Thermal profile of balding scalp

[benjt]

Sup guys,

to add a little bit of data to maybe help in our better understanding of hairloss, I took a thermal photo of my head from above today. The main reason is that, due to contradictory publications, I am not quite sure if balding scalp tissue actually thins or thickens. My hope is that a thermal photo taken myself will help shed some light.

Background info on what you are seeing: NW3A (crown currently completely unaffected - but judging from the photo I guess it comes next). My right temple is my bad temple, i.e. more hairloss there than on my left temple. This photo was taken from above with the following orientiation: top of the photo is the back of my head, bottom of the photo is where my face is. Correspondingly, what is left on the photo would be my right temple.

I will not provide any of my own possible interpretations of the thermal photo. However, you can clearly see that the crown area leaks more heat, as does the right temple - my "bad temple".

Maybe it will be useful to someone.

Full image: http://imageshack.us/a/img13/4145/5g9c.png



This is an orientation help:
http://imageshack.us/a/img13/2458/d6z7.png

 

[squeegee]

Sup guys,

to add a little bit of data to maybe help in our better understanding of hairloss, I took a thermal photo of my head from above today. The main reason is that, due to contradictory publications, I am not quite sure if balding scalp tissue actually thins or thickens. My hope is that a thermal photo taken myself will help shed some light.

Background info on what you are seeing: NW3A (crown currently completely unaffected - but judging from the photo I guess it comes next). My right temple is my bad temple, i.e. more hairloss there than on my left temple. This photo was taken from above with the following orientiation: top of the photo is the back of my head, bottom of the photo is where my face is. Correspondingly, what is left on the photo would be my right temple.

I will not provide any of my own possible interpretations of the thermal photo. However, you can clearly see that the crown area leaks more heat, as does the right temple - my "bad temple".

Maybe it will be useful to someone.

Full image: http://imageshack.us/a/img13/4145/5g9c.png

View attachment 21635

This is an orientation help:
http://imageshack.us/a/img13/2458/d6z7.png

Pretty effing cool Benjit! What's the legend of the colors? What is the temperature ranges difference?

 

[benjt]

I actually did not post the scale on purpose, cause I don't know how to properly operate those cams and the auto-configured range differed quite a bit during my tries. I don't want to post any data which might lead to misinterpretation or wrong conclusions b/c of human-induced noise.

Anyway, full white is between 31.3 and 31.6 °C. The darkest red on the photo (the "outer rims" of the scalp on the back of my head, i.e. top of the photo) are 24 to 25°, and most of the yellow on the top of my head reads around 29°C (+/- 1). "Medium-red"/orange close to my face is around 27-28 °C.

But as I said, use this info with caution, there might be quite some noise to this data.

 

[bushbush]

I actually did not post the scale on purpose, cause I don't know how to properly operate those cams and the auto-configured range differed quite a bit during my tries. I don't want to post any data which might lead to misinterpretation or wrong conclusions b/c of human-induced noise.

Anyway, full white is between 31.3 and 31.6 °C. The darkest red on the photo (the "outer rims" of the scalp on the back of my head, i.e. top of the photo) are 24 to 25°, and most of the yellow on the top of my head reads around 29°C (+/- 1). "Medium-red"/orange close to my face is around 27-28 °C.

But as I said, use this info with caution, there might be quite some noise to this data.

This would be best done on a totally shaved head, otherwise hair will just block the view of the skin which we are interested in. To draw any conclusions we would would also need (multiple) comparisons with shaved non-male pattern baldness heads.

Also, bear in mind that the reported temperatures on the camera can not be trusted unless you account for ambient temperature, air humidity, distance from the camera, reflectivity, and an emissivity constant of the material (human skin) you are imaging. Failing to account for these, you can only deduce the relative temperature of things - not the absolute values.

 

[TNTS]

nice shot benjt...
I use infrared thermometer for monitoring my scalp temperature after massage and after dr roller.
After massage goes up between 0.5 and 1,2 °C, but after roller sometimes goes up to 2 - 2.5°C
Wish i knew if my scalp is thinner or thicker...

- - - Updated - - -

My bad temple is usually higher in temperature, almost always

 

[Armando Jose]

Hi TNTS
Which is your normal temperature in scalp, measured with infrared thermometer?

- - - Updated - - -

Hi TNTS
Which is your normal temperature in scalp, measured with infrared thermometer?

 

[Sparky4444]

nice shot benjt...
I use infrared thermometer for monitoring my scalp temperature after massage and after dr roller.
After massage goes up between 0.5 and 1,2 °C, but after roller sometimes goes up to 2 - 2.5°C
Wish i knew if my scalp is thinner or thicker...

- - - Updated - - -

My bad temple is usually higher in temperature, almost always

THAT is reeeeally interesting because it feels like my hair and scalp are CHARGED UP the day after rolling...if scalp temperature rises that much, then blood flow must reeeally be increased, I would think...

 

[TNTS]

Hi TNTS
Which is your normal temperature in scalp, measured with infrared thermometer?

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Hi TNTS
Which is your normal temperature in scalp, measured with infrared thermometer?

Crown and back it usually is between 35.4 - 35.6 °C
My good temple 35.7 - 35.8 °C
Bad temple 35.9 - 36.1 °C


I have start measure my scalp temp this summer, 2 months ago, so maybe in the winter things will be different, but i am really curious to see that.


After 3 - 4 min from roller it starts goes down and it usually takes 45 min to an hour to reach the regular temperature.
After vigorously massage, need 8- 10 min. to reach the regular temperature.

- - - Updated - - -

But sometimes the next day from roller my temp is goes up for about 0.5 - 0.7 °C also. (crown area)
But only the next day after roller.
I know that because i measure it if i feel my scalp hot (and usually the next day after roller is hot) and for monitoring inflammation and itching.

 

[Armando Jose]

Thanks for the figures, it seem that your thermometer is very precise....

Could you measure the scalp temperature when the head is in contact with the pillow? is it possible differences in temperature between top or sides of the head?

I am very interested in this topic because sebum, hair fat, is very sensible to temperature and it have a possible role in Androgenetic Alopecia
[h=1]Differential scanning calorimetry studies of sebum models.[/h]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11479654

or http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11917254

or better
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8040615
This study aims to characterize human stratum corneum (SC), focusing on those lipid transitions that occur at or below physiologically relevant temperatures. In the past, a lipid transition near 35 degrees C had been thought to be variable and a consequence of superficial sebaceous lipid contamination. However, analysis here indicates that it is widely present, and cannot be attributed to sebum production. We demonstrate that this transition represents a solid-to-fluid phase change for a discrete subset of SC lipids. The reversibility of this transition upon reheating, and its absence in extracted lipid samples imply that these lipids are not uniformly present throughout the SC, but would appear to be differentially distributed in response to terminal differentiation. Further, such an arrangement could involve a close association with other nonlipid (e.g., protein) components. Evidence for a new transition at approximately 55 degrees C is presented that suggests the loss of crystalline orthorhombic lattice structure. The existence of orthorhombic structure at physiologic temperature is reasoned to involve ceramides and/or free fatty acids. Localization of these lipids at the level of the corneocyte envelope supports a comprehensive picture of water transport across the SC, whereby diffusion occurs primarily via the intercellular lipids. This view, coupled with the hydration-induced changes in lipid disorder observed here provides additional insight into the mechanism by which skin occlusion increases permeability. Summarily, these results i) emphasize the inherent danger of over-interpreting experiments with isolated SC lipids, ii) emphasize the potential advantage(s) of employing several biophysical techniques to study SC structure, and iii) indicate that a full characterization of lipid phase behavior is requisite to our eventual understanding of SC structure and permeability function, particularly those phase transitions that occur near or at normal skin temperature.

 

[benjt]

This would be best done on a totally shaved head, otherwise hair will just block the view of the skin which we are interested in. To draw any conclusions we would would also need (multiple) comparisons with shaved non-male pattern baldness heads.

Also, bear in mind that the reported temperatures on the camera can not be trusted unless you account for ambient temperature, air humidity, distance from the camera, reflectivity, and an emissivity constant of the material (human skin) you are imaging. Failing to account for these, you can only deduce the relative temperature of things - not the absolute values.

This is exactly the reason why I did not provide any legend initially, though I was not as elaborate as you. Either way, we can still see the relative differences, and I thought this is valuable info, as you can clearly see that the pattern is pretty similar to the male pattern baldness pattern, or even identical.

@Armando Jose:
The problem with our thermal/calorimetric photos is that it does not directly show how hot a certain area is, but only how much heat is leaked by that area. This can mean that it is hotter, but does not have to. On the other hand, it can also mean that tissue is thinner there, thus leaking more heat w/o the area actually being hotter.

 

[TNTS]

No problem armando, i will and i let you know.

@ benjt about scalp skin, could you decode this?

The authors studied the thickness of the layers in both normal and bald scalps to determine the effect of aging on baldness. In non-bald subjects, 1) each scalp layer changes with aging; 2) the most noticeable changes are in the layers that contain hair; 3) the condition of the galea is influenced by aging. In bald subjects, 1) in early male pattern alopecia no changes occur in scalp thickness; 2) in advanced baldness, all skin layers except the galea exhibit definite thinning.

http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v58/n6/abs/5617878a.html


It looks Detumescence Therapy has a point...(?)

 

[benjt]

Well, the thinning of tissue would explain why balding areas leak more heat. This was the reason why I took my calorimetric photo in the first place - wanted to confirm this. Because unfortunately, there are contradictory publications on that matter. Some report scalp thickness is reduced [2], some report it is increased [3]. Many studies have found out that scalp in balding areas is struck by fibrosis [1]. Fibrosis will definitely increase the hardness of the skin.

The problem with the study often cited for a decrease in thickness [2] is, though, that it is very old (1972). Since then, biopsy techniques have changed. I definitely don't want to say it is wrong, but given that studies are contradictory, one of the two sides has to be wrong. This was the reason why I took my calorimetric photo.

Also, there has to be some sort of "growth" going on, as male pattern baldness sufferers often have a bigger - or rather, higher - head than non-balding people [7,3]. Unconfirmed speculation was that there is skull expansion going on [7], but as I said, it is not confirmed. On the other hand, growth of some tissue - not necessarily skin (epidermis or dermis) tissue - was confirmed [3].

The model established in [3] for pressure stress finally manages to explain the pattern of male pattern baldness, and this is pretty f*cking awesome. This does not mean that it is necessarily the one correct explanation - there might be another one. Nonetheless, the one in [3] is the only one we got, and thus I will give the scalp massaging a try. There has to be some tissue (or maybe even "grease"), and [3] claims massage can reduce it. Additionally, as pointed out by princessRambo, scalp friction has confirmedly led to regrowth [8]. Finally, thorough massage has vasodilatory functions (like minoxidil) and increases blood flow (like minoxidil). Thus, there are three ways of working (1: friction, 2: tissue/grease destruction, 3: blood flow increase) here which have potential to induce regrowth and hence I will give the detumescence therapy a try. There are three possible reasons to try it, and none not to.

[1]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16755026
[2]: http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v58/n6/abs/5617878a.html
[3]: http://www.omicsonline.org/2155-9554/2155-9554-3-138.php
[4]: http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/299/6/E1016
[5]: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13679-012-0037-4
[6]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1550413113002866
[7]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18789604
[8]: http://www.hypertrichosis.com/hypertrichosis-causes/hypertrichosis-injury-induced.shtml

 

[TNTS]

thank you benjt, massage looks a good challenge...

@armando jose

well this is strange....
I measure all the sides before lay down. It was the usually temperatures that i have already post.
After 10 minutes with my back head against pillow...


My whole head temperature goes down. Even my temples.
The biggest different was in the back of my head and in the crown. (back head was against pillow)


Back head before --- 35.5
crown before ---- 35.6
good temple before ----35.6
bad temple before ----35.9


Back head after ---- 34.1
crown after -----34.3
good temple after----35
bad temple after---- 35.4


I will have to look more, because i had the feeling that after lay down, because of the pillow pressure, the temperature should goes up.
WTF....8O

 

[Armando Jose]

Thank you very much TNTS

is very useful to have performed these measures, the device has very good sensitivity.
The pillow seems to act as a heat sink.
alleged Friction not raise the temperature !


Would it be possible to take measurements just get out of bed?
the back of the head and the sides would be in contact for a few hours
Significant differences will there be then?

TIA

 

[TNTS]

ok i will try not forget it for tomorrow morning before i get up from the bed.

- - - Updated - - -

Thank you very much TNTS

is very useful to have performed these measures, the device has very good sensitivity.
The pillow seems to act as a heat sink.
alleged Friction not raise the temperature !


Would it be possible to take measurements just get out of bed?
the back of the head and the sides would be in contact for a few hours
Significant differences will there be then?

TIA

well, armando, i don't suppose big difference has occurred by whole night pressure, except from the temple (my good temple) that i was sleeping on.


so,
Back head ---- 34.8
crown -----35.1
good temple ----36 (i was sleeping in that side pressing him on the pillow)
bad temple ---- 35.2


i have the feeling that this will not gonna help... Maybe at first the pillow is cold, but from the whole night contact, starts heating, so the scalp temperature affected also.

 

[Sparky4444]

 

[Armando Jose]

ok i will try not forget it for tomorrow morning before i get up from the bed.

- - - Updated - - -



well, armando, i don't suppose big difference has occurred by whole night pressure, except from the temple (my good temple) that i was sleeping on.


so,
Back head ---- 34.8
crown -----35.1
good temple ----36 (i was sleeping in that side pressing him on the pillow)
bad temple ---- 35.2


i have the feeling that this will not gonna help... Maybe at first the pillow is cold, but from the whole night contact, starts heating, so the scalp temperature affected also.

Thank you TNTS
The differences in temp are not big, but if we think in the scalp and the BAT Brown Adipose Tissue to increase temperature Thermogenesis, it interesting denote that your good side have more temp, Possibly more BAT and more flexible), and acording to my theory is the side of the pillow www.againstalopeciaandbaldness.com

 

[S Foote.]

Well, the thinning of tissue would explain why balding areas leak more heat. This was the reason why I took my calorimetric photo in the first place - wanted to confirm this. Because unfortunately, there are contradictory publications on that matter. Some report scalp thickness is reduced [2], some report it is increased [3]. Many studies have found out that scalp in balding areas is struck by fibrosis [1]. Fibrosis will definitely increase the hardness of the skin.

The problem with the study often cited for a decrease in thickness [2] is, though, that it is very old (1972). Since then, biopsy techniques have changed. I definitely don't want to say it is wrong, but given that studies are contradictory, one of the two sides has to be wrong. This was the reason why I took my calorimetric photo.

Also, there has to be some sort of "growth" going on, as male pattern baldness sufferers often have a bigger - or rather, higher - head than non-balding people [7,3]. Unconfirmed speculation was that there is skull expansion going on [7], but as I said, it is not confirmed. On the other hand, growth of some tissue - not necessarily skin (epidermis or dermis) tissue - was confirmed [3].

The model established in [3] for pressure stress finally manages to explain the pattern of male pattern baldness, and this is pretty f*cking awesome. This does not mean that it is necessarily the one correct explanation - there might be another one. Nonetheless, the one in [3] is the only one we got, and thus I will give the scalp massaging a try. There has to be some tissue (or maybe even "grease"), and [3] claims massage can reduce it. Additionally, as pointed out by princessRambo, scalp friction has confirmedly led to regrowth [8]. Finally, thorough massage has vasodilatory functions (like minoxidil) and increases blood flow (like minoxidil). Thus, there are three ways of working (1: friction, 2: tissue/grease destruction, 3: blood flow increase) here which have potential to induce regrowth and hence I will give the detumescence therapy a try. There are three possible reasons to try it, and none not to.

[1]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16755026
[2]: http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v58/n6/abs/5617878a.html
[3]: http://www.omicsonline.org/2155-9554/2155-9554-3-138.php
[4]: http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/299/6/E1016
[5]: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13679-012-0037-4
[6]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1550413113002866
[7]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18789604
[8]: http://www.hypertrichosis.com/hypertrichosis-causes/hypertrichosis-injury-induced.shtml

There are detailed thermal measurements relating to male pattern baldness in this paper

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00636601

The pressure study you reference 3, further supports my contentions in the thread below.

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/showthread.php/71080-The-problem-with-traditional-research

 

[Armando Jose]

This is the abstract of the study of Cabanac
The hypothesis according to which male common baldness has developed in the human species as a compensation for the growth of a beard in order to achieve heat loss has been tested. In 100 clean-shaven men direct measurement of the area of glabrous skin on the forehead and calvaria was found to be proportional to that of the hairy skin on the lips, cheeks, chin and neck. During light hyperthermia the evaporation rate on the bald scalp was 2 to 3 times higher than on the hairy scalp. Conversely the evaporation rate was practically equal on the foreheads and chins of women and unbearded young men, while in adult clean-shaven bearded men it was 40% less on the chin than the forehead. These results support the hypothesis that male baldness is a thermoregulatory compensation for the growth of a beard in adults.

Also this study is interesting
http://www.academia.edu/3214946/Brain_evolution_in_Homo_The_radiator_theory

An this other publicaction of Cabanac
http://www.lboro.ac.uk/microsites/lds/EEC/ICEE/textsearch/92articles/Cabanac1992.pdf