Testosterone - a DHT antagonist?

[Hoppi]

Confused yet?

This is copied from elsewhere but I thought it was simply too excellent not to bring up

Peace!

"Decline of plasma 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) levels upon testosterone administration to elderly men with subnormal plasma testosterone and high DHT levels.

Gooren LJ, Saad F, Haide A, Yassin A.
Vrije Universiteit Medical Center, Amsterdam, The Netherlands. ljgooren@truemail.co.th


Abstract
The study was performed to measure the impact of testosterone (T) administration on circulating levels of 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Group 1 (32 men; mean age 61 years; mean T 6.9 +/- 1.9 nmol l(-1)) were treated for 15 months with long-acting T undecanoate. Group 2 (23 men, mean age 60 years, mean T 7.6 +/- 2.0 nmol l(-1)) were treated for 9 months with T gel. Plasma T and DHT were measured before and after 9 months T administration. In the men treated with T undecanoate plasma T and DHT were also measured after 12 and 15 months. Before T administration, plasma DHT ranged from 0.39 to 1.76 nmol l(-1) (0.30-1.90 nmol l(-1)). Mean DHT declined upon T administration from 0.95 +/- 0.50 to 0.55 +/- 0.30 nmol l(-1) (P < 0.05). With an arbitrary cut-off at 0.60 nmol l(-1), all 21 values of DHT > 0.60 nmol l(-1) had fallen from 1.29 +/- 0.50 to 0.70 +/- 0.60 nmol l(-1) (P < 0.01). Below this cut-off point 13 values rose and 21 fell upon T administration. Below this cut-off point values on average declined from 0.39 +/- 0.12 to 0.30 +/- 0.14 nmol l(-1) (P < 0.05). The study revealed that in a cohort of elderly men with subnormal plasma T levels plasma DHT levels declined upon T administration when they were in the higher range of normal (>0.6 nmol l(-1)), with a profound shift of DHT/T ratios presumed to be an indicator of a reduced 5alpha-reductase activity. Below plasma DHT levels of 0.6 nmol l(-1),."


Many very, very intelligent individuals (including meeee! ) believe that good, strong T levels (but not excessively high) are good for the male body, reduce DHT, and are therefore good for hair. Of course, as one other poster said it's not so much that anyone is trying to claim that testosterone itself is good for hair, but by lifting your T to healthy levels you are probably going to lower your DHT. Additionally, strong T levels tend to indicate a healthy body.

This may be (read, is) one of the mechanisms inwhich curcumin and resveratrol has been shown to combat hair loss (and apparently even regrow) in some individuals

Hoppiiii! ^_^


oh, EDIT, as I have said before, for this to work optimally in your favour you need to also have good SHBG levels, which means a healthy liver and low insulin resistance!

 

[Hoppi]

To me it seems almost like the male body considers DHT a kind of "super testosterone", that's the way I view it in myself

So when my body doesn't have enough T, it goes "oooo crap!" and makes lots of DHT probably by upregulating 5ar conversion of testosterone, to like... make sure I don't become a woman! rofl xD

That's an insight into how my mind works lol, but it's probably not miles off the actual reality of what may be happening here

In summary you need healthy T production, healthy testes, thyroid, liver, adrenals... and a healthy BODY!

Peace! ^_^

 

[grove12345]

so i should take steroids or something? In most cases doesnt that just accelerate hairloss?

my libido ande nergy is wayyy low since taking only .5mg of propecia. which is weird since i workout and im young.

Thinking of taking some kind of testosterone enhancer, rather ask people on this forum. which would be the best. Over the counter.

 

[wemustchange]

No such thing exists. You can take ZMA but there isn't exactly an OTC T booster than will have a significant impact. And unless you're deficient in T, stay away from TRT.

 

[Hoppi]

No no no don't BOOST your testosterone, let it hit safe, healthy, good levels. Good food, multivits, omega 3, I take ashwagandha and curcumin and resveratrol, that all helps but I gotta make sure I don't overdo it which is why I don't overdo my ashwagandha dose. I actually FEEL healthier like, it's like my body is just better balanced.

Oh, and sex/masturbating less and less beer/alcohol will lift testosterone too. What else.. phh I can't remember lol, but basically if your health is good and you're taking vits and a good adaptogen like schisandra, ashwagandha, that kinda stuff, it all should get them optimal, which should calm down the body's DHT response

Like I say like, I'm not SURE, but it certainly feels right and makes sense, and this study finally backs it up! It's something I have been hearing from people I trust for some time.

 

[Bryan]

So when my body doesn't have enough T, it goes "oooo crap!" and makes lots of DHT probably by upregulating 5ar conversion of testosterone...

Your body maintains a tight control over testosterone, not DHT, sending the chemical signals to the testes which control its synthesis. So when your body thinks it doesn't have enough testosterone, it releases more LH and FSH (luteinizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone), to increase its production. I'm unaware of any sort of feedback mechanism that the body has that would increase the amount of DHT as a response to low testosterone, and I view the results of that study with some suspicion. I hope to get a better idea of what was going on with that, once I get a chance to read the whole thing.

By the way, you might be interested to know that there was a study a while back by some top-notch hairloss researchers (Happle & Hoffmann) that found something exactly OPPOSITE to what's being implied by the study you quoted: giving additional testosterone to human scalp hair follicles in vitro caused those follicles to synthesize a lot more 5a-reductase type II mRNA, which would obviously generate even _more_ DHT, not less!

 

[wemustchange]

Why do people still think having sex lowers your testosterone levels? Feels like something coming from a too-serious high school football coach.

In any case, it is quite frightening how some men seem to fear good T levels. Testosterone makes a man... a man. Throughout the last few years, especially when I was completely unfamiliar with hormones (which for the most part, I still am), I can't count how many times I've gotten suggestions to try lowering total T as it is evil for your hair. Why not just tie our nuts up in a rubber band and slice them off? Completely ridiculous. T above 600, Estradiol in the 20's. Finasteride can be horrible to some.

 

[wesleyBelgium]

best cheap way is to control the 5ar , even if you make your testo higher the dht would not get higer...

there also many people that eat verry bad food en still have the best hair...
its all about the androgen receptors at the hairfollikels , you can switch to verry healty food , even non-meateaters have 16% more testo , but its the 5ar inside the body that convert that testo into dht , even vegetarians get bald , so i dont think its only a foodrelated thing....
just badluck that your hairfollikels have genetic programmed androgen receptors that uptake more and more androgens after puberty...

 

[Hoppi]

I think it depends on the individual

If you ask me there are a million reasons why one can lose hair, and reduced T levels is just one of them.

 

[wesleyBelgium]

just curious
what is your regime for the moment ?

 

[Hoppi]

It's in my new super cool link! hehe!

I thought it would be better than keep having to change it everywhere lol, now I just change it once, and am also not bound by any character limits or anything

 

[Bryan]

If you ask me there are a million reasons why one can lose hair, and reduced T levels is just one of them.

???

Is that just a typo, or have you gone completely Ernie Primeau/misterE on us?

 

[wesleyBelgium]

i read also :

(0.25mg Finasteride EOD if needed)

for me thats just a sign that herbal cant halt male pattern baldness
trust me i have taken lots of herbals before i used meds
if you add finasteride , you can say that its this that will make the most difference....

but goodluck with the regime , curcumin is a good supplement

 

[Hoppi]

If you ask me there are a million reasons why one can lose hair, and reduced T levels is just one of them.

???

Is that just a typo, or have you gone completely Ernie Primeau/misterE on us?

Ah misterE! How I miss him! =D

That guy was proper classic, I think I might change my text in my posts to some wacky unique colour just to like, mark our loss of him!

You know when I first joined the main reason I put this black and white photo (which is actually a pic I took of myself from a few years ago) as my avatar was because I thought it kinda complimented his one quite well xD I really liked his crazy take on things! However now of course I tend to side with people like CS more!

But yeah like erm, when I say loads of things trigger/cause male pattern baldness I mean like basically that loads of things seem to be able to increase inflammation or DHT levels, or make the follicles more vulnerable to them. So, the way I have come to see it is that, even though yes the follicles have a genetic susceptibility to DHT, there are MANY factors which impact whether actually lay down and die or not.

That's why people talk about things like "stress sheds" or say beer seems to make them shed more, and probably why there seems to be this eerie connection between hypothyroidism and male pattern baldness, or metabolic syndrome and male pattern baldness. And all those connection between male pattern baldness and other health conditions like heart problems (I just remember it vaguely as misterE and Lord Justin spoke about it a lot). I don't really believe a lot of this stuff is coincidence.

 

[Bryan]

Ah misterE! How I miss him! =D

I miss him like I miss the clap.

That guy was proper classic, I think I might change my text in my posts to some wacky unique colour just to like, mark our loss of him!

You know when I first joined the main reason I put this black and white photo (which is actually a pic I took of myself from a few years ago) as my avatar was because I thought it kinda complimented his one quite well xD I really liked his crazy take on things! However now of course I tend to side with people like CS more!

But yeah like erm, when I say loads of things trigger/cause male pattern baldness I mean like basically that loads of things seem to be able to increase inflammation or DHT levels, or make the follicles more vulnerable to them. So, the way I have come to see it is that, even though yes the follicles have a genetic susceptibility to DHT, there are MANY factors which impact whether actually lay down and die or not.

That's why people talk about things like "stress sheds" or say beer seems to make them shed more, and probably why there seems to be this eerie connection between hypothyroidism and male pattern baldness, or metabolic syndrome and male pattern baldness. And all those connection between male pattern baldness and other health conditions like heart problems (I just remember it vaguely as misterE and Lord Justin spoke about it a lot). I don't really believe a lot of this stuff is coincidence.

Oh well...you talked about several things, but not the specific thing I asked you about.

 

[wemustchange]

In my opinion, hair loss in men is 99% genetic 1% other factors. I've been healthy all my life, I eat food on such a strict regime others can't grasp it. You know what? My hair still looks sickly and disgusting. Why? Genetics are eliminating my hair. The fat guy at the buffet has a rug on his dome. Are there conditions that coincide with genetic hair loss which also expedite it? Of course. In such small numbers it probably won't apply to the majority. I think it is interesting people look at male pattern baldness as a condition as if it is something that isn't supposed to happen. For whatever reason, genetics say certain males will not have hair on their head. How exactly can you "cure" something that isn't bad other than human vanity?

Anyway, Testosterone is good.

 

[grove12345]

well no kidding its 99% genetic. THats why you got people like Arnold who was a beast in his 20s and 30s did steroids and such and had super healthy hair till his like 50s.

But i agree with OP. There should be a balance in your body. Im pretty sure if finasteride is lowering your T or DHT levels by alot then it could have a negative impact on your mental and physical status as well as maybe hurt your hair.

Its like carbs. Carbs make you fat. But going on a extreme low Carb diet can make you fatter. Weird right.

So maybe the same with finasteride. To high of a dose can cause your hair to get worse.

 

[wemustchange]

What "super low carb diet" makes you GAIN weight. Not true. Paleo diet.

 

[Bryan]

So maybe the same with finasteride. To high of a dose can cause your hair to get worse.

Nah. The pseudohermaphrodites have excellent scalp hair, as do people with CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome).

 

[Hoppi]

In some people it does seem more pure genetics.

However. HOWEVER.

How do you know which bit is actually genetic? There are many things that can lead to hair loss, many deficiencies and different issues in the body, maybe the genetic problem is not "sensitive follicles" as such, but a more specific body imbalance that is then "activated" by DHT?