Need Topical for Regrowth

[htownballa]

Hey guys,

Ok the frontal 1 inch of my scalp is over 70% miniturized. This means that Propecia will not really do any regrowing and maybe not even any maintenance here.

What I am looking for is a topical (not minoxidil) that will stimulate hair growth in a different mechanism than Propecia. Also, I dont want the hairs to become physically dependent on the topical like they become with minoxidil. 2 possibilities I had were 5% spironolactone and Prox-N. Any others, or which one would you recommend?

Thanks

PS Im using Propecia/Tricomin combo for now

 

[Bryan]

You want to find a treatment that you only have to use for a while, and it will maintain the results even after you quit?? Good luck with that...

Bryan

 

[htownballa]

No, I want to find a treatment that I can use for a while, but if I stop using it I won't shed like a mother ie minoxidil. If I use tricomin for example I am not forced to use it the rest of my life like propecia and minoxidil because it does not induce any physiologic changes in the body, only a anti-ox/growth stimulant.

I do realize that benefical effects of the topical will go away if i stop using it tho duh!

 

[Bryan]

No, I want to find a treatment that I can use for a while, but if I stop using it I won't shed like a mother ie minoxidil. If I use tricomin for example I am not forced to use it the rest of my life like propecia and minoxidil because it does not induce any physiologic changes in the body, only a anti-ox/growth stimulant.

I don't know what you mean by "physiologic changes". Those treatments are all the same in that if you stop using any of them, you will lose all the results.

I do realize that benefical effects of the topical will go away if i stop using it tho duh!

So what's the difference?

 

[htownballa]

The difference is that one drug (hairloss med) will cause your body to become physically dependent on it, while another will be beneficial to the hair loss fight by say decreasing inflammation. When I say physically depenednent I mean that a long term "physiologic change" occurs ie upregulation of DHT receptors cause by propecia or the permananent changes in hair follicles after long term minoxidil use.

That is why if you miss dosages with minoxidil and propecia you are effed. I've never heard anyone say "After missing 2 weeks of tricomin, my hair really never recovered!" Of course that could be because tricomin isn't really that effective in the first place :lol: I want the option of changing/editing my regimen. You can't do that with finasteride/minoxidil unless you are willing to sacrifice hair.

Anyways, back to my question: would spironolactone 5% of proxiphen cause a similar type dependence and are the beneficial in regrowing hair? Or should I use something else?

 

[Bryan]

The difference is that one drug (hairloss med) will cause your body to become physically dependent on it, while another will be beneficial to the hair loss fight by say decreasing inflammation.

You will be physically dependent on ANY treatment that you use, even the ones that decrease inflammation. If you stop using any of them, you will lose the beneficial results you got from them.

The only treatment I know of which causes a PERMANENT beneficial effect on balding is castration! :wink:

When I say physically depenednent I mean that a long term "physiologic change" occurs ie upregulation of DHT receptors cause by propecia or the permananent changes in hair follicles after long term minoxidil use.

The upregulation of androgen receptors that you get with Propecia will go back to normal after discontinuing the drug. I don't know of any "permanent change" in hair follicles that's caused by minoxidil. The best available evidence indicates that minoxidil causes a simple "offset of growth" for hair follicles. Some people confuse the continuation of the balding process with what they think is a direct result of the minoxidil usage itself.

That is why if you miss dosages with minoxidil and propecia you are effed.

The same is true of any treatment.

I want the option of changing/editing my regimen. You can't do that with finasteride/minoxidil unless you are willing to sacrifice hair.

Baloney.

Anyways, back to my question: would spironolactone 5% of proxiphen cause a similar type dependence and are the beneficial in regrowing hair? Or should I use something else?

All treatments cause the same type of dependence.

Bryan

 

[CCS]

I second everything bryan said, and want to add a little analogy.

male pattern baldness genes never go away. As long as you have those genes, your hair's survival depends on you defending it some how. That is the way the hair is dependent. There is no addition dependence. If you get off of any med, you will lose hair until you reach the point where you would have been without the meds. No more, no less.

Perhaps NANO can replace minoxidil, since they use the same mechanism, and dutasteride or RU or spironolactone or revivogen replace finasteride, if you male pattern baldness is weak enough, agaiin because they have the same mechanism.

When you change to something with a different mechanism, you might also keep the same hair counts, or you might not. You would have to do it gradually, though.

But if you are taking to, and the cut one of them, and were at the max results of both before, the one will not compensate for the loss of the other.

 

[Guest]

how do you tell how miniaturized your scalp is yourself?

 

[htownballa]

I'm not sure I am following you Bryan...

Read this thread you posted in: I agree with what "nesta" was saying about dependency...so are you saying it is wrong to look at it from this perspective? His definition and my definition are the same.

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions ... t&start=60

Also, I realize that you will be "dependent" on every treatment you use in YOUR sense of the word. For example, lets say someone takes up long distance running to lose weight. They lose 50 lbs and are now in good shape. In your sense of the word, they are "dependent" on running to keep up their physique. In my sense of the word they are not. They can keep up their "non-obsese" physique by simply avoiding junk food etc but are not dependent to run the rest of their life to keep off the weight.

Also, I realize the upregulation of receptors caused by propecia will go back to normal after a while. But that takes a while and by that time you will have lost any hair that propecia helped you gain. So if you stop taking propecia, you will quickly get back to baseline regardless of how long you have been taking the drug. Is this also true of every other treatment???
This same type of upregulation happens with ALL other treatments you are saying? I find that hard to believe.

If you tell me that spironolactone and proxiphen cause a similar type physiologic change as propecia/minoxidil does, ie upregulation of androgen receptors, then you are right in that I am dependent on them forever. However, if they only help your hair by blocking DHT receptors and not causing any upregulation throughout their use, then i feel it would be ok to discontinue their use without a negative impact. Do you understand what i am saying?

 

[bubka]

you can miss dosage of propecia and be just fine, hell even 2-3 days and probably no real change in your scalp DHT levels...

give it some time, its have only been about 2 months... regrowth start at 4th earliest

that running analogy is bad... for a number of reasons

weight is calories in vs calories out... most runners do eat less, it just the nature of the changes in the body...

 

[htownballa]

you can miss dosage of propecia and be just fine, hell even 2-3 days and probably no real change in your scalp DHT levels...

give it some time, its have only been about 2 months... regrowth start at 4th earliest

that running analogy is bad... for a number of reasons

weight is calories in vs calories out... most runners do eat less, it just the nature of the changes in the body...

You are missing my point. I'm not arguing that you should not miss a couple of dosages of propecia. I agree with that. What I am saying is that there is a difference between taking prescription meds like propecia and topicals (excluding Rogaine). Also, my shedding seems to have slowed down quite a bit and i think my hair is thickening up a little in the crown area, but my frontal area is too far gone for propecia to be effective there i think. I want to add some more weapons to my arsenal. Should I use proxiphen or spironolactone 5% for the frontal regrowth? Which is better/stronger? Maybe something else altogether?

Thanks

 

[Bryan]

I'm not sure I am following you Bryan...

Read this thread you posted in: I agree with what "nesta" was saying about dependency...so are you saying it is wrong to look at it from this perspective? His definition and my definition are the same.

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions ... t&start=60

I don't want to have to read through that whole long thread again. Can you post which specific part you're talking about?

Also, I realize the upregulation of receptors caused by propecia will go back to normal after a while. But that takes a while and by that time you will have lost any hair that propecia helped you gain. So if you stop taking propecia, you will quickly get back to baseline regardless of how long you have been taking the drug. Is this also true of every other treatment???

I'm not necessarily claiming that ALL treatments will cause you to revert to baseline levels at the same speed when you stop them. Just that it'll happen sooner or later.

This same type of upregulation happens with ALL other treatments you are saying? I find that hard to believe.

Are you talking specifically about androgen receptor upregulation, or something else?? That would only happen when using any type of antiandrogen or 5a-reductase inhibitor...

If you tell me that spironolactone and proxiphen cause a similar type physiologic change as propecia/minoxidil does, ie upregulation of androgen receptors, then you are right in that I am dependent on them forever. However, if they only help your hair by blocking DHT receptors and not causing any upregulation throughout their use, then i feel it would be ok to discontinue their use without a negative impact. Do you understand what i am saying?

As far as I can tell, you appear to be worried that if you discontinue a given treatment, your hair might get WORSE than it was destined to be before (for whatever reason), and stay that way. But I know of no evidence for that. My assumption is that when you discontinue any treatment, you'll simply eventually go back to where you would have been without it. It might happen faster or slower, depending on the exact treatment you're talking about. My guess (and that's all it is) is that something like Proxiphen would probably have the slowest return to "normal" after discontinuation, thanks to all those agents with healing properties that he uses (SODs, PBN, TEMPO/TEMPOL, etc.).

Bryan

 

[htownballa]

I'm not necessarily claiming that ALL treatments will cause you to revert to baseline levels at the same speed when you stop them. Just that it'll happen sooner or later.

Bryan, I only half agree with this statement. We all know for example, that scalp health is important in slowing male pattern baldness. Assume you use tricomin for a year which heals the scalp and creates a healthy environment. This regimen thickens up hair. Then you stop using tricomin forever. Then yes you will eventually revert to baseline slowly but due to the fundamental balding process that continues at the same pace had you not used tricomin. Thus, you can say that your use of tricomin for one year gave you more hair and thus a higher baseline after you stopped usage.

On the other hand, a "side effect" of propecia is too upregulate DHT receptors. So assume you use propecia for one year and have thickening hair. Then you stop the propecia. Due to upregulated DHT receptors, your hair will quickly go back to baseline. The fundamental difference in these 2 drugs is the speed of losing hair. In the tricomin example, you only lose hair due to the natural balding process, while in the finasteride example you lose it due to natural balding PLUS a physiologic body change (upregulation). The way I look it at is that tricomin usage in a sense will give me a higher baseline while with finasteride the higher baseline was only momentary.

Do you see where I'm coming from? I guess you can look at it from the viewpoint: Will stoppage in proxiphen and spironolactone 5% use bring me back down to baseline because of balding resuming or balding + upregulation.

Are you talking specifically about androgen receptor upregulation, or something else?? That would only happen when using any type of antiandrogen or 5a-reductase inhibitor...

I'm talking about any upregulation that will hasten the normal balding process.

As far as I can tell, you appear to be worried that if you discontinue a given treatment, your hair might get WORSE than it was destined to be before (for whatever reason), and stay that way

No I dont think that at all.

 

[Bryan]

Well, so where is the problem with all this? Is it just a concern over how FAST these treatments will revert you to your former condition when you discontinue them?

 

[htownballa]

Well, so where is the problem with all this? Is it just a concern over how FAST these treatments will revert you to your former condition when you discontinue them?

Hehe, I see what you are saying. Ok so in your opinion do you think spironolactone 5% would lead to a quick or slow reversion to baseline?

 

[Dave001]

.... My assumption is that when you discontinue any treatment, you'll simply eventually go back to where you would have been without it. It might happen faster or slower, depending on the exact treatment you're talking about. My guess (and that's all it is) is that something like Proxiphen would probably have the slowest return to "normal" after discontinuation, thanks to all those agents with healing properties that he uses (SODs, PBN, TEMPO/TEMPOL, etc.).

The monograph for finasteride claims that one can expect a return to their initial pre-treatment state about a year after cessation. This is a guesstimate.

An interesting question is whether the reversal experienced during antiandrogenic treatment represents a true reversal of the underlying damage, such that discontinuation simply causes the resumption of the process from the current point (at stopping). I would expect an initial period of accelerated loss due to transient changes in sensitivity.

Has this been carefully studied?

 

[Dave001]

Bryan, I only half agree with this statement. We all know for example, that scalp health is important in slowing male pattern baldness. Assume you use tricomin for a year which heals the scalp and creates a healthy environment. This regimen thickens up hair. Then you stop using tricomin forever. Then yes you will eventually revert to baseline slowly but due to the fundamental balding process that continues at the same pace had you not used tricomin. Thus, you can say that your use of tricomin for one year gave you more hair and thus a higher baseline after you stopped usage.

On the other hand, a "side effect" of propecia is too upregulate DHT receptors. So assume you use propecia for one year and have thickening hair. Then you stop the propecia. Due to upregulated DHT receptors, your hair

<musings>

Your concerns are not rational.

 

[CCS]

we don't know how fast propecia people lose their hair after getting off. Merk took a data point a year later, where it was near baseline. They did not take intermediate points. We don't know if the shed is as fast as the minoxidil shed.

I want to know what treatments actually repair damage, and not just stimulate growth, or prevent further damage.

We still don't even know what concentration tricomin is.

If someone makes a potion, gives it to FDA, and FDA says it works, then I don't care what the ingredients are. I'm buying it. But if someone makes a potion, FDA says it is good, and then the people change the potion, and refuse to tell me what the change is because they don't want some other company mimicing it, I still will not buy it, because I don't know if it works. If I buy it, i might as well buy avacore, or nisim, or some other untested potion. If they thought it would work, they would have had FDA test it the first time. Why spend money to have FDA test a product you are not even going to sell?