Saw Palmetto Proven To Work? No!

[mvpsoft]

Revivogen contains both fatty acids and saw palmetto, so I don't understand your point, RR.

 

[Whoome?]

In all common sense.. I would much rather believe a study which actually tested on *human* scalp with results even if its for 3 months (which I think is sufficient time to gauge results although not the best of results). Rather than some study done on lab mouse flank.

 

[Whoome?]

*cough* correction... "hamster"

 

[pilogenic101]

I think that what confuses the issue about saw palmetto for hairloss is that the term "saw palmetto" can mean many things. Are we talking about unadulterated saw palmetto berry powder, standardized saw palmetto extract (SPE), saw palmetto formula (SPE with additives like pygeum, pumpkin seed oil, nettles, etc.), powder vs oil-filled capsules, or what? This confusion may help to account for the variation of results reported by users. *** The German Commission E reports on saw palmetto effectiveness for BPH may be a good starting point for your literature research, because I understand that they started the whole flap about saw palmetto and the natural SP medication called Permixon.

 

[Shinyscalp23]

saw palmetto formulations that also include pygeum, nettles etc may work for male pattern baldness--because there are other herbs and supplements in them that are also hypothesized to be anti-androgens--so even if Sp in and of itself does not work for hair loss-that does not mean these other herbs dont(although, admittedly, I havent seen any studies on them)--thats why im continuing to use those SP preparations that contain other herbs---on the other hand, my gut tells me that if saw palmetto is to have any affect on hair loss prevention/regrowth--it is in topical form--simply because we know that it is a dht inhibitor in the prostate--it would make sense that when applied locally to the scalp it would have some affect on the dht up there, even if it is just minimal, but when you add that as a supplement to minoxidil and nizoral---it may help things a bit--after months of taking just the sp capsules (with other herbs in them) ive decided to add it topically to my regimen once a day for only a couple hours-the information on here, I hate to admit, has convinced me that it doesnt do much for the hair when taken orally, if anything-nevertheless, i still advocate using it as a just in case scenario, simply because there isnt enough info for or against it.. for those of you on propecia I wouldnt even bother with it tho-just another product to put on your scalp and something else for your liver to deal with---now id fill you guys in on my progress or lack thereof with liquid, drinkable sp applied topically, but it wouldnt be scientific, because id have no variable to measure it against, simply because ive made proven treatments(minoxidil 5%/retin-a precombined 2x a day and nizoral 1 or 2% 3 * a week) the core of my regimen-and im having decent results-- i do want to add this tho--we could also easily say that there were problems with the way minoxidil was tested--i mean--everyone has a different hair life/shedding cycle, right? and 4 months is a very small period of time to see any results for generic minoxidil, really--its not much longer than 3 months, and the potential for mimimal, moderate, let alone dense regrowth after just 8 weeks with the 5%, or 4 months with the 2% or 5% is a bit far fetched as well...the first time i religiously used minoxidil 5% generic brand it took me 8 months to get around where i currently am now 4 months on minoxidil 5%/retin-a--i got alil too cocky and confident in my new hair--which practically fell out in chuncks 8 months later..while this may be a bit off topic, those minoxidil tests may discourage many potential success stories and encourage people to stop using generic minoxidil because after 4 months they saw little, if no change..i mean it could take 4 months just to slow down, forget stopping the shedding..let alone even grow vellus hair--so i think theres something wrong with implying that even 4 months is an accurate time frame to see any difference for most people-those results imply a very poor generalization given the slow, gradual progress with minoxidil. now at the beginning of this year, after stopping all treatments...my hair loss had become so severe i was well on my way to going from a mild norwood 3 to a severe norwood 4--in just 4 months..ive had awesome success with minoxidil and retin-a--my hair almost looks just as good as it did when i used generic minoxidil 5 % for 8 months, despite the severe shedding(the worst and most dramatic ive ever had) i went through when i initially stopped treatments....and many people arent convinced about the helpful affects of retin -a combined with minoxidil--and the lab work on it, in the opinions of many (including myself) is limited...what that salesman dr lee says doesnt count, but that does not mean it doesnt work in a superior fashion-look--the role of topical ketoconazole as an anti-androgen or aid in hair loss prevention is quite limited as well-nevertheless most of us believe that it is completely proven to be beneficial-- i havent read any studies over a wide and diverse group of people to support it as an affective anti-androgen---30, 40, 50 people aren't many--and its not even listed by the fda as a treatment for hair loss--but we still consider it a proven treatment, no matter how limited those studies may be--so as far as saw palmetto is concerned, i dont believe it could do much-especially when solely taken orally, but when also combined with topical usage, it may be, even if minimally, effective--limited data on other treatments like nizoral and retin-a hasnt stopped us from using those-and i can attest, that the latter has helped me significantly-irregardless of the lack of many studies out there-many of which are against retin-a..and id bet you that topical saw palmetto would probably act very similar to nizoral---if not better--just because data is limited on something does not mean the jury is out on it--and while the studies on nizoral havent completely convinced me it does much, i religiously use it 3 times a week, id like to see more studies on that too...and for those of us who cant or wont take propecia-the only thing we can do is simply supplement our hardcore treatment with supplements that only limited data can support

 

[Dice_Has_Hair]

Well.............maybe we should try this > Topical Beta Sitosterol + Emu oil

You could apply the Beta Sitosterol (topical form here) to the scalp and to "insure" or atleast "hope" to get the Beta Sitosterol to the dermal papillae of the hair follicle( where it needs to go) use Emu oil as the vehicle. Just apply the Emu oil as you did the Beta Sitosterol. Emu oil is supposed to be a great vehicle for topical applications, even for drug topical medications.


I mean............isn't beta sitosterol supposed to be the "main" constituent or should I say ingredient in SP.

I remember reading somewhere that a guy was using a good dose of Beta Sitosterol "orally" and he was getting good results with his hair, but also some health issues. Probably due to the fact that he was ingesting way too much. So........I would think that "topical" is the way to go. :wink:

 

[Dice_Has_Hair]

Also, important here, Androgens shouldn't be the "only" focus here. We also need to focus on TNF-a, TGF-b, PKC. Those are immune factors involved in the process of actually killing the follicle. I have read that the immune system looks at the follicles as foreign bodies or invaders and tries to kill it with weapons like TNF-a..............and all that sh*t, EVEN if the androgens aren't presently there. As long as the androgens have been clung to the follicle long enough..........the immune system "remembers" what follicles to attack. So yes DHT inhibition at the follicle is a GREAT idea, but.........so isn't understanding how the immune system acts upon this. Especially since the immune system is the f****r that is really killing it. Thats also where the study of SOD's (superoxide dimustases) will come into play. DHT inhibition is nothing more than a "part" of the circle of hairloss treatment and that is "exactl" how we should treat it. Just do not use cyclosporin to suppress the immune system............it can kill ya flat........very dangerous sh*t in the long run. It'll make ya grow hair....................but ya may not be alive long enough to enjoy it.

 

[HairlossTalk]

Well put, Dice!

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Dice_Has_Hair]

Well put, Dice!

HairLossTalk.com

Thanks

 

[sublime]

:bravo:

 

[Dice_Has_Hair]

Dice,

You mention that taking cyclosporin can grow your hair back due to it suppressing the immune system. I understand it is a generalized statement but if suppressing the immune system helps with hair regrowth why do I see articles that state green tea can help with hair when green tea boosts your immune system. Even if green tea does not really help with hair would it not hinder the growth of hair since it does boost your immune system?

Thanks.

Actually, if green tea does boost the immune system it would probably help to "modulate" the immune system. Meaning that if the immune system is low, it would help to give it a lift and if it too high, it might help lower it. Keeping the immune system in a happy "medium" is what you want. I do know that green tea is supposed to have TNF-a inhibiting properties, which TNF-a is involved in the immune system response to reject the follicles. TNF-a is greatly involved in all types of "autoimmune" disorders. TNF-a I believe is an inflammatory which is not good. So, taking anything that inhibits TNF-a will be of great benefit to all the autoimmune disorders.
I do know that echinacea is a TNF-a promoter, which is what you do not want to have if you have an autoimmune disorder..............perhaps male pattern baldness as well. Echinacea is an immune system BOOSTER.......meaning it might very well make the immune system too high.
Green tea should be very good for hair and probably has hair growth properties due to the TNF-a inhibition. Who knows, could have other things in it that help the hair grow too.

 

[oni]

I wonder caffeine lowers the immune system in large amounts so maybe my topical is working lol!

 

[Dice_Has_Hair]

I wonder caffeine lowers the immune system in large amounts so maybe my topical is working lol!

Caffeine lowers the immune system?! I didn't know that or are you just saying that? :shock: :?

 

[oni]

http://www.isma.org.uk/stressnw/caffeine1.htm :lol:

 

[Dice_Has_Hair]

http://www.isma.org.uk/stressnw/caffeine1.htm :lol:

Thanks for the info!!

 

[haymes]

I was able to go directly to the PDF and read the part that you stated. It clearly states that in this test which was controlled and had a placebo group, that SP is effective in baldness resulting from the enzymes that cause production of DHT. My only concern is that it seems to have been an experiment using topical SP?? Also, how much of it is needed concentration wise? I understand the the scepticism here, but we need to at least read the information before tossing the idea out the window.

 

[michael barry]

This is whats in saw palmetto here http://www.sawpalmetto.com/libsaw.html

The linolenic, lauric, oleic, linoleic acids in thier FREE form supposedly inhibit conversion of T to DHT in test tubes. What sets saw palmetto a little apart is the fact that they seem to occur in their free form quite a bit in saw palmetto oil extract.

For instance, alpha linolenic and gamma linolenic are the best fatty acids for inhibiting DHT. BUT, they dont often occur in their free form in nature. They are in a triglyceride forms, etc. If they werent, you could rub flaxseed oil or black currant oil on your head and inhibit DHT pretty well, but ya' cant (Be nice if we could though).

Beta sitosterol is in Saw Palmetto also. The makers of Revivogen and Crinagen (especially Raztec) seem to believe that its helpful. Loren Pickart advises 80mg of Saw Palmetto oil a day along with 1G of MSM and 4G of flaxseed oil on his website.

Proven? Well, no......Pickart says it proboably never will be because its not a patentable substance. Baldness and Benign Prostate Hyperplasia seem to go together in some fella's, so maybe its not a bad idea to take it for that reason, and if it did help for baldness.....so much the better.

Pickart mentioned some bodybuilders on his website that took 160-320 mg a day complaining of gynochomostia though. Thats a similar side effect of dutasteride in men who should be producing ALOT of Testosterone. Palmetto is theorized to work by sort of "handcuffing" DHT by adhering to it somehow, making it a poorer fit for androgen receptors. Soy isoflavone geinitien seems to inhibit the number of androgen receptors being made, the daidzien isoflavone, and equol also seem to inhibit DHT's action, if not production. Vitamin b6 supposedly helps you make less androgen receptors.

I take propecia, saw palmetto oil, pygeum, nettle, soy isoflavones all in hopes of inhibiting a little more DHT production without plummeting my serum levels to the extent that dutasteride would (Im a little fraidy cat of cutting serum DHT by over 90%). Ive noticed since Ive been doing it, I have thinner body hair (Ive been on propecia since a year after it came out in the 90's) and the body hair decrease is in the past year (when I tried the fatty acids). If someone wants to try palmetto......its imperative to try the extracts that have 85-90% sterols.


Dice mentioned that cyclosporin is effective for hair loss. Ive wondered if thats what the alpecin product is up to. Caffeine is a weak anti-androgen. The studies on it were 4 months long, so that is a joke in itself. But IT WAS done by a major German University, and Alpecin is a big company. Who knows? I hope some guys try the stuff, take pics, and report back to us.........

 

[haymes]

Thanks for all the information as it did shed more light on this. The funny part of this is that I have been taking the standardized saw palmetto and couldn't resist the Wallgreens sale on Sundown products, buy one get one free of the regular Saw palmetto 450 pills which give you 300 per bottle. So I guess I may have made a mistake in buying the whole herb version. I hope that can't be detrimental healthwise can it? I am taking minoxidil 5 percent, twice a day, Revivogen before bed, Saw Palmetto (2 pills twice a day), Biotin 2000 per day, Multi Vitamin with zinc, and 1000 of Ester C, and just started taking 2 pills twice a day of grape seed extract. I also placed an order for the American Crew Revitalizing spray which i got what I considered a tremendous deal online at http://www.rafsinc.com/store/item1430.htm

 

[michael barry]

In my unproofread post above I stated that caffeine is a weak anti-androgen.....whoops. What I meant to type is that caffeine is a weak immunosuppressant. Sorry bout that. Having reread that post, I made a few typos as Im prone to do (fat fingertips).


Haymes, if youre a young fella just starting to see recession, youre so much more luck than us older guys who have experienced some recession for some time. Chances are good you can hold onto your hair for many years when there are better chances of a gene based cure coming out. PuritansPride and Vitaminworld tend to have good stuff as far as herbals go. Just taking a good Vitaimin B supplement would proboably get you all the biotin, bsix, btwelve, folate, etc. that you would need....

You know Haymes, If I listed every substance that Ive seen advised for hairloss it be quite a list. Let me see....arginine (Dr. Proctor), glutamine, the Vitamin B complex (everyone, webmd, dermatologists etc.), Soy Isoflavones (bbc article, japanese researchers), grape seed extract (for the proanthocyanidrins therein I imagine plus fatty acids), MSM (Tom Hagerty and Loren Pickart), Saw Palmetto oil extract (hairsite, Pickart, Razack, numerous docs), Flaxseed oil (flax lignan study, Pickart, many web sources), Pygeum and stinging nettle (hairsite, web), beta-sitosterol (Dr. Sears, Hairsite, the fact its contained in Natricia(Razack)
Black Currant and Borage and Evening Primrose oil all contain Omega three fatty acids, Zinc, Copper, Vitamin A, Vitamin D, Melatonin, Lecithin, reservatrol (extract found in red wine), Fish oil.......buncha stuff huh?

The ones associated with thinning blood/ or releasing nitric oxide to dialate peripheral blood vessels/repair them are fish oil, arginine, glutamine, reservatrol (red wine)

The ones associated with anti-inflammatory activities are flaxseed oil, borage oil, black currant oil, primrose oil, saw palmetto (to an extent).

Decreasing DHT actions are palmetto, pygeum, isoflavones, stinging nettle, beta sitosterol

Decreasing amount of androgen receptors vitamin bsix, isoflavone genistein,


Hair follicles need it nutritionally? Vitamin b complex, vitamin a, vitamin d,

Apparently have good effects on hair for poorly understood/unknown reason? Melatonin, lecithin, zinc (maybe inhibits DHT production), copper (rejuvinates skin, maybe inhibits some DHT production)


What not to eat? Saturated animal fats ESPECIALLY from dairy products and red meat. Go for leaner cuts of red meat than sloppy hamburgers, and only drink skim milk if you must (note, Americans and Europeans drink MUCH more milk than other countries around the world. The Thai are 98 percent lactose intolerant, and their hair is better than ours.......Dr. Nasser Razteck advises agains fat from milk, so Id drink skim if I just had to have it. Razteck also noted that men who ate 5 servings of red meat every week had much higher incidences of prostate cancer. Chinese men have 120 times less prostate cancer than black american men. Chinese men eat lots of soy based food and black american men eat the same red-meat that we all do over here state side. Things to consider. Japanese now bald much more often than they did before WWII when they had a traditional soy/plant/fish based diet. They now have milk, McDonalds......and they go bald much more often. MOre food for thought.

 

[haymes]

Well, that was an extremely informative post, and very consistent with what I have read on natural health sites. I am 38, so I don't qualify as the youngster you refer to, LOL. However, with my current regimen, I have had much success in the frontal area. Also, I believe the revivogen has a lot of what you are speaking of but its effectiveness as a topical hasn't been proven. I look forward to more correspondence withyou since you don't seem to condemn or tought these remedies, you just state them. Thanks again and happy new year.