Question to Swoop

deniak

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Hi Swoop, I dont want to take too muchof your time, but I need some advice for knowledgeable guy who keepboth feet on the ground. Im posting this questions as a thread,because who knows, maybe answers would help other guys who are fed upwith ongoing circle jerk about new magic cures or companies boasting about futuretreatments showing obviously scammed photos (Histogen fkn lol).


So my questions are:


1. If someone put gun to your head andsaid: „If for the rest of your life you cant use finasteride, dutasteride, RU orminox, what will be your choice from existing treatments?â€￾ Or inother words, according to your knowledge what would be the bestoption/regimen from available B-league treatments? Or you just giveup on less proved/effective ways to combat hairloss and just shaveyour head? :)


2. Do you think that bodyfat levels,hormones or overall health play some role in aquiring side effectswith AA, or is it just genetic predisposition? Do you have some ideawhy some guys are affected by sides no sooner than months/years afterstarting treatment?


3. Finally, can you say more about yourcurrent regime? I read somewhere that after hair transplant you plan tocycle different AA's.


Thanks you.
 

potato87

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Swoop how do you feel about CB? I'm about to start in a few weeks as not interested with finasteride as I want kids soon. I'm hoping by using it I can hold myself at Norwood 2/2.5 until something better comes along!
 

inmyhead

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Swoop, where do you buy your RU from?I tried buying from ziom, but i think it's fake as i dont get any effect using it
 

I.D WALKER

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Hey Swoop,
Great personal recap btw.
So do I understand correctly that the purpose of a 6 month rotation between RU/finasteride is twofold;
and you're trying to minimize adverse sides while also extending their "potency life span",
or basically eking out as much mileage from each of them as you can + tolerate?
Thanx again
 

Swoop

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Swoop how do you feel about CB? I'm about to start in a few weeks as not interested with finasteride as I want kids soon. I'm hoping by using it I can hold myself at Norwood 2/2.5 until something better comes along!

It seems "ok" from the data and I'm curious for the safety profile. Bit of a pity that we didn't get data on that. Pound for pound I do think RU58841 is stronger though, and we have good reasoning to believe that. Anecdotal evidence does seem to show that CB-03-01 is well handled and it works.

That being said the first thing people should look at is always finasteride. You do know you can get kids on finasteride? You can always start now and quit temporarily too. I can understand your concerns though. Why not get on finasteride after though? Or is your Androgenetic Alopecia so aggressive that you can't wait anymore?

Swoop, where do you buy your RU from? I tried buying from ziom, but i think it's fake as i dont get any effect using it

Anageninc. Ziom should be legit man. Maybe RU isn't for you or your expectations are too high. Besides that there is the possibility of it not working for you. Finasteride doesn't work for everyone too as gauged by the scientific evidence and definitely if we look at the anecdotes.

Hey Swoop,
Great personal recap btw.
So do I understand correctly that the purpose of a 6 month rotation between RU/finasteride is twofold;
and you're trying to minimize adverse sides while also extending their "potency life span",
or basically eking out as much mileage from each of them as you can + tolerate?
Thanx again

Thanks Walker. Yes, well I have grown a bit more sensitive towards RU too. Kinda crazy as I handled way higher dosages in the past. Don't ask me how that is possible lol.. So yeah I'm doing like a minimum maintenance treatment to just stay above baseline while holding the negative aspects that come with it to a minimum or non-existent level. I can do it and I keep track of my hair pretty well. If I will notice it will get worse I will take action, but I don't see the need now. Just playing a bit around honestly :).
 

g.i joey

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Swoop your transplant looks really solid man. Do you know whay your final Norwood would be if you were to never take treatments? And also at what age did you opt for the transplant? I'm a diffuse nw2-3 right now at 23 but I'm guessing my hairloss is too aggressive for a transplant. My dad was almost slick bald at 29
 

Swoop

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Swoop your transplant looks really solid man. Do you know whay your final Norwood would be if you were to never take treatments? And also at what age did you opt for the transplant? I'm a diffuse nw2-3 right now at 23 but I'm guessing my hairloss is too aggressive for a transplant. My dad was almost slick bald at 29

Thanks mate. My final pattern would probably be a NW5-6, pretty sure of that actually. I had my hair transplant last year January, I was 26 back then. Your hair seemed pretty damn solid and thick to me, with only recession going on? Or do I confuse you with someone else? Anyway, maybe you can find a way outside finasteride that will at least slow down things for you. Enough people get hair transplants without being on anything, but if you are really progressing fast it's not a good idea. Let's say you are still pretty damn stable in a couple of years it might be a real possibility for you.
 

potato87

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It seems "ok" from the data and I'm curious for the safety profile. Bit of a pity that we didn't get data on that. Pound for pound I do think RU58841 is stronger though, and we have good reasoning to believe that. Anecdotal evidence does seem to show that CB-03-01 is well handled and it works.

That being said the first thing people should look at is always finasteride. You do know you can get kids on finasteride? You can always start now and quit temporarily too. I can understand your concerns though. Why not get on finasteride after though? Or is your Androgenetic Alopecia so aggressive that you can't wait anymore?

I don't think I want to go through the shed knowing I will have to stop in 8 months or so (when we start trying) then the idea of not knowing when I could get back on it would be very frustrating, I think I like the concept of topical applications and I really want to minimise the chance of sides.
 

Swoop

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I don't think I want to go through the shed knowing I will have to stop in 8 months or so (when we start trying) then the idea of not knowing when I could get back on it would be very frustrating, I think I like the concept of topical applications and I really want to minimise the chance of sides.

I understand. Just don't let your wife come in contact with it if you are going to use it, especially if she is pregnant. I'm sure you are aware of that though, it's the same for finasteride really.
 

deniak

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Hi Swoop,


Thanks for comprehensive response. Well, I have almost identical conclusions in most of matters as you. Im in hairloss community only year, but can affirm that my thoughts are becoming more and more obsessive and were slowly transform ourselves into Androgenetic Alopecia treatments / news junkies, what really sucks. Things that happens on hairloss forums are also sad in some way. In search of holy grail most people are basically losing time, energy and money while lying themselves and achieving subpar results. Me included:(


Im currently NW2-3 and possibly in the future I will follow your hair transplant footsteps. My problem is that I decided to not mess with body DHT levels. Im really afraid of long term sexual / cognitive side effects, not going to lie here. Its sad that to this day we dont have approved formulation of topical AA working only on balding area... I read somwhere that 2016 is called a year of finasteride lawsuits, so I HOPE that finasteride get as bad rap as possible, because only destroying reputation of this drug can make way on the market for new, safer AA treatment.


Im about 2 months into my current regime, which is similiar to your old one, but without RU/finasteride:
- minoxidil 5% with added EGCG and oleuropein (Chemical thread from BTT)
- Stemoxydine(+ same as above)
- hydrocortisone 0,5% cream
- miconazole 2% cream,
- Retinol cream (at first used for skin health only, but after two weeks using it E5D I saw enourmous regrowth of hairs on cheeks and between both temples and eye area)
Additionally: dermastamp 1,5mm 2/3x month, dermaroller 0,2mm 3xweek (for increased absorption of topicals) and Keto shampoo once in a while.


What really piss me off is fact that Im currently noticing different, confusing things:


- Right temple: I see huge regrowth of small, weak but pigmented hairs on NW1 old hairline BUT SAME TIME I see very slow but visible diffuse thining in NW3 area.
- Left temple: comparison macro photos shows that minoxidil 2% somehow managed to save all hairs on thinned hairline for almost a year (unfortunately no regrowth) but SAME TIME few cm higher I see very aggresive thinning going on further into NW3 area.


To sum it up – I see progress in regrowth of cosmetically irrelevant hairs, but in daylight it looks like Im slowly losing ground. I dont know if Im going through medication induced shed or its good old male pattern baldness speeding up his work...


My plan is to wait 3 more months before I evaluate effectiveness fo this regime, and then decide what to do...


Can you say more about your RU and finasteride dosage and side effects (if its not private matter)? And whats your thoughts on topical finasteride? There are few threads about it across boards.


Thanks again, I really appreciate your help.
 

slam1523

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Hey man it's totally cool, sorry for the late reply! Was a bit busy last days.

1. CB-03-01, because that isn't on your list. Hitting the androgen/AR angle is by far the best thing we can do. Sucks to say that anno 2016 but it is what it is. Many of us are just limited in how hard we can hit the angle, because it's not practical (unwanted side effects etc.). I would always look into possibilities to hit the androgen/AR angle. So if I would need to use from B-league treatments I would look into something like topical spironoctalone (Weaker AR antagonism) coupled with alfatradiol (5ar inhibitor plus weak affinity to the estrogen receptors). Followed by bimatoprost. It's all about keeping yourself above baseline for a maximum amount of time. That being said in my personal situation that would be just a delay of the inevitable. So then the question arises "Is it worth to do this if all these treatments if they are a mere delay of what is going to happen in the near future"? Probably not in my case. I highly doubt that such a regimen would keep me above baseline for a long amount of time. In reality it would probably help somewhat but I would just continue to bald anyway and dive below baseline pretty quickly.

3. Sure, first let me give you a bit of history. I landed on these forums one day because my hair loss was getting out of control. Particularly my hair line was suffering and it was going fast towards NW3+ territory. I started to learn about everything and my goal was simply to stop my balding process, but the ultimate goal was to restore my hair line. So I tried many things but ultimately settled for a potent regimen of a very high dosage of RU coupled with minoxidil + retin-a + hydrocortisone + neogenic. Honestly it was leaning towards a obsession. Truth being told the regimen was very good for my hair and my hair quality improved for the better and even my hairline and temples improved a bit. Here is a picture. The first picture is not even my baseline picture it was a bit worse and you can see the minor temple improvement;

Naamloosssss.jpg


What's more interesting is when I dropped all treatments temporarily and went for a hair transplant. The day of my hair transplant my hair quality was very sh*tty as you can see in the topic I made about my hair transplant. You can see it in the following top 4 pictures, it's evident the hair quality is way worse (weak brittle hair), even while the lightning conditions are different;

minicollage.jpg


So why did I go for a hair transplant and switched to a minimum maintenance treatment?

Remember my ultimate goal was to regrow my hairline and that didn't happen. I had improvement in my hairline area but it wasn't near the goal I had in mind. Sure I could take things even further by hitting the androgen/AR angle even harder but I started to suffer from side effects already. More importantly things need to be taken continuously and I didn't want to end up living as a slave of my Androgenetic Alopecia. F*ck that. I was biased against hair transplants but after researching it a bit more I knew that it was a real possibility to actually accomplish my goal of getting my hairline back. Also I knew that I reacted pretty well to the androgen/AR angle as evidenced by my hair quality increase on a potent regimen.

So I asked myself the question.. Why wouldn't I opt for a minimum maintenance treatment that keeps me above baseline level coupled with a hair transplant to fill in my frontal hairline? First of all that would be more healthy because I wouldn't be on such a extreme regimen. Also this would obviously achieve my goal (the regrowth at my hairline).. More importantly maybe this would make me dominate Androgenetic Alopecia, not the other way around. I couldn't stand the vision of me anymore applying tons of sh*t in high dosages for the coming years. And the side-effects were getting a problem too.

So that's what I did man. My hair transplant turned out to be a excellent decision that totally beats the obsessive stuff I was doing that simply wasn't healthy for me personally. And guess what? The only concern now isn't more regrowth. The only concern now is to stay above baseline and I can do that by opting for a minimum maintenance treatment.

And that is what I do now basically. I cycle RU 6 months/6 months off/finasteride 6 months. I can do this because I believe I will stay above baseline for many years to come even with a regimen like this (reference 5 year finasteride graph 1 year on, 1 year placebo). Like I said, my hair follicles respond very well to the androgen/AR angle. Luck is on my side I guess with this. I have basically 12 months of androgen/AR intervention with a 6 month off period now. I'm confident that this will keep me above baseline levels for at least some years to come :). Sure I could go on a more potent regimen again but that would have minor beneficial effects in reality and bring a whole bunch of negative aspects in my life.

A dream for me now would be to get a treatment that totally makes me immune to Androgenetic Alopecia permanently. That would be a total win for me and us all, but can't have everything I guess.

Can't answer your second question though. I think generally everyone should try to stay fit by exercising and maintain a somewhat healthy diet. This doesn't relate specifically to side effects with AA's but as overall life advice.

So what about your situation? I assume you suffer from side effects with AA therapy? It's mostly trial & error really. Maybe you will find something that you can cope with? What sort of treatments did you try already? Anyway if you have more questions just shoot them, thanks man.

Wow your transplant looks phenomenal! How many grafts did you do, and who was your doctor if you don't mind my asking?
 

Swoop

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My plan is to wait 3 more months before I evaluate effectiveness fo this regime, and then decide what to do...


Can you say more about your RU and finasteride dosage and side effects (if its not private matter)? And whats your thoughts on topical finasteride? There are few threads about it across boards.


Thanks again, I really appreciate your help.

Seems like a solid regimen deniak. Give it some more time and I hope it works for you. Meanwhile maybe evaluate treatments again that hit the androgen/AR angle. Perhaps your standpoint will change. Only you can make the decision though. I don't know how old you are but if you can maintain or at least slow down your hair somewhat a hair transplant might be a very good option for you.

Anyway yeah. I used RU at around ~250mg (ridiculous dosage don't ever do this). Eventually side effects did creep up on me. At night I would wake up sweating. I also experienced cognitive issues. Had troubles finding words when communicating with other people. I was getting forgetful. No doubt that I had high systemic accumulation of the stuff which resulted in side effects that are common to systemic anti-androgen therapy. Ironically I had not much sexual issues at all.

I tried finasteride at 1mg too. This hit me more in terms of sexual side effects so I quit that after 6 months. Zero spontaneous erections, no morning wood. Less pleasurable orgasms and not a high libido. I could perform though, but everything was just "dampened".

Now my regimen consists of 50mg RU (no side effects, maybe only subtle sometimes after application can't go much higher anymore though) and 0.5mg finasteride MWF (no side effects, but haven't taken it for too long yet, giving it another shot).

Topical finasteride will go systemic through topical administration almost as much as it will go through oral administration. This has been shown in studies. The studies are laughable in itself. Also I have seen anecdotal reports from people who got side effects on oral finasteride, and got the same side effects on topical finasteride from the formulation of H&W. The only thing that I can think off which would be somewhat different with topical finasteride is that metabolism might occur differently, which could influence the side effect profile. That's it pretty much.

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Wow your transplant looks phenomenal! How many grafts did you do, and who was your doctor if you don't mind my asking?

Thanks. All information here man; http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/showthread.php/90705-Dr-Hakan-*********-2835-Grafts-FUE.
 

deniak

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Wow, I look at your hair transplant thread, its unbelievable how devastating shedding can be (similiar to one in hellouser RU log) while few months later how spectacular comeback can be...

One additional word about topical finasteride. Have you read full paper of this study?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10495374
I wonder why they didnt provide results of serum DHT levels of 0.01 mg in abstract?
Who knows, maybe there is some sweet spot between doses of 0.01 mg (scalp -15% DHT, serum ???) and 0.05 mg (scalp -61%, serum -49%)? All doses shows almost flat % of DHT suppressed in scalp, serum reduction looks more dose dependent. So maybe with topical application between 0.01-0.05mg we can get enough action at follicles to slow down hairloss, while remain serum levels of DHT in acceptable, sides free range? Recent Polichem, unfortunately very weak study might be some cue:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26636418
Topical micro doses of 0.1 nad 0.2 ml resulted in scalp DHT reduction of 50% and serum reduction of 25%, which is night and day in comparison to standard, „safeâ€￾ 0.2 mg treatment (56% scalp and 68% serum reduction).

I have last, but most important question about your old routine before hair transplant. Did you have some strict schedule of using different substances? I know its old story for you, but Im currently on similiar routine, any details or info about percentages used, amount and time of application (hydrocortisone, ru, minoxidil, retin-a) would be very valuable for me. Do you have some log? I cant find anything on this board.

Cheers!
 

mikes23

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Hey swoop I got a few questions regarding ru and cb,wondering if you could help me out.
1.) Where do you store your Ru? I have a mini fridgelike the ones that come in a college dorm. Can I store it in there or does ithave to be the freezer? And does it have to be stored away from food or if it’ssealed up it doesn’t matter? Also do you store it in a certain bag
2.) I know RU is suppose to break down into a weakeranti-androgen and it seems at a high enough dose it does go systematic, so doyou think if RU goes systematic will it have an effect on muscle mass orstrength. I’m taking finasteride right now andalthough I do not believe it has affected me with building muscle, I do feel mystrength might be getting affected. I cant say it has for sure, but once I getoff of finasteride I can talk more about that, but that’s why I was curious if RU couldaffect your training since anti-androgens are known to hinder muscle mass andstrength. So if RU gets absorbed could it block the receptors in your muscles? Couldit potentially be worse then finasteride, not saying finasteride does affect your training, butknowing that anti- androgrens block both T and DHT, not just 70% of dht……couldyou see it causing more of an affect?
3.) Regarding CB does cosmo state how much of theproduct is converted to cortisol when it enters the blood stream?
4.) I was reading that 10 micrograms of RU outperformed 400 micrograms of CB. So why is everyone switching to CB then? Does RUreally produce that much sides, or because most people were using a high amount(100mgan up) since RU was suppose to metabolize into something weaker and not givesides. Do you feel we will notice people getting sides from cb if they use100mg like how people did with Ru. or do you believe CB is side effect free like they claim.

Btw when I say sides its nothingthat serious with finasteride, but I do want to take a break from it and just see howthese other treatments work. I don’t think I will get any sides from RU or CBbut Im just concerned with it affecting my training. I’ve been trying toresearch this but both are limited with information. And you have experiencewith both finasteride and RU so I figured you would have a better understanding ofboth.
 

Dench57

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Hi Swoop, should I fake my orgasms?
 

I.D WALKER

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If I may butt in for a moment Dench;
I believe you'll be okay as long as you think you'll be able respect yourself in the morning? :)
Hi Swoop, should I fake my orgasms?
 

Swoop

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Wow, I look at your hair transplant thread, its unbelievable how devastating shedding can be (similiar to one in hellouser RU log) while few months later how spectacular comeback can be...

One additional word about topical finasteride. Have you read full paper of this study?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10495374
I wonder why they didnt provide results of serum DHT levels of 0.01 mg in abstract?
Who knows, maybe there is some sweet spot between doses of 0.01 mg (scalp -15% DHT, serum ???) and 0.05 mg (scalp -61%, serum -49%)? All doses shows almost flat % of DHT suppressed in scalp, serum reduction looks more dose dependent. So maybe with topical application between 0.01-0.05mg we can get enough action at follicles to slow down hairloss, while remain serum levels of DHT in acceptable, sides free range? Recent Polichem, unfortunately very weak study might be some cue:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26636418
Topical micro doses of 0.1 nad 0.2 ml resulted in scalp DHT reduction of 50% and serum reduction of 25%, which is night and day in comparison to standard, „safe” 0.2 mg treatment (56% scalp and 68% serum reduction).

I have last, but most important question about your old routine before hair transplant. Did you have some strict schedule of using different substances? I know its old story for you, but Im currently on similiar routine, any details or info about percentages used, amount and time of application (hydrocortisone, ru, minoxidil, retin-a) would be very valuable for me. Do you have some log? I cant find anything on this board.

Cheers!

Hey Deniak,

If you want to get full studies use Sci-hub! Interestingly when we go to the conclusion of that study;

This study was conducted to determine the pharmacologic effects of doses of 5 mg or less of finasteride on balding scalp skin and serum androgen levels. Patients treated with 0.05 mg or more of finasteride had greater median reductions in scalp skin DHT than patients in the placebo or 0.01 mg finasteride groups. However, the 0.05 mg dose was suboptimal in terms of serum DHT suppression. Doses of at least 0.2 mg were needed to maximally suppress both scalp skin and serum DHT levels. Thesedata support the rationale used to conduct clinical trials in men with hair loss at doses between 0.2 and 5 mg~ because local scalp and serum DHT appear to contribute to total scalp DHT levels, and both may be important in the pathophysiology of male pattern hair loss in men.

That's an important point for instance. You are right though, maybe there is some sweet spot between 0.01 and 0.05mg... Seeing from the data 0.01 seems to barely decrease serum DHT. And also if we look at Polichem... Where did they actually measure the scalp DHT reduction? Did they measure it at the spot where they applied the 0.1ml and 0.2ml solution? Or did they measure it on the whole other side of the scalp for instance? That is also important to know right.

What can I say though. Ultimately you'll have to try and trial & error yourself to evaluate what works for you at what dosage and what you can tolerate. Using any finasteride dosage will be pretty much better than doing nothing at all I guess. However if we look at the following study 0.01mg orally didn't seem really effective; https://www.hairlosstalk.com/hair-loss-pdf/finasteride-doses.pdf
haircountfindosages.jpg



Regarding your second question. I had my RU mixed into my minoxidil. I applied that, and over that I applied a gel that I bought from some polish member actually. It was composed of 1% hydrocortisone and 0.025% retin-a. I applied that gel a few minutes after my minoxidil/ru application. I used it once daily. Nothing really special I guess :). Hope that helps!

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@mikes23

1. Room temperature is fine just make it airtight and put it in a dark place. Both a solution and powder will do fine in room temperature for quite some time. To maximize shelf life you can put the powder in the freezer though.

2. I guess it's a possibility if too much of it goes systemic. Personally my gym performance doesn't get affected at all. Honestly you will most likely feel other side effects first if it gets systemic too much.

3. I didn't see the data anywhere of a 5% concentration of CB-03-01. Anyway if we look at here; http://www.cassiopea.com/activities/product-pipeline/winlevi.aspx (Winlevi is the same as CB-03-01 just a 1% concentration for acne). We can see the following;

No clinically relevant safety issues were noted with any of the concentrations of Winlevi™ tested and no clinically relevant signs of the typical Local Skin Reactions (LSR) generally associated with corticosteroids use were appreciated. In the HPA / PK study only 3 out of 42 subjects resulted borderline in the lab test relevant to HP axis, with no sign of clinical corticosteroid specific adverse events.

So, yeah using a higher concentration might result in different data obviously.

4. Where did you read that? Anyway yeah I think RU is stronger. RU exhibits 20% stronger binding to the AR than cyproterone acetate and CB-03-01 was estimated to be around the same potency as cyproterone acetate. RU58841 can definitely produce side effects in some people. I don't believe CB will be side effect free for everybody. If you look at the 1% concentration borderline HP axis changes were seen in 3 subjects out of the 42, but remember this is at 1%. Using RU5881 at 1% isn't the same either as using it as a 5% concentration. We need more data though! Wasn't impressed of CB-03-01 latest results at all though.

Why do you feel it has affected your strength btw? Did you go back in strength or..?

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Hi Swoop, should I fake my orgasms?

 

Swoop

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Swoop how do I get abs and chest like you?

Secret ingredient? Beer.
On a serious note it's not hard at all to get a proper physique really. Just hit the gym hard and consistently and get the basics down of eating well! That's all. Everyone can do it, as long as you put in the effort :punk:.
 

buckthorn

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This is what I'm chasing. I'm a 3D artist so I sit waaay too much. Not sure how I'm going to get the abs back with all that sitting and pizza. :D Need to add some cardio. I've PMed you but I might post it here as well. This is the physique I'm after (and hair too XP):

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Vincent, try an exercise bike. I got a really nice from amazon for like $80. During days where I have to be on the computer a lot, I rigged up a stand for my laptop. You can just pedal away while you're working on the computer. It gets to the point where you forget you're even on it and have burned a ton of cals.
 
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