The "Big Three", Their Correlated Diseases, and Natures Cure

OverMachoGrande

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First, to start with the "Big Three";

1. Minoxidil

2. Finasteride

3. Ketaconazole

How do these medications work?

1. Minoxidil, This one works by saturating the scalp till it reaches the bloodstream. Originally treated for High Blood Pressure, many users of the product found that they would grow more hair, or re-grow hair. Once in the bloodstream, it dilates one of the potassium channels, and releases more blood and nutrients through the potassium channel which plays a major role in Hair growth.

(M.P.B. sufferers on average have 2% Blood flow in the scalp, as Non-M.P.B. Sufferers have 10%...)

Minoxidil, chemically is “potassium channel agonist.†Derived from the chemical structure of Nitric oxide (NO), a blood vessel dilator, is a nitric oxide agonist, Minoxidil may also act via release of Guanylate cyclase, an enzyme connected to vasodilation.

Minoxidil tricks the body into thinking it's preforming it's proper duty in ridding your blood system of LDL Cholesterol, Plague, Free-radicals etc..., since the body is receiving these compounds from an outside source, production lessons and becomes limited, hence, those who start rogaine then stop later, experience more shedding, and further hair loss. When the body is tricked this way, it cuts back on natural production and flushing of (NO).

2. Finasteride, This one targets the health of the prostate, changing it's hormonal activity, Originally tested for B.P.H., One of the side effects was hair retention and a lessened of shedding. Finasteride inhibits expression of the enzyme, 5-alpha reductase, which regulates production of dihydrotestosterone (DHT), through treating the enlarged prostate.

(Imbalanced hormone activity is most prevalent in the U.S., and is common among hair loss sufferers).

Finasteride halts production of this enzyme (expression), preventing it to be catalyzed by Testosterone. Though proven effective like rogaine, this should be considered only by older men 40+, Since younger men may develop semi-enlarged prostate during their 20-30's, and can recover naturally.

3. Ketaconazle, Ketoconazole inhibits synthesis of adrenal corticosteroids. Androgenic alopecia has a multi-factorial pathogenesis with an inflammatory reaction caused by a Malassezia fungal infection, Ketaconazole is therapeutic by reducing inflammation through its anti-inflammatory properties and by clearing the adjacent fungal infection.
Ketoconazole shampoo in the treatment of androgenetic alopecia is primarily a function of dihydrotestosterone (DHT) pathway disruption rather than an anti-inflammatory effect. The development of androgenetic alopecia in genetically susceptible individuals has been linked to an overproduction of 5 -reductase and an over expression of androgen receptor, and in rat studies, Ketoconazole has been seen to cause 5 -reductase inhibition.
Additionally, in humans Ketoconazole has also been shown to inhibit the binding of 5 -reductase to sex hormone globulins. All these clinical studies therefore suggest that Ketoconazole may inhibit the production of DHT just like Finasteride. In fact, the effect of Ketoconazole may be two fold, as it has been shown additionally to bind to human androgen receptor.

(Inflammation is a major problem among male pattern baldness sufferers, causing itchiness and heat, whilst choking the hair follicles, limiting their blood supply)

Ketaconazole, destroys any fungal activity at the same time releasing inflammation, it targets micro-flora in it's behavior, changing it's actions in relevance to hair.

~
Now that we have an idea on what these medicines do, it's time we took a look the correlated diseases, which onset male pattern baldness, through 3 main functions;
~

Atherosclerosis:

Atherosclerosis is a slow disease in which your arteries become clogged and hardened. Fat, cholesterol, calcium, and other substances form plaque, which builds up in arteries. Hard plaque narrows the passage that blood flows through. That causes arteries to become hard and inflexible (atherosclerosis is also known as hardening of the arteries). It leads to cardiovascular disease, which is the leading cause of death in people over 45. Soft plaque is more likely to break free from the artery wall and cause a blood clot, which can block blood flow to vital organs.

The effects of atherosclerosis differ depending upon which arteries in the body narrow and become clogged with plaque. If the arteries that bring oxygen-rich blood to your heart are affected, you may have coronary artery disease, chest pain, or a heart attack. If the arteries to your brain are affected, you may have a transient ischemic attack (TIA) or a stroke. If the arteries in your arms or legs are affected, you may develop peripheral artery disease. You may also develop a bulge in the artery wall (aneurysm).

This is what Minoxidil mainly assists with, Minoxidil's (NO) like behavior and vascilodating effect create a temporary relief from arterial plaque in the scalp.

Atherosclerosis occurs when Fat, cholesterol, calcium and other non-flushed substances don't get neutralized by anti-oxidents. In reality, it is LDL cholesterol and free-radicals which form plaque.

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Prostate Enlargement: Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia

The cause of BPH is not well understood. No definite information on risk factors exists. For centuries, it has been known that BPH occurs mainly in older men and that it doesn't develop in men whose testes were removed before puberty. For this reason, some researchers believe that factors related to aging and the testes may spur the development of BPH.

Throughout their lives, men produce both testosterone, an important male hormone, and small amounts of estrogen, a female hormone. As men age, the amount of active testosterone in the blood decreases, leaving a higher proportion of estrogen. Studies done on animals have suggested that BPH may occur because the higher amount of estrogen within the gland increases the activity of substances that promote cell growth.

Another theory focuses on dihydrotestosterone (DHT), a substance derived from testosterone in the prostate, which may help control its growth. Most animals lose their ability to produce DHT as they age. However, some research has indicated that even with a drop in the blood's testosterone level, older men continue to produce and accumulate high levels of DHT in the prostate. This accumulation of DHT may encourage the growth of cells. Scientists have also noted that men who do not produce DHT do not develop BPH.

Some researchers suggest that BPH may develop as a result of “instructions†given to cells early in life. According to this theory, BPH occurs because cells in one section of the gland follow these instructions and “reawaken†later in life. These “reawakened†cells then deliver signals to other cells in the gland, instructing them to grow or making them more sensitive to hormones that influence growth.

This is what Finasteride mainly assists with, Through halting the 5-alpha enzyme from being (expressed) properly , thus, there is no catalyst for tesosterone to become DHT. This is a very dangerous drug, petitioned to be removed, it is now banned in Canada, with a pending class action law suit, (which I'm sure propecia would love to settle our of court), and numerous warnings in the UK. I wouldn't be surprised if they banned it as well.

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Diabetes:

More and more research pinpoints inflammation as a root cause of type 2 diabetes. Type 2 diabetes generally results from the combination of impaired beta cell function and insulin resistance acting on susceptible genes. Originally scientists correlated inflammation to obesity to diabetes, but now, it seems that inflammation even without obesity is the likely culprit. Research by scientists at the University of California, San Diego, and Switzerland's University of Fribourg discovered that inflammation provoked by immune cells called macrophages leads to insulin resistance and then to type 2 diabetes. Their research also showed that obesity without inflammation doesn't result in insulin resistance.

Causes of Diabetes

Diabetes mellitus occurs when the pancreas doesn't make enough or any of the hormone insulin, or when the insulin produced doesn't work effectively. In diabetes, this causes the level of glucose in the blood to be too high.

In Type 1 diabetes the cells in the pancreas that make insulin are destroyed, causing a severe lack of insulin. This is thought to be the result of the body attacking and destroying its own cells in the pancreas - known as an autoimmune reaction.

It's not clear why this happens, but a number of explanations and possible triggers of this reaction have been proposed. These include:

infection with a specific virus or bacteria;
exposure to food-borne chemical toxins; and
exposure as a very young infant to cow's milk

Type 2 diabetes is believed to develop when:

the receptors on cells in the body that normally respond to the action of insulin fail to be stimulated by it - this is known as insulin resistance. In response to this more insulin may be produced, and this over-production exhausts the insulin-manufacturing cells in the pancreas;
there is simply insufficient insulin available; and
the insulin that is available may be abnormal and therefore doesn't work properly.

The following risk factors increase the chances of someone developing Type 2 diabetes:

Increasing age, obesity, and physical inactivity.

This is what Ketaconazole mainly assists with, through destroying inflammation, and the fungi in it's prone moist and warm enviorment, healing becomes easier. By 'cleaning' the micro-flora in the scalp, it lets the hair 'breathe' and recieve proper nourishment.

~
At this point, we now understand how the medicines work, the correlated diseases (being the precursors for needing to use the medicine to help w/ male pattern baldness)

Now it gets more important, as we observe the side-effects of "The Big Three", and how they begin to obstruct and potentially worsen these conditions;
~

1. Minoxidil eases symptoms of arterial plaque through entering the bloodstream, although, once in the blood stream it must flow through the heart, (the heart is what suffers in atherosclerosis) and creating abnormally low blood pressure, (another problem, further inhibiting blood flow), affects the blood and could lead to palpitations. The sensation is akin to extreme tiredness. This will only stress the heart more. Due to it's unnatural chemical compound, the heart tries desperately to rid it by working harder to push it to the next organ in order to flush it (The 'water' system) or Kidney and bladder. this results in a heart over-worked with no real excersize, abnormally low blood pressure, and possibly further strain to the Lungs (due to increased oxygen intake to help the heart with it's duties in moving the blood toxin out).

This may further the onset of atherosclerosis, blood toxicity, heart failure, heart attack and stroke.

2. Finasteride eases the prostate enlargement, which is found in most men, and even in young men (although young men do not need finasteride at their age). After being processed by the liver, Finasteride makes it's way to the 'water' system, where it moves into the prostate and prevents an important natural enzyme from being (expressed) properly, through the unnatural down regulation of the 5-alpha reductase. This in turn effects the reproductive organs through not getting it's proper compounds to create healthy semen, thus, impotence, erectile dysfunction, decreased libido (sex drive), abnormal ejaculation, including decreased ejaculate amount. The real problem here is it's estrogen like factor, promoting poorer quality semen, which would naturally go to the prostate to regulate it, and in turn the prostate re-regulating the sexual center back. This then stresses the Kidneys, and hurts the adrenal glands. Besides it limiting your extremely important testosterone producer, and your organisms natural elixir, the liver can become strained from dealing with this chemical compund.

This may further the hormonal imbalance already seen in BPH sufferers, resulting in Infertility, Low T levels, High E levels, Liver toxicity and numerous problems in the reproductive organs. Long term may prove problems for the brain as well.

3. Ketaconazole relieves inflammation and wipes out all natural moisture (being a chemical anti-fungal compound) It deals with the micro-floras activities when applied to the scalp, and dries everything out (so no fungi can survive) through attacking white blood cells causing the inflammation. Since it dries out the skin so bad, the air system (lungs) can be affected, but really what ketaconazole effects most is the stomach through attacking the micro-flora, (the micro-flora are connection points to the flora in your stomach) Hence the stomach may revolt when it detects the medication, seeing it as an outside intruder, harming the micro-flora, in return, pushing more white blood cells, creating more inflammation.

This can hurt natural cooling and lubricant structures in the scalp, and can damage mucous membranes by killing off more than just fungi, this can hurt the breathing system through killing vital micro-components in the skin. Rash, itching/swelling (especially of the face/tongue/throat), severe dizziness and trouble breathing.

~
Now we know the potential deadly short-long term effects of "the big three"

Finally, we look towards Natural Medicine, It's "Big three", and how these natural cures are just as effective (if not more), designed to reverse the 3 diseases, and re-gain hair, w/out worrying about life time use or side effects.
~

1. Polyphenols - Main sources are pomegranete, dark chocolate 70%+ pure, apples, grapes, green tea and red wine. POM and red wine are highest content.

many evaluations have been done in Japan regarding polyphenols
http://www.applepolyphenols.com/
it was found to be as much as 300% more effective than minoxidil.

Polyphenols act as a vascilodator and an anti-inflammatory, they encourage the release of (NO), in turn naturally dilating blood vessels, cleansing free-radicals (inhibiting the formation of plaque), and lower LDL-cholesterol, through these mechanisms, they body can stop inflammation.

2.Saw palmetto and Lycopene - Main sources of Lycopene are Watermelon, Grapefruit, and Tomatoes.

Harvard study (3) of 47,000 men in 2003 found that men who ate 10 servings per week of tomatos cut their risk of developing aggressive prostate cancer by 50%. Researchers believe this decrease in cancer risk is due to the lycopene in the tomatoes - the pigment that gives tomatoes their red color. We now know that lycopene is the most powerful carotene discovered yet, with 10 times more antioxidant power than beta carotene.

First, Saw palmetto should be taken if you are an older man, Lycopene rich foods for both young and old.

Lycopene when absorbed from the stomach, lycopene is transported in the blood by various lipoproteins and accumulates in the liver, adrenal glands, and testes. Lycopene enters the prostate and with it's anti-oxidizing properties, removes free-radicals, and unneeded hormones, thus, promoting better function.

Saw palmettos main source is beta-sisoterol, which acts similar to Finasteride, although, all the natural catalysts are still connected since it's in it's original form, this is safer, less side effects, and highly effective for the prostate, although should be considered more if mid-life+,

3. Aloe vera - Single source, power plant.

referenced in biblical texts, and torah. The Aloe vera plant was also depicted in 'the garden of eden', lined against the walk ways.

Aloe vera is an extremely powerful anti-inflammatory agent, and can be very nourishing for the stomach, and whole body. Aloe vera works by expelling excess heat and moistening dryness, though what is amazing about Aloe vera is it 'balances' Hot/cold & damp/dry, it acts as a dual effect if your too far one side of the spectrum. Earlier in regards to diabetes, researchers found a major precursor to be inflammation, since the insulin problems are caused by the spleen/pancreas, the stomach sufferers dearly, since the stomach/spleen/pancreas work together as a triad. Aloe vera heals the flora in your stomach, making it able to properly digest, and further assisting the spleen/pancreas in it's actions of producing good insulin. Aloe vera applied to the scalp works similarly in the micro-flora as to relieve the heat, but keeping the needed moisture in, making this extremely beneficial for inflammation and it's hair loss counterpart.

Finally the most important miracle elixer there is, your sperm.
By learning to retain said essence, the body will utilize it and it's properties designed specifically to help you.

First, the retained sperm flows through the prostate signaling no DHT needs to be had, or Estrogen be made, so the prostate goes on, non-enlarged, producing proper healthy enzymes without mutating Testosterone into a quick replacement part for it's sub-normal levels in the body.

Second, The essence enters the stomach region, as the stomach will soon distribute it through out the whole body as an energy source, healing flora, micro-flora, and removing inflammation.

Third, the essence enters the blood for full use, it's healthy T levels re balance the blood, and helps the heart pump strong, all along moving LDL, free-radicals and arterial plaque out!

Finally, the essence is sent to every part of the body to make it stronger, then when it has been used, circles into the kidney, where it can be re used again, with the same effectiveness!
Retention and Circulating this energy is Key.

The Big Three; (Use green tea as base to increase benefits, improve absorption, and attain better results,)

1. Polyphenols - Pomegranette w/Green Tea, Red Wine (French), Apples, Grapes, and Pears
2. Lycopene and/or Saw Palmetto, - Watermelon, Tomato (Juice too)
3. Aloe vera -- Gel topically, Drink unsweetend (2 weeks on, 1 week off)

References:

1. http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=57690

2. http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=57691

3. http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=57690

All links provide various articles submitted into PubMed, and are Credible from such source.
 

dpdr

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You are drinking the gel of Aloe vera ? I hit the blender the whole sheet and then drink
 

guitar66

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I really dig your concept of the big three, however I disagree with the sperm retention thing. I think "overdoing it" will be draining to your body, however I am in the school of thought that regular, healthy amounts of sex are beneficial to the mind and body (stress levels, sex drive, hormonal regulation etc)
 

OverMachoGrande

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WOW! Now this is a darn good post. It does make perfect sense.

Everyone who is balding should realize that the "big three" diseases associated with male pattern baldness are: atherosclerosis, prostate enlargement, and diabetes. So it would make sense to attack these three diseases as part of your regimen.

Atherosclerosis can be attacked using diet; eating low fat, no cholesterol and high fiber diet. Caldwell Esselstyn reversed atherosclerosis using voodoo magick...I mean, a low-fat-vegan diet. Red wine also decreases atherosclerosis.

Diabetes can be attacked using diet.

Prostate enlargement is caused by estrogen.

So instead of taking prescription drugs that only cure the symptoms...wouldn't it make sense to get to the root of the problem?

Lord_Justin13 is 100% right about this. He is pretty much saying what I've been saying this whole time; don't use synthetic man made drugs that only cover the symptoms and cause nasty side effects like impotence, use natural holistic medicine; diet/lifestyle changes can greatly improve all three of these nasty diseases, red-wine will reverse atherosclerosis, beta-sitosterol and phytoestrogens will reverse prostate enlargement, diet/lifestyle changes will reverse diabetes.
 

OverMachoGrande

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dpdr said:
You are drinking the gel of Aloe vera ? I hit the blender the whole sheet and then drink

Yeah, I usually buy a couple of gallons (online) since it's much cheaper, and not drowned in sugar. Blenders not bad idea though!

guitar66 said:
I really dig your concept of the big three, however I disagree with the sperm retention thing. I think "overdoing it" will be draining to your body, however I am in the school of thought that regular, healthy amounts of sex are beneficial to the mind and body (stress levels, sex drive, hormonal regulation etc)

Well, yes, technically healthy amounts are good (also important is the women your sleeping with, the connection you have, how shes maintained herself etc...)
It is said a 'healthy' level of masturbation is 2-3 times a week.... I increasingly see guys suffering form male pattern baldness, release this energy in many cases several times daily. To recharge the same amount of this life force (1 emission), equates to generally a week of retention. (further, we have not been taught how to cycle the energy effectively), so many build up, but much of it isn't used by the body because over the years, we have trained the body to send the essence to the ruins. This is why chi-gung is so important.

So if your able to learn to retain, and cycle the energy efficiently, it will boost health, rebuild collagen, hair and general health

We keep over stressing the kidneys by not letting it recharge with the essence, though the sexual center stays in good health, the rest of the body isn't receiving this life fluid. Since we suffer from over-used sexual activities, it is safe and healthy to practice retention, and harvesting the energy.
 

OverMachoGrande

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misterE said:
WOW! Now this is a darn good post. It does make perfect sense.

Thank you, I spent a while compiling all this info, and with some help from your posts, I investigated further, finding these correlations to be accurate, in western and eastern texts.

misterE said:
So instead of taking prescription drugs that only cure the symptoms...wouldn't it make sense to get to the root of the problem?

Yes, and these exact drugs work to worsen the situation, not better it.
Yet, the natural substitutes work as effectively, and reverse the diseases and their symptoms (male pattern baldness), all at the same time providing you with a permanent long term effect, and bettering health overall.
 

Bryan

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Lord_Justin13 said:
2. Finasteride, This one targets the health of the prostate, changing it's hormonal activity, Originally tested for B.P.H., One of the side effects was hair retention and a lessened of shedding.

Are you suggesting or implying that finasteride for hairloss was some sort of "accidental discovery"? :) See the first section of my signature file below!

Lord_Justin13 said:
Finasteride inhibits expression of the enzyme, 5-alpha reductase, which regulates production of dihydrotestosterone (DHT), through treating the enlarged prostate... Finasteride halts production of this enzyme, preventing it to be catalyzed by Testosterone.

Really? Do you have a reference or citation showing that?

Lord_Justin13 said:
Additionally, in humans Ketoconazole has also been shown to inhibit the binding of 5 -reductase to sex hormone globulins.

You're claiming that 5a-reductase binds to SHBG? Really? :)

Lord_Justin13 said:
This is what Finasteride mainly assists with, Through halting the 5-alpha enzyme from being created, thus, there is no catalyst for tesosterone to become DHT.

Again, please give us a medical reference or citation that supports that claim.

Lord_Justin13 said:
After being processed by the liver, Finasteride makes it's way to the 'water' system, where it moves into the prostate and prevents an important natural enzyme from being created, through the unnatural down regulation of the 5-alpha reductase.

AGAIN: give us a medical reference or citation for that.
 

Bryan

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misterE said:
Ketoconazole selectively displaces DHT and estradiol from SHBG; I believe this is what he meant.

Let's wait to hear his own response; but in the meantime, the best advice I could give him is to be very careful and SAY what he MEANS.
 

OverMachoGrande

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Bryan said:
You're claiming that 5a-reductase binds to SHBG? Really?

Please note:
http://www.androgeneticalopecia.com/hai ... ness.shtml

Research studies show that Ketoconazole can interfere with steroidogenesis in patients and rat in vitro systems by inhibiting Cytochrome P450 dependant enzymes. The interaction of Ketoconazole with Cytochrome P450 at the heme iron site in several organs, including gonads and adrenals, may result in destruction of the heme portion (molecule containing iron) of Cytochrome P450, thereby inhibiting Cytochrome P-450 and effectively suppresses testicular and adrenal androgen production.

the article continues...

However, another school of thought believes that the clinical efficacy of Ketoconazole shampoo in the treatment of androgenetic alopecia is primarily a function of dihydrotestosterone (DHT) pathway disruption rather than an anti-inflammatory effect. The development of androgenetic alopecia in genetically susceptible individuals has been linked to an overproduction of 5 -reductase and an over expression of androgen receptor, and in rat studies, Ketoconazole has been seen to cause 5 -reductase inhibition. Additionally, in humans Ketoconazole has also been shown to inhibit the binding of 5 -reductase to sex hormone globulins. All these clinical studies therefore suggest that Ketoconazole may inhibit the production of DHT just like Finasteride. In fact, the effect of Ketoconazole may be two fold, as it has been shown additionally to bind to human androgen receptor, having a distinct advantage over Finasteride. Therefore these authors believe that Ketoconazole inhibits the pathway that leads to the characteristic miniaturization of hair follicles in androgenetic alopecia by inhibiting DHT and/or inhibiting the binding of DHT to AR.

~

After being processed by the liver, Finasteride makes it's way to the 'water' system, where it moves into the prostate and prevents an important natural enzyme from being created, through the unnatural down regulation of the 5-alpha reductase.


AGAIN: give us a medical reference or citation for that.

10th grade, Human Biology, But hey, maybe I'm wrong, I mean it could be eaten by the liver, then moved to the lungs where you exhale the drug. :(


Lord_Justin13 wrote:
This is what Finasteride mainly assists with, Through halting the 5-alpha enzyme from being created, thus, there is no catalyst for tesosterone to become DHT.


Again, please give us a medical reference or citation that supports that claim.

http://www.ftmguide.org/hairloss.html#finasteride


Lord_Justin13 wrote:
2. Finasteride, This one targets the health of the prostate, changing it's hormonal activity, Originally tested for B.P.H., One of the side effects was hair retention and a lessened of shedding.


Are you suggesting or implying that finasteride for hairloss was some sort of "accidental discovery"? See the first section of my signature file below!

Finasteride was first developed to shrink enlarged prostate glands
http://www.swedish.org/15182.cfm

Originally developed as a treatment for prostate gland enlargement, Finasteride is a drug that is now also used for the treatment of male pattern baldness (male hair loss).
http://www.turtlebt.com/male-breasts/fi ... -hair-loss

Lord_Justin13 wrote:
Finasteride inhibits expression of the enzyme, 5-alpha reductase, which regulates production of dihydrotestosterone (DHT), through treating the enlarged prostate... Finasteride halts production of this enzyme, preventing it to be catalyzed by Testosterone.


Really? Do you have a reference or citation showing that?

Lastly, I'd like to say, please don't mis-quote me, or remove a part of my quote, to change it from it's original structure, in the sentance, and further, in the paragraph. What I said was...

Finasteride inhibits expression of the enzyme, 5-alpha reductase, which regulates production of dihydrotestosterone (DHT), through treating the enlarged prostate.

How is this untrue? That's exactly what finasteride does, stops the 5-alpha-reductase from acting as a 'exchanger', changing T to DHT, through stopping T to DHT, hair loss is seized partially.

Finasteride halts production of this enzyme, preventing it to be catalyzed by Testosterone.

I'm sorry, let me clearly re-phrase that;

Finasteride halts production of this enzymes expression, preventing it to be catalyzed by testosterone.

That is what it does, as cited at other sources, and I'm sure you can find more, easily.

You see, after sifting through the mindless, flooded websites, all saying the same plagiarized garbage. it became quite repetitive, the message is still clear about what and how finasteride works

It is clear when I said;
Finasteride inhibits expression of the enzyme, 5-alpha reductase, which regulates production of dihydrotestosterone (DHT), through treating the enlarged prostate.

Now...
I have a couple of questions for you,



1) No, damnit, finasteride for hairloss was NOT an "accidental discovery".

Please show some medical references or citation. :)

3) No, washing your skin does NOT make it produce more sebum.

Please show some medical references or citation. :)
 

OverMachoGrande

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Lord_Justin13 said:
misterE,

Ketoconazole selectively displaces DHT and estradiol from SHBG; I believe this is what he meant.

http://aac.asm.org/cgi/reprint/23/2/207.pdf

For the most, that is what I meant., altough, this further validates my original statement.

Watch out for Brayn, his motives are very suspicious to me...I think he is here on this website (and others) to keep people confused and to throw them off "the right path". Why else would he spend so much time and effort arguing about everything on this website...and many others too? Making mommy proud? I think he is a mole from a drug company sent here and other hairloss forums to keep people from believing that diet affects hormones or estrogen is actually bad for the hair, heart, prostate and down-right manliness.

Either that or he is on a mission to emasculate men!
 

Bryan

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Lord_Justin13 said:
Bryan said:
You're claiming that 5a-reductase binds to SHBG? Really?

Please note:
http://www.androgeneticalopecia.com/hai ... ness.shtml

However, another school of thought believes that the clinical efficacy of Ketoconazole shampoo in the treatment of androgenetic alopecia is primarily a function of dihydrotestosterone (DHT) pathway disruption rather than an anti-inflammatory effect. The development of androgenetic alopecia in genetically susceptible individuals has been linked to an overproduction of 5 -reductase and an over expression of androgen receptor, and in rat studies, Ketoconazole has been seen to cause 5 -reductase inhibition. Additionally, in humans Ketoconazole has also been shown to inhibit the binding of 5 -reductase to sex hormone globulins.[...]

I'll have to let you off the hook for that, since you were only quoting the link above. However, what they say is ridiculous. SHBG doesn't bind to 5a-reductase! :) What they probably MEANT to say is that ketoconazole inhibits the binding of SHBG to sex hormones, which is obviously quite another matter. They got their facts all screwed-up!

Lord_Justin13 said:
After being processed by the liver, Finasteride makes it's way to the 'water' system, where it moves into the prostate and prevents an important natural enzyme from being created, through the unnatural down regulation of the 5-alpha reductase.

AGAIN: give us a medical reference or citation for that.

10th grade, Human Biology, But hey, maybe I'm wrong, I mean it could be eaten by the liver, then moved to the lungs where you exhale the drug. :(

What the hell is THAT supposed to mean? Do you have a medical reference, or not?

Lord_Justin13 said:
Lord_Justin13 wrote:
This is what Finasteride mainly assists with, Through halting the 5-alpha enzyme from being created, thus, there is no catalyst for tesosterone to become DHT.

Again, please give us a medical reference or citation that supports that claim.

http://www.ftmguide.org/hairloss.html#finasteride

There is nothing at that link which supports your claim.

Lord_Justin13 said:
Lord_Justin13 wrote:
2. Finasteride, This one targets the health of the prostate, changing it's hormonal activity, Originally tested for B.P.H., One of the side effects was hair retention and a lessened of shedding.

Are you suggesting or implying that finasteride for hairloss was some sort of "accidental discovery"? See the first section of my signature file below!

Finasteride was first developed to shrink enlarged prostate glands
http://www.swedish.org/15182.cfm

Originally developed as a treatment for prostate gland enlargement, Finasteride is a drug that is now also used for the treatment of male pattern baldness (male hair loss).
http://www.turtlebt.com/male-breasts/fi ... -hair-loss

Finasteride was first marketed as a drug to treat BPH, but that doesn't mean that its use to treat male pattern baldness was any kind of "accidental discovery". In fact, it definitely was NOT. Merck had originally developed finasteride as a possible way to treat a number of androgen-related diseases, including male pattern baldness, hirsutism, BPH, and acne. The reason that it hit the market first as a drug for BPH is probably that BPH is a more serious medical condition than those other things.

Lord_Justin13 said:
Lord_Justin13 wrote:
Finasteride inhibits expression of the enzyme, 5-alpha reductase, which regulates production of dihydrotestosterone (DHT), through treating the enlarged prostate... Finasteride halts production of this enzyme, preventing it to be catalyzed by Testosterone.

Really? Do you have a reference or citation showing that?

Lastly, I'd like to say, please don't mis-quote me, or remove a part of my quote, to change it from it's original structure, in the sentance, and further, in the paragraph. What I said was...

[quote:2m04n7y7]Finasteride inhibits expression of the enzyme, 5-alpha reductase, which regulates production of dihydrotestosterone (DHT), through treating the enlarged prostate.

How is this untrue? That's exactly what finasteride does, stops the 5-alpha-reductase from acting as a 'exchanger', changing T to DHT, through stopping T to DHT, hair loss is seized partially.

Finasteride halts production of this enzyme, preventing it to be catalyzed by Testosterone.

I'm sorry, let me clearly re-phrase that;

Finasteride halts production of this enzymes expression, preventing it to be catalyzed by testosterone.

That is what it does, as cited at other sources, and I'm sure you can find more, easily.

You see, after sifting through the mindless, flooded websites, all saying the same plagiarized garbage. it became quite repetitive, the message is still clear about what and how finasteride works

It is clear when I said;
Finasteride inhibits expression of the enzyme, 5-alpha reductase, which regulates production of dihydrotestosterone (DHT), through treating the enlarged prostate.
[/quote:2m04n7y7]

WRONG. Finasteride doesn't inhibit the expression of the enzyme 5a-reductase. What it does is inhibit the enzyme itself! It binds to the enzyme, preventing it from converting testosterone into DHT. If you don't understand the difference between those two concepts (inhibiting an enzyme once its produced, and stopping the PRODUCTION of an enzyme), I'd strongly suggest that you do some serious study before making a lengthy post full of inaccuracies and misinformation.

Lord_Justin13 said:
Now...
I have a couple of questions for you,

1) No, damnit, finasteride for hairloss was NOT an "accidental discovery".

Please show some medical references or citation. :)

Below are a couple of posts (made on two different occasions) by Jonathon Fromme, over on HLH a few years ago. He is a doctor (pathologist), and wrote these things in support of what I'd been saying over there about the popular Urban Myth that finasteride was supposedly an "accidental discovery":

"Bryan is right--finasteride was CLEARLY designed to treat male pattern baldness. I wrote about this 5 years ago on this site, but I'm not sure the record is available.

"To reiterate, the evidence is the following: Merck published a paper in the middle of May or June 1988 concerning the use of a precusor drug (4-MA; a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor) in preventing male pattern baldness in macaques (animal model for male pattern baldness in humans). The study was 20 months in length. As it takes about 6 months to 1 year after a paper is submitted until it gets published and Merck had to spend some time planning and writing the paper (a few months to a year), the scientists at Merck were clearly thinking about the use of 5-alpha reductase inhibitors in the early to mid 1980s. As finasteride was patented in 1984 (or about this time) and approved for used in BPH in 1992, its use in humans would not have occured in clinical trials until the late 1980's. In other words, the potential utility of 5-alpha reductase inhibitors in male pattern baldness was being discussed at Merck before a human ever took finasteride."

--------------------------------

"Finasteride was origninally designed to treat both BPH and male pattern baldness, and the proof is in the literature; it was NOT found by 'accident' to be of value in male pattern baldness in patients originally treated for BPH. In the landmark paper on inherited 5-alpha reductase deficency, Imperato-McGinley et al (Imperato-McGinley et al., Steroid 5-alpha reductase deficency in man: an inherited form of male pseudohermaphroditism, Science, 186, 1213-1215, 1974) noted that men with this disease don't develop prostate problems and don't lose their hair. You can see the Merck researchers seeing this and thinking they can make more money if they design a single drug to treat both conditions, which is what they did. In their paper from 1987 (Rittmaster et al, The Effects of N,N-Dimethyl-4-Methyl-3-Oxo-4-Aza-5- alpha Androstane- 17beta- Carboxanide, a 5-alpha Reductase Inhibitor and Antiandrogen, on the Development of Baldness in the Stumptail Macaque. J. Clin. Endo. Met., 65, 188-193), they studied the value of using a precursor to finasteride (abbreviated 4-MA) in treating male pattern baldness in the macaque, a model for human male pattern baldness. How does this prove that finasteride was also designed to treat male pattern baldness? The study was submitted in January, 1987 and was a 27-month study of the macaques. Thus at the very latest Merck researchers were thinking about the use of a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor in male pattern baldness in late 1984. This doesn't account for the planning done to create the study, demonstrating that Merck was thinking about the use of a 5-alpha Reductase Inhibitor in male pattern baldness from the early to mid 1980's, long before finasteride was ever synthesized."

Lord_Justin13 said:
3) No, washing your skin does NOT make it produce more sebum.

Please show some medical references or citation. :)

Below is an excerpt from a medical book presenting some of the early evidence (included is its own reference, at the bottom of the page). Besides that, there is also additional evidence which consists of even newer tests and studies, all verifying the one below. But this one should be sufficient for you:

"Sebum secretion and sebaceous lipids." - published in Dermatologic Clinics, Vol. 1, No. 3, July 1983.

"... These observations gave rise to a long-lived fallacy (1927-1957) that was posthumously christened the "feedback theory" by Kligman and Shelley (23). The idea was that sebaceous glands secrete only when necessary to replenish lipid that has been wiped or washed away. Nothing known about the physiology of sebaceous glands gives any theoretical support to this concept, and it has been thoroughly disproved experimentally (23). Sebum is secreted continuously. The reason that lipid levels eventually cease to increase apparently is that the skin can hold only a certain amount of lipid in its crevices, and the rest tends to flow away from sites of high sebum production (23)."

23) Kligman, A. M., and Shelley, W. B.: "An Investigation of the Biology of the Human Sebaceous Gland". Journal of Investigative Dermatology, 30:99-124, 1958.
 

Nickel

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Lord_Justin13 interesting stuff there,

could you tell us more about how to make this big 3 into real treatment,

1. Polyphenols - could you specify a product

2. Lycopene - this should be supplemented with extract in pills?

3. Aloe vera - i should buy aloa vera juice?

Thanks
 

OverMachoGrande

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Bryan said:
Lord_Justin13 wrote:
Bryan wrote:
You're claiming that 5a-reductase binds to SHBG? Really?


Please note:
http://www.androgeneticalopecia.com/hai ... ness.shtml

However, another school of thought believes that the clinical efficacy of Ketoconazole shampoo in the treatment of androgenetic alopecia is primarily a function of dihydrotestosterone (DHT) pathway disruption rather than an anti-inflammatory effect. The development of androgenetic alopecia in genetically susceptible individuals has been linked to an overproduction of 5 -reductase and an over expression of androgen receptor, and in rat studies, Ketoconazole has been seen to cause 5 -reductase inhibition. Additionally, in humans Ketoconazole has also been shown to inhibit the binding of 5 -reductase to sex hormone globulins.[...]


I'll have to let you off the hook for that, since you were only quoting the link above. However, what they say is ridiculous. SHBG doesn't bind to 5a-reductase! What they probably MEANT to say is that ketoconazole inhibits the binding of SHBG to sex hormones, which is obviously quite another matter. They got their facts all screwed-up!

Is that your opinion?
How is what they say ridiculous?
Please provide evidence to support your claim.

Bryan said:
Lord_Justin13 wrote:
Quote:
After being processed by the liver, Finasteride makes it's way to the 'water' system, where it moves into the prostate and prevents an important natural enzyme from being created, through the unnatural down regulation of the 5-alpha reductase.

AGAIN: give us a medical reference or citation for that.


10th grade, Human Biology, But hey, maybe I'm wrong, I mean it could be eaten by the liver, then moved to the lungs where you exhale the drug.


What the hell is THAT supposed to mean? Do you have a medical reference, or not?

It means what I said, it's in regards to how the human body naturally functions, I can't help how food/water is processed.

Bryan said:
Lord_Justin13 wrote:
Quote:
Lord_Justin13 wrote:
This is what Finasteride mainly assists with, Through halting the 5-alpha enzyme from being created, thus, there is no catalyst for tesosterone to become DHT.

Again, please give us a medical reference or citation that supports that claim.


http://www.ftmguide.org/hairloss.html#finasteride

There is nothing at that link which supports your claim.

let's take another look shall we?

from the website cited above....,

The drug Finasteride was initially prescribed to men in the United States under the drug name "Proscar" to treat enlarged prostate glands. A side effect of the medication was that it caused hair growth in a significant number of the patients. It is now marketed in the U.S. as "Propecia" to treat mild to moderate hair loss in men.

Ok, ready to read the words with me?

Finasteride is a type II 5-alpha reductase inhibitor. Type II 5-alpha reductase (type II 5aR) is an enzyme that is responsible for converting testosterone into DHT (described in detail above). Finasteride blocks the action of type II 5aR, thereby inhibiting DHT production in the hair follicles. A daily dose of 1mg can effectively lower DHT levels by as much as 60%.

Let me repeat that,

Finasteride is a type II 5-alpha reductase inhibitor.

Finasteride blocks the action of type II 5aR.

Hmm....

Bryan said:
WRONG. Finasteride doesn't inhibit the expression of the enzyme 5a-reductase. What it does is inhibit the enzyme itself!

When it inhibits the enzyme, it's expression is inhibited. The enzyme still exists, and now with out it's original activity. It is the same meaning, Through the enzyme being 'inhibited', it's actions and expressions are also inhibited.

Bryan, as far as this goes, your only nitpicking at what I already meant.


Below are a couple of posts (made on two different occasions) by Jonathon Fromme, over on HLH a few years ago. He is a doctor (pathologist), and wrote these things in support of what I'd been saying over there about the popular Urban Myth that finasteride was supposedly an "accidental discovery":

"Bryan is right--finasteride was CLEARLY designed to treat male pattern baldness. I wrote about this 5 years ago on this site, but I'm not sure the record is available.

I'm sorry, without any medical record, this 'doctor' and you, have no valid proof on the discovery of Finasteride. Consequently, the information I have found shows that Finasteride, was originally treated for enlarged prostate, and upon their use, discovered it's hair growth side effects.

Bryan said:
"Sebum secretion and sebaceous lipids." - published in Dermatologic Clinics, Vol. 1, No. 3, July 1983.

This was nearly 30 years ago.
Are you claiming that scientific medical research has reached it's peak, and no new discoveries can be made?!

Bryan said:
The reason that lipid levels eventually cease to increase apparently is that the skin can hold only a certain amount of lipid in its crevices, and the rest tends to flow away from sites of high sebum production (23)."

Interesting, so, if I were to wash out the sebum, wouldn't production continue, until the skin couldn't hold anymore....?

Listen shills, first, this forum wasn't created for a debate on the discovery of Finasteride, or whether you can't understand what the post means.
Let me help you understand something, after sifting through your companies 5,000 websites, reading on how propecia so wonderful, I continued writing, and made a grammatical error, that's it, a grammatical error. After seeing (INHIBIT), (RENDERS USELESS) etc.. I just worte down what they said, what YOUR companies said.

You know what, perhaps misterE's on to something here, why do you have doctors supporting your claims now?

Sir, I am compelled to ask exactly what it is you do? nearly 6,000 posts, continuous nay-saying of modern research, this bothers me, I suppose only the research you find is valid then?

Oh, and I believe I saw your same name (spelled exactly the same), at another hair loss website.

You need to understand the needs of people in regards to medicine is changing, and as medical science continues to further research these conditions, we find New Treatments, Studies, and Discoveries

Do they have you stationed in Texas, since you can take advantage of some good conservative laws down there, where the company can protect you if you're caught?

Oh yea, and there's an ongoing suspicion that you may be creating several screen names, and flooding this good informative website with more propoganda, and posing to be others, though, I hope that's not true!

Hope to hear from you soon
 

OverMachoGrande

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Nickel said:
Lord_Justin13 interesting stuff there,

could you tell us more about how to make this big 3 into real treatment,

1. Polyphenols - could you specify a product

2. Lycopene - this should be supplemented with extract in pills?

3. Aloe vera - i should buy aloa vera juice?

Thanks

1. Polyphenols, the highest source is Pomegranate, POM drinks are goods, and any organic, glass bottled poure pomegranate juice is good as well. I've been using POM with great success so far.

2. Lycopene, don't go for extract or supplements, you generally don't know how good the ingrediants are, and if it's exact to the label, since there are no strict laws on these items. Watermelon in season is awesome for this, otherwise tomatoes and ketchup are also good.

3. Aloe Vera, absolutley go buy a couple of gallons, unsweetened, and further, I also use aloe vera gel to rub on my scalp, rub it in and leaves it for 5-10 mins, then rinse it out. It is very cooling and a powerful anti-inflammatory.

Your Welcome!
 

keephair

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Alright I've been following some post's on this forum and I just had to join in the posting. I am a new user myself so I'm just getting to know the website, (which is a good one by the way), and also male pattern baldness itself and it's treatments. However I am a third year med school student and I do dare say that I have a much better idea of how medical treatments work and what is actually effective against male pattern baldness. I am also a "sufferer" myself fellas.


Lord_Justin13

You seems like a pretty enthusiastic smart guy and the type that actually does research on things. However judging by your posts that is all you are. You are not a doctor or a scientist, which is what you need to be to give people advice on new treatments for male pattern baldness.
These are real facts: exercise and eating a balanced diet of fresh non processed foods is important, however if you are genetically predisposed, you will go bald without medical treatments no matter what. Don't kid yourself, there are only three or I should say two proven methods that can prevent and reverse premature balding:
5 alpha reductase inhibitors (ie finasteride) and minoxidil.
I know that you, as a smart guy who does research, must have seen the evidence, because it's widely available and can be confirmed. They do give side effects sometimes, but they are the only proven methods that actually work.
The regimen that you recommend sounds really healthy and can probably be backed by a few articles, but where's the proof that it really works against male pattern baldness? Has it actually worked for you or anyone you know? I'm guessing that probably not. At least you don't show any pictures or proof of it like the guys using minoxidil and finasteride do. See if it did work do you honestly think that doctors would prescribe propecia or minoxidil would sell at all? No one wants those side effects, but the drugs have been proven to work and statistically speaking the side effects affect only a minority of patients. Just like some people can't tolerate penicillin which can be a great antibiotic.



Mister E

No, not all doctors and scientists are evil, heartless and out only for themselves. A lot of them are human beings going through the same problems as you and I, so don't go into this whole everyone is out to get us and it's all going to hell conspiracy theory routine. Trust me even the CEOs of all these greedy companies such as Merck want to keep their hair without suffering permanent and/or life altering damages.
As for the whole men are becoming more feminized posts and video link that you put up, it is true, but we are doing something about it. For example in the European Union common feminizing chemicals such as phalates have been banned. Damage has been done, but finasteride and minoxidil are still not the biggest problems in that whole issue, it has more to do with controlling general feminizing pollutants in the environment being released in our environment.
Also you seem like a pretty negative guy in the first place, you should probably get out into the world and enjoy it some more, instead of worrying about things that might happen. Exercise, eat right and go out with friends in the real world, it's one of the best therapies in life what ever your worry may be.


Lastly no I'm not an employee for some drug company. Personally I hate the idea of making a profit from selling pharmaceuticals, but in this day and age some people do it unfortunately.
Keep in mind though that modern western medicine is still based on years of rigorous experimenting not just theory. Not only that, but it's also under constant scrutiny by the government and the public. If a medication is dangerous it is pulled off the market in most developed countries. If it hasn't been proven to work in this way, then it's not a proper medical treatment and it's highly likely that any observed beneficial effect is a placebo effect or very much exaggerated.


Wow guess I wrote quite a bit, but I think that it needed to be said.

Trust me guys if you're going bald and hating it there are hundreds of millions of men who are there with you.
 

OverMachoGrande

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use your head said:
However judging by your posts that is all you are.

I assume you judge a books quality based on it's cover as well?

use your head said:
You are not a doctor or a scientist, which is what you need to be to give people advice on new treatments for male pattern baldness.

First, I've had a love for science especially quantum mechanics/physics and meta-physics since my early childhood. Both my grandparents on my mothers side are/were great doctors. My grandfather served the prime-minister of Ukraine in removing his tonsils. he was famed for being the best ear, nose and throat doctor, my grandmother whom is still living, is a brilliant women and an excellent pediatrician, as I have had this 'male pattern baldness' issue for near 4 years now, I had begun to console her on medical/nutrition advice for quite a while now.(She has personally witnessed many cases of hair loss being reversed through excersize, eating right, and reversing psychological stress.)

My grandfather died from a heart attack when I was four, was a chain smoker, and after moving to the states, ate high fat food diet...

My grandmother is a diabetic, who began to suffer from FPB, not too long after having a heart attack, followed by a quadruple by-pass surgery.

I have taken up in my grandfathers footsteps, and am going to school for pre-med, and working towards a bachelors in science and a minor in psychology.
I have been working much longer on nutrition and alternative medicine, (6 years total) and plan on combining the two into an eastern/western outlook, creating a new approach to medicine, where I can treat ailments naturally before having to resort to medication.

I understand western medicine is very effective, and can nullify symptoms and ease the condition after the onset of a disease begins, but, I am putting an emphasis on treating it naturally, holistically, before needing to resort to potentially dangerous drugs, untested for long term side effects.

Also, I am not prescribing medicine, I am referring natural, healthy life style changes, in order to reverse these diseases, which have been linked to male pattern baldness, in fact, by following the advice I give here, you can only arrive at a better state of general health.

use your head said:
These are real facts: exercise and eating a balanced diet of fresh non processed foods is important, however if you are genetically predisposed, you will go bald without medical treatments no matter what.

Oh? If you are genetically pre-disposed, you have a higher risk, this does not mean it will happen. Also, I'm not sure if you have heard the school of thought regarding 'mind over matter' as in your brains positive/negative emotions/thoughts can dictate over-all health in the body. So by saying "There's NO WAY" or "Impossible", you down play the power of the mind. Creating a perpetual cycle towards negativity.

They do give side effects sometimes

Try most times, Canada has banned propecia due to extremely high side-effects regarding the reproductive organs, minoxidil causes heart problems in many users whether it takes 6 months or 5 years.

but where's the proof that it really works against male pattern baldness? Has it actually worked for you or anyone you know?

Funny you say that, I've been drinking POM w/ green tea for only a few weeks now, and im retaining more hair, thicker, my vellus hair has seized shedding by at least half, and I've been getting longer stiffies, just by cleansing my blood.

How do you know it wont work, if no one ever tries it?

use your head said:
See if it did work do you honestly think that doctors would prescribe propecia or minoxidil would sell at all?

Perhaps you're unaware of how corrupt our medical system is, you see, when many of these doctors prescribe a drug like propecia, they are eligible to receive a bonus from the company that sells the drug. Something I vowed never to do, if you want to be a good doctor, you need to care about the human condition, not exploit it!

statistically speaking the side effects affect only a minority of patients.

Funny, when I searched online, rogaine seemed rosy and sweet, but when I asked real people around my college campus, and my friends campus, who were all suffering from male pattern baldness, many stories of permanent heart palpultations, decreased aerobic endurance, rogaine seizing to work after 3 months, following by agressivley losing all their hair. Seems odd that the companies, and their many sub-sites which they create to help promote the product, all same the same thing...

If a medication is dangerous it is pulled off the market in most developed countries

hundreds maybe thousands of FDA approved medication were never tested long enough to see their long term side effects, and many of these researchers forewarned the FDA in regards to obvious signs and symptoms of potentially deadly or permanently life altering medicines, yet they still went forth to release these drugs.

I love medicine, and I will do everything in my power to help liberate these people who have been through nothing but suffering at the expense of major companys taking advantage of good, free, conservative laws.

Oh yeah, if you haven't noticed the title of this form is 'The "Big Three", Their Correlated Diseases, and Natures Cure' I am showing how these three main diseases, (which are very high in the states, yet much lower in many other countries, if not every other country), can begin the onset of male pattern baldness. Since you say it's all genetic, why are there so many less male pattern baldness sufferers in other countires. Those with heart disease, prostate enlargement, and diabetes, all very high here, have increased cases of male pattern baldness.
 

OverMachoGrande

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use your head said:
Mister E


As for the whole men are becoming more feminized posts and video link that you put up, it is true, but we are doing something about it. For example in the European Union common feminizing chemicals such as phalates have been banned.

I believe that feminization comes from people eating aromatase enzymes (animal fat) much more than xenoestrogens. Also I know for a fact that milk and dairy products contain estrogens because milk comes from a pregnant female cow. Also eating large amounts of animal protein causes a sharp increase in IGF-1, which then breaks testosterone away from SHBG; allowing it to convert to estrogen.

Also people are becoming less physically active, boys are playing videogames instead of football or basketball.
 

Bryan

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Lord_Justin13 said:
Bryan said:
Lord_Justin13 wrote:
Bryan wrote:
You're claiming that 5a-reductase binds to SHBG? Really?

Please note:
http://www.androgeneticalopecia.com/hai ... ness.shtml

...Additionally, in humans Ketoconazole has also been shown to inhibit the binding of 5 -reductase to sex hormone globulins.[...]

I'll have to let you off the hook for that, since you were only quoting the link above. However, what they say is ridiculous. SHBG doesn't bind to 5a-reductase! What they probably MEANT to say is that ketoconazole inhibits the binding of SHBG to sex hormones, which is obviously quite another matter. They got their facts all screwed-up!

Is that your opinion?
How is what they say ridiculous?
Please provide evidence to support your claim.

I don't think SHBG even enters cells, so there's no way it can bind with 5a-reductase. If you know otherwise, cite the evidence from a medical journal article or study.

Lord_Justin13 said:
Bryan said:
Lord_Justin13 wrote:
Quote:
After being processed by the liver, Finasteride makes it's way to the 'water' system, where it moves into the prostate and prevents an important natural enzyme from being created, through the unnatural down regulation of the 5-alpha reductase.

AGAIN: give us a medical reference or citation for that.

10th grade, Human Biology, But hey, maybe I'm wrong, I mean it could be eaten by the liver, then moved to the lungs where you exhale the drug.

What the hell is THAT supposed to mean? Do you have a medical reference, or not?

It means what I said, it's in regards to how the human body naturally functions, I can't help how food/water is processed.

"It means what I said"?? Is that the best you can do? :)

Lord_Justin13 said:
Bryan said:
Lord_Justin13 wrote:
Quote:
Lord_Justin13 wrote:
This is what Finasteride mainly assists with, Through halting the 5-alpha enzyme from being created, thus, there is no catalyst for tesosterone to become DHT.

Again, please give us a medical reference or citation that supports that claim.

http://www.ftmguide.org/hairloss.html#finasteride

There is nothing at that link which supports your claim.

let's take another look shall we?

from the website cited above....,

The drug Finasteride was initially prescribed to men in the United States under the drug name "Proscar" to treat enlarged prostate glands. A side effect of the medication was that it caused hair growth in a significant number of the patients. It is now marketed in the U.S. as "Propecia" to treat mild to moderate hair loss in men.

Ok, ready to read the words with me?

Finasteride is a type II 5-alpha reductase inhibitor. Type II 5-alpha reductase (type II 5aR) is an enzyme that is responsible for converting testosterone into DHT (described in detail above). Finasteride blocks the action of type II 5aR, thereby inhibiting DHT production in the hair follicles. A daily dose of 1mg can effectively lower DHT levels by as much as 60%.

Let me repeat that,

Finasteride is a type II 5-alpha reductase inhibitor.

Finasteride blocks the action of type II 5aR.

Finasteride keeps 5a-reductase from producing DHT by BINDING to it (also known as INHIBITING it). In that way it "blocks" the action of type II 5a-reductase. But it doesn't stop the enzyme from being created. I'm shocked that you don't know that! Anybody who spends any time at all on hairloss sites knows that, probably even most complete newbies.

Lord_Justin13 said:
Bryan said:
WRONG. Finasteride doesn't inhibit the expression of the enzyme 5a-reductase. What it does is inhibit the enzyme itself!

When it inhibits the enzyme, it's expression is inhibited. The enzyme still exists, and now with out it's original activity. It is the same meaning, Through the enzyme being 'inhibited', it's actions and expressions are also inhibited.

That's not what "expression" means. That word has to do with the actual SYNTHESIS of the enzyme, not its inhibition. Here is proof that you knew, from an earlier statement you made:

"After being processed by the liver, Finasteride makes it's way to the 'water' system, where it moves into the prostate and prevents an important natural enzyme from being created, through the unnatural down regulation of the 5-alpha reductase."

Lord_Justin13 said:
Bryan, as far as this goes, your only nitpicking at what I already meant.

You're lying and you know it, as the quote above about "preventing from...being created" shows.

Lord_Justin13 said:
Below are a couple of posts (made on two different occasions) by Jonathon Fromme, over on HLH a few years ago. He is a doctor (pathologist), and wrote these things in support of what I'd been saying over there about the popular Urban Myth that finasteride was supposedly an "accidental discovery":

"Bryan is right--finasteride was CLEARLY designed to treat male pattern baldness. I wrote about this 5 years ago on this site, but I'm not sure the record is available.

I'm sorry, without any medical record, this 'doctor' and you, have no valid proof on the discovery of Finasteride. Consequently, the information I have found shows that Finasteride, was originally treated for enlarged prostate, and upon their use, discovered it's hair growth side effects.

LOL!! You're just going to ignore the evidence that Dr. Fromme presented? :)

BTW, when he talked about not being sure if the record is available, Dr. Fromme was merely referring to HIS EARLIER POST ON HLH that he had made 5 years before. But _I_ found it, and presented it as part of my previous post (the first one is the newer one, and the second one is the older one). Based on the other things you've said in this thread, I'm not terribly surprised that you appear to have serious problems with reading comprehension.

Lord_Justin13 said:
Bryan said:
"Sebum secretion and sebaceous lipids." - published in Dermatologic Clinics, Vol. 1, No. 3, July 1983.

This was nearly 30 years ago.
Are you claiming that scientific medical research has reached it's peak, and no new discoveries can be made?!

For a more complete discussion of all the medical evidence against the "feedback theory", read the following threads over on acne.org that I created:

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/myth-s ... 35818.html
"The myth of skin washing and sebum production"

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/eviden ... 71047.html
"Still more evidence against the "feedback theory"

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/FINALL ... 81548.html
"FINALLY: a more direct test of the 'feedback theory' ".

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/stop-w ... 77488.html
"If you stop washing, do you get MORE oily, or do you get LESS oily??"

Lord_Justin13 said:
Listen shills, first, this forum wasn't created for a debate on the discovery of Finasteride, or whether you can't understand what the post means.
Let me help you understand something, after sifting through your companies 5,000 websites, reading on how propecia so wonderful, I continued writing, and made a grammatical error, that's it, a grammatical error. After seeing (INHIBIT), (RENDERS USELESS) etc.. I just worte down what they said, what YOUR companies said.

I've demonstrated to you that YOU made a completely FALSE claim about finasteride, one that you cannot prove. Let this be a lesson to you to be very very careful what you post on sites like this.

Lord_Justin13 said:
Sir, I am compelled to ask exactly what it is you do? nearly 6,000 posts, continuous nay-saying of modern research, this bothers me, I suppose only the research you find is valid then?

Oh, and I believe I saw your same name (spelled exactly the same), at another hair loss website.

I post on several hairloss Web sites. That acne site, too.

Lord_Justin13 said:
Oh yea, and there's an ongoing suspicion that you may be creating several screen names, and flooding this good informative website with more propoganda, and posing to be others, though, I hope that's not true!

LOL!! Is that REALLY what you think, or are you just embarrassed by the errors I brought to your attention, and the new information you got about the development of finasteride, and the properties of sebum? :)

No, I don't have other screen names. "Bryan Shelton" is my real name, and the only one I've ever used while posting on the Internet.
 
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