spironolactone + minoxidil possible? i.e. nano

[Yardbird]

I was just looking over Dr. Lee's website (http://www.minoxidil.com), and he states there that he didn't include spironolactone in xandrox because minoxidil and spironolactone can't be mixed in the same solution. According to him, if they are mixed, they will react with each other, rendering both ineffective.
Then I started thinking about Nano (Proxiphen-N). That's a mixture of minoxidil and spironolactone, among other things, right? So then, who's right here, Dr. Lee or Dr. Proctor?

 

[The Gardener]

My vote is for Dr Lee.

 

[Cassin]

My vote is for Dr Lee.

Yup.

 

[Yardbird]

Yeah ok, that's a simple answer, and I understand your point of view. But let's consider Bryan's pictures for a moment. http://www.hairlosstalk.com/photogallery/pgbryan.htm
In the pics, he had been using Nano for two years, and the results look pretty good. That doesn't look like the work of a solution with compromised effectiveness due to chemical reactions, does it?

 

[Cassin]

HAH!

Yeah sorry, Gardener and I didn't go into much detail did we? To be honest I really don't know the answer, but considering Dr Lee, I pretty much believe him over Proctor just based on what people have said here, and their own comments concering their products.

wow I can sure string together a run-on sometimes.......

 

[Yardbird]

Not to discredit Dr. Lee, but we are talking about "Mr. Azelaic Acid," aren't we?

<Dr. Evil voice>
"Actually, that's *Dr. Azelaic Acid* to you. I didn't spend 6 years in evil hair medical school to be called 'Mr.,' thank you very much!"

<Back to Yardbird voice>
I'm obviously playing devil's advocate here, but I honestly don't know who to believe this time. I'm sure Dr. Lee knows a great deal about mixing minoxidil solutions (maybe more than anyone), but sometimes I wonder about his advice on other topics. His stance on azelaic acid is a prime example.

Then there's Dr. Proctor, who I have no reason not to believe, but I haven't read enough of his suggestions to really say anything about him one way or another. Cassin, you've been a big proponent of his creation, Folligen, for several months now. He must know something about something, right?

And then again, to state the obvious, this isn't really about belief in a person, but it's about the answer to a question related to the chemistry of the treatments involved, minoxidil and spironolactone.

I think I've posed a tough one here.
If anyone knows the answer, feel free to chime in.

 

[Cassin]

Not to discredit Dr. Lee, but we are talking about "Mr. Azelaic Acid," aren't we?

Ah very good point, plus you have the 15% minoxidil which seems very unstable.

Then there's Dr. Proctor, who I have no reason not to believe, but I haven't read enough of his suggestions to really say anything about him one way or another. Cassin, you've been a big proponent of his creation, Folligen, for several months now. He must know something about something, right?

Actually thats Dr Pickart. There is a few funny articals out there of Dr Lee and Dr Pickart slamming each other. Dr Lee has a few things against Folligen, and Dr Pickart doesn't seem to be a fan of the Beta steroid Lee puts in some of his minoxidil solutions.

and then again, to state the obvious, this isn't really about belief in a person, but it's about the answer to a question related to the chemistry of the treatments involved, minoxidil and spironolactone.

The character of some of these guys is actually fair to point out.

 

[Yardbird]

Whoops. I'm the victim of confusing "P" names. I am as bad with names on the net as I am in person. Thanks for setting me straight there.

The character of these guys is OK to point out, sure, but that's not really going to answer my question. I mean, as we've established, even the authority you're going with, Dr. Lee, isn't necessarily the be all, end all source of knowledge on hair loss, right?

In other words, you and Gardner are telling me who you would believe, and I do appreciate that answer. But, obviously, that's not going to stick for me in terms of a concrete answer to my question.
That's more like hedging bets on a prize fight, if you like that sort of analogy.

 

[Cassin]

Ok not to completely derail your question but this topic brings to the point a very good issue I think in character with those that sell products.

In character we have faith of legitimacy of a product do we not? If we have no studies to back a product up I mean, and we have dialogue with the seller as we do with Dr Lee and Dr Proctor.

And no, Dr Lee isn't the end all be all, his "facts" are of course biased towards what he sells. He has a "solution" for every problem of hairloss for sell.

The end all be all is some doctor we have never heard of and doesn't sell a thing.

Anyway, Dr Lee and Dr Proctor are both very responsive so ask them and hopefully you can match it to some responses here.

 

[johnnycash]

Does not Gardener not apply both spironolactone and minoxidil at around the same time? I wonder why this wouldn't render them ineffective as well?

 

[Yardbird]

johnnycash: No, Dr. Lee's website says that the degradation of the agents, spironolactone and minoxidil, happens slowly over the course of many hours. By applying spironolactone and then minoxidil, or visa-vera, there's not enough time for the active ingredients to interact and go bad.

Cassin: Asking Dr. Lee would be repetitive since his answer is clearly stated on his website. I guess I'm saying I don't have complete faith in that answer. Asking Proctor sounds like a good idea, and I will try that.

You brought up a great point about the faith we have in these hairloss doctors. I guess we end up believing someone like Dr. Lee when we read the studies on minoxidil, realize that's the drug of choice for us, and then realize that he's selling it. There we have some sort of outside confirmation of what he's telling us.

In this case, I guess I'm just skeptical of what Lee is saying about this topic (and to be fair, I'd be skeptical of whatever Proctor says as well), first of all because their answers conflict, and someone has to be wrong. Secondly, I have no outside source to verify what they are saying, one way or another. I don't know of any independent research that shows whether spironolactone and minoxidil render each other ineffective in the same solution. I did see Bryan's pictures, and that counts for something, though I guess people could argue that perhaps those pictures could be the result of a *less* effective solution. There's no way to tell.

Bryan, what do you think about this issue? Surely, you must have an opinion.

 

[Bryan]

Bryan, what do you think about this issue? Surely, you must have an opinion.

Oh God, you just HAD to draw me into this, didn't you? :lol:

1) Those before-and-after pics of me were when I was using only Proxiphen-N and NANO Shampoo. Prox-N is an OTC product, and doesn't contain either minoxidil or spironolactone. You're confusing that with the prescription version called Proxiphen, which contains minoxidil, spironolactone, Retin-A, phenytoin, and numerous other agents.

2) If I remember correctly (don't hold me to this, this is from years ago), Dr. Proctor has stated that when spironolactone starts to smell, it doesn't really adversely effect its antiandrogenic properties. The same _may_ also be true for the extra odor that you get when you mix it with minoxidil (again, don't hold me to that).

3) Dr. Proctor has said many times on alt.baldspot that he had found a special way of stabilizing the spironolactone in Proxiphen, to minimize the smell. In fact, I remember that he once said something about possibly taking out a PATENT on this technique, so it must be something pretty special.

4) Personally, I think Dr. Proctor has FORGOTTEN more about hairloss than Dr. Lee knows. Everyone knows my feelings about Dr. Lee's azelaic acid. All Dr. Lee seems to do is mess around with different versions of topical minoxidil (his latest 15% version is appearing more and more to be something LESS than a phenomenal breakthrough! ). On the other hand, Dr. Proctor uses stuff that no other doctor uses, like phenytoin, and those turbocharged SODs like TEMPO/TEMPOL, PBN, etc. I think his stuff is light-years ahead of Dr. Lee's same-ol' same-ol' stuff.

(I am now putting on my flame-retardant underwear, in preparation for the inevitable responses I'm going to get to what I've just said! )

Bryan

 

[Healthy Nick]

Bryan, what ever happened with the Proxiphen-N? Do you still use it, or did you stop? Why did you stop if you did?


What exactly is that stuff made of anyway? I looked but couldn't find anything.

You had great results from using it, so I am very curious.

 

[Yardbird]

Bryan, prepared the be seriously flamed... :evil:

....by someone else.

Actually I agree with what you said about Dr. Lee, and my previous posts say as much. I thought the azelaic acid comment would have gotten you here sooner.

The eventual point of my original post was that IF the spironolactone and minoxidil combo in Proxiphen don't adversely affect each other, then proxiphen might be a great treatment for many people who need to get on spironolactone and minoxidil, but really hate having to apply a topical four times a day (i.e. 2 x minoxidil and 2 x spironolactone.) Maybe I'll give this one a look later, if my regimen doesn't work well.

By the way, you mentioned that Proctor said he feels that when spironolactone starts to smell it doesn't lose its effectiveness right? That's the same thing Dr. Lee said on his site. Perhaps smell is the whole reason Lee doesn't include spironolactone into xandrox directly.

 

[Dave001]

I was just looking over Dr. Lee's website (http://www.minoxidil.com), and he states there that he didn't include spironolactone in xandrox because minoxidil and spironolactone can't be mixed in the same solution. According to him, if they are mixed, they will react with each other, rendering both ineffective.
Then I started thinking about Nano (Proxiphen-N). That's a mixture of minoxidil and spironolactone, among other things, right? So then, who's right here, Dr. Lee or Dr. Proctor?

I don't see any claim presented for Proctor, so it's difficulty to view the options as mutually exclusive.

There are multiple ways that minoxidil and spironolactone can coexist in a formulation while remaining stable. In a true solution wherein *both* are dissolved? That might be difficult. But otherwise, you have a lot of options.

I'd imagine that a formulation chemist (a sort of physical chemist who enjoys mixing stuff together and studying the resulting behavior; i.e., physical changes, instead of reactions such as that involved in making drugs and explosions) would first take note of the strikingly different solubility characteristics. Taking those differences into account, one could formulate so that the compounds favorably partition into separate phases. Micellar and lamellar dispersions comprising hydrophilic and hydrophobic cores entrapped by lipid layers in nonpolar and polar solvent systems, respectively, as well as polymer stabilized colloidal dispersions are all very common. The former usually involve high surfactant concentrations. There are an endless number of variations, the number of which is only surpassed by the popular marketing terms to describe them.

 

[n1kki6]

ok so then when should spironolactone be applied if using with minoxidil, should the minoxidil be dry cause i could have sweore reasing to use spironolactone 10 minutes after minoxidil. But the wouldnt it react with minoxidil still wet. My spironolactone from genhair.com dries quick, should i then use it before minoxidil. Im confused now.

 

[n1kki6]

nevermind, im using 2% should be put on before.