Most effective Antiandrogen and Dutasteride Failures

[Vigaku]

Some of this may have been answered but there's in addition a question I've had in mind for a while.

Is there a drug that can completely or almost completely eliminate all the DHT in your body? I've been reading that Propecia eliminates around 60-70% of DHT in the body. This percentage doesn't happen to be the Type II DHT does it? Or is the 60-70% of the follicle destroying DHT?

The other question was I was just wondering why there have been sever recent reported cases of dutasteride failures. I've read someone who switched from finast/minoxidil to rogaine/dutast became worse, then I read a case where dutasteride wasn't working on someone at all but finasteride was. I thought logically dutasteride was superior to finasteride.

 

[Mens Rea]

mate u need DHT in your body it would become dangerous if you lost too much i do believe

as regards your second question - i dont know either. dutasteride isn't necessarily a stronger version of finasteride so maybe they work differently?

From my reading dutasteride doesn't seem to be a great job at all actually and usually the people who resort to using it are too far gone anyway

 

[Bryan]

Is there a drug that can completely or almost completely eliminate all the DHT in your body? I've been reading that Propecia eliminates around 60-70% of DHT in the body. This percentage doesn't happen to be the Type II DHT does it? Or is the 60-70% of the follicle destroying DHT?

At the typical finasteride doses that are used, finasteride inhibits around 85% to 90% of the type II enzyme, and insignificant amounts of the type I enzyme.

At the standard Avodart dosage, dutasteride inhibits around 98% to 99% of the type II enzmye, and somewhere around half or so of the type I enzyme. Larger amounts of dutasteride will reduce DHT even more, but you're on your own for that one!

 

[Vigaku]

Damn...80-90% of the type II? The kind the fooks up the follicles correct?

As for the dutasteride issue, can someone, anyone elaborate on what the first poster said. WHY is it screwing up with some people?

And dude...

You're saying taking more than the average dose of dutasteride eliminates more DHT. I assume you mean the type I then because 98% of type 2 is already gone. Just want to be sure on what you meant.

Also if I'm not mistaken scientists don't know FOR SURE if it's only type II that screws up the follicle, but chances are it's mostly type II causing the hair loss.

 

[Bryan]

Damn...80-90% of the type II? The kind the fooks up the follicles correct?

Correct.

And dude...

You're saying taking more than the average dose of dutasteride eliminates more DHT. I assume you mean the type I then because 98% of type 2 is already gone. Just want to be sure on what you meant.

Yes. That seems to be a conclusion we have to draw.

Also if I'm not mistaken scientists don't know FOR SURE if it's only type II that screws up the follicle, but chances are it's mostly type II causing the hair loss.

Yes. That seems likely, because finasteride works against male pattern baldness, but MK386 (alll by itself) doesn't seem to work to any significant degree. Surely it must work a little bit, though.

 

[CCS]

I'd be afraid to inhibit that much DHT in the long run, internally. Better to use add an anti-inflammatory shampoo like Nizoral, and an androgen receptor blocker like topical spironolactone or EGCG or lavender esential oil. And some copper peptides here and there to reverse fibrosis. Topical 5ar1 inhibitors would be nice too, as would topical estrogen mimickers.

 

[Jack]

The other question was I was just wondering why there have been sever recent reported cases of dutasteride failures.

Dutasteride is believed to have somewhat less response variation than finasteride ; I wouldn't take the 15 or so dutasteride users on here as an accurate measurement .

 

[Vigaku]

I'd be afraid to inhibit that much DHT in the long run, internally. Better to use add an anti-inflammatory shampoo like Nizoral, and an androgen receptor blocker like topical spironolactone or EGCG or lavender esential oil. And some copper peptides here and there to reverse fibrosis. Topical 5ar1 inhibitors would be nice too, as would topical estrogen mimickers.

Woah...a little too much hair loss products for me to use.

I don't rely on shampoos really. I mean I put it on and it'll get washed out...do I leave it on for a while? I use 5% minoxidil as my only topical after a shower. That's what gets left on overnight.

Androgen receptor blocker...is revivogen kinda like that?

Also not sure why I should take anti-inflammatory stuff. Is that just to treat inflammation which is a cause of male pattern baldness or does it combat hair loss?

 

[Vigaku]

"Propecia inhibits the action of Type II 5-alpha-reductase, thereby decreasing DHT concentrations in treated men by approximately 60 percent."

Ok I must've misunderstood that months ago thinking it inhibits 60% of the DHT that screws you.

I think now it means it eliminates pretty much all type II dht which brings the overall DHT concentration to 60%. Meaning only type I is left. Is that right?

 

[Bryan]

I think now it means it eliminates pretty much all type II dht which brings the overall DHT concentration to 60%. Meaning only type I is left. Is that right?

Like I said before, it probably eliminates around 85% to 90% of type 2, leaving behind only a rather small amount of type 2, and all of the type 1.

 

[hairrific]

I am not sure about this, it's wrong, yes?

here is an excerpt:

There are two types of 5 alpha reductase enzyme each coded by a separate gene and each produced by different tissues, the genes for 5-alpha reductase has been mapped to chromosome 5. Although both may be important in pattern baldness development, type I 5 alpha reductase may be more important because it is highly active in scalp skin and hair follicle sebaceous glands. It produces 60% to 70% of the total DHT in our bodies. Type II produces the remaining 30% to 40% of DHT.

It has been observed that levels of type II 5 alpha reductase in the outer root sheath of scalp hair follicles is less as compared to Type I so it is believed that local activity of both type I and type II 5 alpha reductase which contributes to androgenetic alopecia development.

Here is the link:

http://www.hairlossinformation.com/hair-loss-in-men/DHT-hair-loss.shtml

 

[Bryan]

Although both may be important in pattern baldness development, type I 5 alpha reductase may be more important because it is highly active in scalp skin and hair follicle sebaceous glands. It produces 60% to 70% of the total DHT in our bodies. Type II produces the remaining 30% to 40% of DHT.

The Gisleskog et al studies of finasteride and dutasteride estimate that the type II enzyme produces about 83% of the DHT in the body, with the remainder coming from type I.

Happle & Hoffmann have found that finasteride is the main inhibitor of 5a-reductase in the dermal papilla of human hair follicles.

Finasteride (a specific type II inhibitor) has been proven to be effective for male pattern baldness, whereas MK386 (a specific type I inhibitor) has been found to have little or no effect in either stumptailed macaques or humans.

 

[Vigaku]

...WHAT THE FVCK?!

Such opposite statements...so anyone know who the hell is right?

Which type is predominant in the hair follicle? And if 80% is of one type why the hell not make a drug that inhibits both types? Oh Dutasteride does that, but somehow isn't better than Propecia or doesn't even do as well as it...

This crap is confusing and I'm about to choke the guy sitting next to me.

 

[Bryan]

...WHAT THE FVCK?!

Such opposite statements...so anyone know who the hell is right?

I have no idea where that site you quoted got their information, but the information _I_ quoted came from published studies and articles in medical journals. I trust the latter information, not the former.

Which type is predominant in the hair follicle?

It would appear that type II is predominant in the dermal papilla, if you trust Happle & Hoffmann. And I _do_ trust them. But I'm not sure about the rest of the hair follicle.

And if 80% is of one type why the hell not make a drug that inhibits both types? Oh Dutasteride does that, but somehow isn't better than Propecia or doesn't even do as well as it...

Huh? Where'd you get THAT idea?

 

[hairrific]

I don't trust the article I posted. I don't see any citations for what that web site is saying, ah ha.

I posted that excerpt because it didn't seem to jive with this threads info and I found it stimulating.

From what I think I have learned so far is that is that type I has little effect on hair loss. Seems we can ignore it and blame type II? The proof might be that it seems dutasteride is only showing no improvements to slight improvements over Fanastride.

I wanted to try dutasteride, but for now I can see no major advantages. Still you would think that less Type I is better but seems not necessarily true.

What does type I do that is different from Type II? Maybe it effects body hair and skin more than anything else?

 

[Vigaku]

Ehdunno...

Also about the dutasteride crap, it's all related to the situations where certain guys on here were using it and were doing worse on it than they were with finast. Some guy on the first page of this topic also said dutasteride tends to work less effectively.

Also I did not link anything. It was the awesome dude above me.