Scalp DHT or Bloodstream DHT ?

[DarkVctry]

I guess this is something nobody knows for sure, but ill put out my 2 cents. First and foremost ive been taking topical spironolactone, and using nizoral shampoo. I am a amature "natural" bodybuilder so i dont really want to take any internal drugs that play around with my hormones. (and yes you can make great gains while on internals i know)

So far it appears the spironolactone cream has halted my loss but most could consider me a "diffuse thinner", i know how spironolactone works but i am considering using a topical DHT blocker.

Okay is it best to block the DHT in the scalp (is that all you gotta do) or is it necessary to combat the DHT into the bloodstream as well ?

ALSO i saw a new product called Regenetresses, its a combo shampoo/conditioner/DHT blocker serum........just wondering if anybody else has heard of this stuff or think it even works ? http://www.regenetresse.com/rg/howitworks
They make this for men and women.
Another product i see is hair genesis but i heard thats a bust.

 

[G k]

I guess this is something nobody knows for sure, but ill put out my 2 cents. First and foremost ive been taking topical spironolactone, and using nizoral shampoo. I am a amature "natural" bodybuilder so i dont really want to take any internal drugs that play around with my hormones. (and yes you can make great gains while on internals i know)

So far it appears the spironolactone cream has halted my loss but most could consider me a "diffuse thinner", i know how spironolactone works but i am considering using a topical DHT blocker.

Okay is it best to block the DHT in the scalp (is that all you gotta do) or is it necessary to combat the DHT into the bloodstream as well ?

ALSO i saw a new product called Regenetresses, its a combo shampoo/conditioner/DHT blocker serum........just wondering if anybody else has heard of this stuff or think it even works ? http://www.regenetresse.com/rg/howitworks
They make this for men and women.
Another product i see is hair genesis but i heard thats a bust.

The only real way to stop and reverse hairloss is by lowering SERUM dht, which is the dht level in your blood.

There is no proof that topical dht inhibitors work at all, although some might claim a mild success.

 

[Bryan]

Okay is it best to block the DHT in the scalp (is that all you gotta do) or is it necessary to combat the DHT into the bloodstream as well ?

Please explain exactly what you mean by "block the DHT in the scalp" and "combat the DHT into the bloodstream".

 

[Bryan]

The only real way to stop and reverse hairloss is by lowering SERUM dht, which is the dht level in your blood.

There is no proof that topical dht inhibitors work at all, although some might claim a mild success.

Really? How do you explain the fact that topical 5a-reductase inhibitors (GLA would be a good example) can have a "local" effect in suppressing sebaceous glands where they're physically applied, in both animals and humans?

 

[DarkVctry]

Opps sorry Bryan, i meant "combat DHT in the bloodstream, not "into" as im writing these posts i am very very tired haha.
What i meant was Scalp DHT vs Serum bloodstream........see the way that makes sense to me is.........if you can block the DHT at the follicular level around the root of the hair follicule.......then isnt that enough ?

I understand and have read the great success of internals like finasteride.......very great results. I just think alot of people have it all wrong, DHT is a great hormone for men to have, it makes us who we are. If their is a way to make the brain not reconize the DHT bound to hair follicules as a foreign body.......then our DHT, Hair and brain could get along just fine.

This is why i like the idea behind spironolactone......it competes with the DHT if im correct. It doesnt suppress it.

So basically im asking, in theory for scientific reasons.......if a DHT blocker/inhibitor topical "could" work. Does science back up the claim that Scalp DHT is all that needs to be blocked. Or does it stand that, serum levels are where the battle is at ?

 

[Bryan]

Opps sorry Bryan, i meant "combat DHT in the bloodstream, not "into" as im writing these posts i am very very tired haha.
What i meant was Scalp DHT vs Serum bloodstream........see the way that makes sense to me is.........if you can block the DHT at the follicular level around the root of the hair follicule.......then isnt that enough ?

Didn't you notice that I also asked what you meant by "block DHT in the scalp"? The words "block DHT" are ambiguous, because they could mean one of two or three different things. They could refer to any of the things below:

1) A 5a-reductase inhibitor like finasteride or dutasteride, which stops or reduces the production of DHT.

2) An androgen receptor blocker (also called simply an "antiandrogen"), like flutamide or RU58841. They "block" the effects of DHT, by binding to androgen receptors.

3) The substance called "equol", which binds directly to DHT, preventing it from binding to androgen receptors.

Do you see how confusing it can be when you say "block DHT"? FYI: Doctors writing about these issues in medical journal studies and articles NEVER EVER use the words "block DHT", for that very reason: it's completely ambiguous, and the medical journal would never allow the use of such a colloquial, unprofessional expression. I wish everybody who posts on hairloss forums would be just as precise as doctors and scientists, and use the same terminology as they do: either "5a-reductase inhibitor", or "androgen receptor blocker" (or simply "antiandrogen").

I understand and have read the great success of internals like finasteride.......very great results. I just think alot of people have it all wrong, DHT is a great hormone for men to have, it makes us who we are. If their is a way to make the brain not reconize the DHT bound to hair follicules as a foreign body.......then our DHT, Hair and brain could get along just fine.

You're obviously referring to the idea (popular on sites like these) that that when androgens bind to scalp hair follicles, the immune system supposedly "sees" the hair follicles as "foreign", then attacks them. But I've read hundreds and hundreds of medical journal articles that deal (directly or indirectly) with hair loss, and I've never seen that theory stated in any of them! NOT ONE SINGLE TIME!

This is why i like the idea behind spironolactone......it competes with the DHT if im correct. It doesnt suppress it.

Among other functions, spironolactone is indeed an androgen receptor blocker.

So basically im asking, in theory for scientific reasons.......if a DHT blocker/inhibitor topical "could" work. Does science back up the claim that Scalp DHT is all that needs to be blocked. Or does it stand that, serum levels are where the battle is at ?

As I pointed out to the poster "G k" above, I think there is compelling scientific evidence to suggest that serum DHT doesn't play a very important role in androgenetic alopecia. I think that suppressing the production of DHT within the hair follicles themselves is 90% of the game.

 

[G k]

The only real way to stop and reverse hairloss is by lowering SERUM dht, which is the dht level in your blood.

There is no proof that topical dht inhibitors work at all, although some might claim a mild success.

Really? How do you explain the fact that topical 5a-reductase inhibitors (GLA would be a good example) can have a "local" effect in suppressing sebaceous glands where they're physically applied, in both animals and humans?

I can't!

What is GLA?

Im talking in lamens terms about the effectiveness of finasteride vs any other topical treatment.

Your posts have been most informative tho thank-you.

 

[Bryan]

I can't!

What is GLA?

GLA is the usually accepted acronym for "gamma-linolenic acid", a fatty acid which has been shown to be a potent 5a-reductase inhibitor. It was shown to do that in a rather famous study by Liang & Liao et al (and other studies, too), who tested it (along with several other fatty acids) using the standard hamster flank-organ test. GLA was also tested on a human subject by the same scientists, and it was found to work the same way.

That suggests an obvious question: If serum DHT is more important than "locally" produced DHT in hair follicles and sebaceous glands, why did the topical application of GLA have such a strong effect in those hamsters and the human?

Your posts have been most informative tho thank-you.

Thank you! You're welcome!

 

[DarkVctry]

Thanks Bryan you are definatly the man. Ive read your posts on other forums for atleast the past 2 years and very informative, forgive my terminology.

So if GLA has such a great success then why isnt their a market out for it now and no success stories about topicals on this forum ? I also agree that scalp DHT is the name of the game because i read a Merck study that finasteride only reduces scalp DHT by 30% or so im too lazy to find the exact quote. It was a side by side comparasion to dutasteride.

The only reason i know about spironolactone is that im a bodybuilder and alot of the BB's in the community do Steroids, and a majority of them swear by spironolactone during their cycles and taper off for post cycle therapy. Hehe alot of bodybuilders define themselves as "human guinea pigs" they will put anything into their systems haha, im all natural for the most part.

In your opinion Bryan, is their a promising Topical out now ? What combination of topicals is the best in your opinion, I wish i just had a log of all your posts so i can read you're inputs.

 

[Bryan]

So if GLA has such a great success then why isnt their a market out for it now and no success stories about topicals on this forum ?

GLA is prohibitively expensive, and has serious storage issues (kinda reminds you of RU58841, doesn't it? ). If there were a way to make the stuff inexpensively and store it safely for reasonable periods of time, it might very well be an important new topical treatment! :shock:

Revivogen, of course, has lots of various fatty acids in it, but there's no doubt in my mind that GLA is a very very low percentage of that total. The 5a-reductase inhibiting ability of those other ones (like ALA, LA, OA, etc.) is a lot less significant than pure GLA.

I also agree that scalp DHT is the name of the game because i read a Merck study that finasteride only reduces scalp DHT by 30% or so im too lazy to find the exact quote. It was a side by side comparasion to dutasteride.

I've never paid much attention to those studies that quote various percentages of "scalp DHT" reduction, for the simple reason that there's a great deal of inconsistency from one study to the next. Why even talk about such numbers at all, if they don't really mean anything? :shock:

In your opinion Bryan, is their a promising Topical out now ? What combination of topicals is the best in your opinion, I wish i just had a log of all your posts so i can read you're inputs.

Sure, I've made no secret of the fact that I consider Dr. Proctor's topical products (Proxiphen, Prox-N, and NANO Shampoo) probably to be the best. In fact, he considers prescription-strength Proxiphen to be more effective than Propecia alone, and I have no particular reason to doubt his honesty or his judgement.