Bap Will be No Different.

 

[Guest]

There is a general opinion that guys who just dump unproven products on their heads are already not very bright because they care little or nothing about clinical data most of the time.

I think thats a very patronising thing to say.

I do believe in clinical data though and very much in FDA approved treatments. However you are totally right about the seeing results in one week thing.

 

[HairlossTalk]

I think thats a very patronising thing to say.

When I sign off and walk outside into the real world where real scientists are, everyone agrees with me on this topic about requiring sufficient clinical data. When I sign back on to this hair loss site I become the minority. Why is that?

Everything in the entire scientific community bases everything it has ever done on clinical trials, controlls, placebo based, double blind studies, and every single condition on this planet surrounds itself in such research. There isn't a single Scientist ON THIS PLANET who will consider any product worth using without some sort of solid scientific evidence........ Yet here I sit mister minority because I hold this view?

You have a bunch of guys who have zero scientific training and zero education on what is required for a hair treatment to work saying they don't care about clinical data, they think "propecia and rogaine are old chronologically" and they don't require haircounts and they dont require controls or data or 2 years of hundreds of recorded results.... why is it patronizing to say that these people don't exactly seem to sound intelligent?

These same people consistently make totally unscientific comments, say that they think the FDA is paid off to give false results, have paranoia and weird conspiracy theories, think everything herbal is "natural and safe". I can go on and on. I have listened to these people for 5 years now. They've proven to me over and over again that they are not working with a full set of marbles. Sure maybe 80% of the people who listen to them are well meaning and don't know any better but that just again shows that they're also not educated enough on this issue.

Someone actually told this guy somewhere (and ive seen it myself on hairsite!) that Rogaine and Propecia are "old news" and "dont work". And he has believed it.

I volunteer at Scripps Research Institute here in San Diego in their AIDS and Cancer research center. Do you have ANY idea how laughed out of the building I would be, if I walked in there and started spewing half the crap these guys spew on these websites about how clinical data is not necessary to put trust in a product? Do you have any idea how ignored I would be if I told them I "believed" in a product that didnt have sufficient evidence?

I feel like a scientist living in pre-rennaisance times sometimes with this website. Like I am the only one who believes in the scientific method, and everyone else is still running around pouring dirt on their head and calling me a heretic. This is backwards logic.

I do associate overall intelligence with an inability to understand the obvious. And I do consider requiring clinical data to be incredibly obvious. It is only in "hair loss circles" that I have *ever* seen such a large number of people so willing to waste their money on products that they have no reason to believe will work. There is no other condition on this planet like this.

 

[Guest]

I respect your opinion on this matter and im not interested in having an argument over this matter...again. :lol:

I guess what works for me in my regimen must mean that im clinically brain-dead. :wink:

 

[HairlossTalk]

I guess what works for me in my regimen must mean that im clinically brain-dead.

Tell me Zimmy how can you KNOW what works for you in your regimen when your regimen consists of 10 items?

Lets complicate this further. You're using 2 clnically proven products as part of those 10.

How can you ever claim something like the "MSM" portion of your regimen is "working" You can't.

Why?

You should know why. Takes me right back to my original point. Clinical data.

Pour watermellon seeds on your head. How can you claim that the watermellon seeds are working without data showing that watermellon seeds work X% of the time in X% of people over an X timeframe, when used by themselves?

A real clinical study means you dont use anything BUT watermellon seeds. Thats the only way to know if anything works.

Therefore, quite logically, intelligently, using education and basic though processes, unless you are using only one thing, you can't claim that something is working for you.

If you were about to make the statement that you can know if something is working in your regimen, then yes, I do associate that statement with a level of education or lack of education. Why? See above.

Even Propecia.

All you can ever do is point to the data about Propecia. Or the data About Rogaine.

If there is no data, then you personally can NEVER make the claim that MSM worked for you, or that 6bap worked for you.

You just proved my point.

Im going to enroll everyone on my site in 1 Logic Course and 1 Philolosphy Course.

When you get out of those classes you're going to understand what making claims about something means, and what is required to make a claim about something. You may not even believe you exist anymore, but we can work through that too

I do beleive the tendency to constantly jump on bandwagons of unproven products is a direct reflection on lack of education in all things science. Yes.

 

[Guest]

Well that comment does prove my point again.

How exactly do you KNOW what is working for you?

You're using Propecia and Rogaine.... and .... take your pick of anything else in your regimen. How can you claim "MSM is working"? You can't. Why?

You should know why.

Pour watermellon seeds on your head. How can you claim that the watermellon seeds are working without data showing that watermellon seeds work X% of the time in X% of people over an X timeframe?

A real clinical study means you dont use anything BUT watermellon seeds. Thats the only way to know if anything works.

Therefore, quite logically, intelligently, using education and basic though processes, you can't claim that something is working for you. Even Propecia. All you can ever do is point to the data about Propecia. Or the data About Rogaine.

You just proved my point.

What your saying is a bit convuluted, your saying that nobody can claim that propecia works for them?

I know personally exactly what works for me thank you very much.

 

[Guest]

I guess what works for me in my regimen must mean that im clinically brain-dead.

Tell me Zimmy how can you KNOW what works for you in your regimen when your regimen consists of 10 items?

Lets complicate this further. You're using 2 clnically proven products as part of those 10.

How can you ever claim something like the "MSM" portion of your regimen is "working" You can't.

Why?

You should know why. Takes me right back to my original point. Clinical data.

Pour watermellon seeds on your head. How can you claim that the watermellon seeds are working without data showing that watermellon seeds work X% of the time in X% of people over an X timeframe, when used by themselves?

A real clinical study means you dont use anything BUT watermellon seeds. Thats the only way to know if anything works.

Therefore, quite logically, intelligently, using education and basic though processes, unless you are using only one thing, you can't claim that something is working for you.

If you were about to make the statement that you can know if something is working in your regimen, then yes, I do associate that statement with a level of education or lack of education. Why? See above.

Even Propecia.

All you can ever do is point to the data about Propecia. Or the data About Rogaine.

If there is no data, then you personally can NEVER make the claim that MSM worked for you, or that 6bap worked for you.

You just proved my point.

Im going to enroll everyone on my site in 1 Logic Course and 1 Philolosphy Course.

When you get out of those classes you're going to understand what making claims about something means, and what is required to make a claim about something. You may not even believe you exist anymore, but we can work through that too

I do beleive the tendency to constantly jump on bandwagons of unproven products is a direct reflection on lack of education in all things science. Yes.

HairLossTalk.com, im sure you have better things to do with running your fine site than writing dissertations to my posts.

Take MSM for example...before i took it my hair grew extremely slowly. The only reason i take it is to incerease speed of hair growth, as it does for just about anybody else who takes it. My hair SINCE starting it grows at a quick pace. All i have ever claimed from MSM is that increases speed of hair growth. Sory it hasnt been through a 25 year FDA approved blind placebo study but at the end of the day i dont really care, i just want my hair to grow faster, thats all.

 

[Axon]

I'm with you on this HairLossTalk.com.

The clinical data ia a dogma - like it or not. Rage against it all you want, scream to heaven how these products don't work - it does not refute that the clinical studies showed Finasteride and Minoxidil to be effective at regrowing hair.

I've seen an FDA investigation (Oxycontin) - they are so incredibly strict, thorough and a*** it would shock some people. It really would. I, or anyone else, was not allowed to go anywhere near them as they conducted their investigation. They simply showed up unannouced and took all the documents and product they wanted. They reviewed them on site for a good 14 hours, announced that their findings were identical to the original FDA trial on Oxycontin, and then they left.

Furthermore, this and all hairloss forums are rife with exaggeration. Nothing is more comical (or sad) to me than a new poster who claims he'll be bald in six months, but then posts pictures that show a better hairline and crown than mine. You must wade through all the hyperbole to find that one little nugget of solid info or experience.

New does not mean better. I recommend one, just one, treatment for hairloss that is not FDA approved - Folligen. And I've never claimed it'll actually regrow anything. I just think it helps overall scalp conditions and acts as a nice supplement to Minoxidil.

I am not against new treatments - I think Avodart shows promise, although the half-life issues are scary - but I also want something concrete to look at before I recommend anything.

Zimmy: I agree that end-user results are a solid building block. That's what made me try folligen. But it's not clinical data, unfortunately.

Again, you can tell what's "real" and what isn't, you know?

 

[Guest]

BTW with your reliance on logic and science you would make a good Vulcan. Do you have pointy ears? :lol:

 

[Guest]

I know that minoxidil and propecia work, i dont need to see the clinical data to tell me that. Good and scientific as that may be. At the end of the day propecia and minoxidil are the core foundations of my regimen and anything else is the cream on top, nothing more.

So call me an idiot for using MSM or Biotin...or some other unproven treatment, i really dont care. Im happy. :lol: