Most surgeons seem to say they can do safely achieve a density of 50-60 FU/cm². What I am wondering is does this number change depending on existing density, or is it static? If you already have 50 FU/cm² can they implant 50 more to give you a total density of 100 FU/cm², or is it a curve where the number of units that can be added is reduced by the amount of preexisting hair? My understanding is that there are two factors limiting transplant density. One is the size of the incision which has to be a set distance apart from each other. The other is the available blood supply. The former would seem to allow for implanting the same number of units regardless of the existing density, but perhaps not the latter.
Maximum hair transplant Density And Preexisting Density
- Thread starter pegasus2
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Not sure. Although the size of the incision would probably have to be a little larger than “average” as hair is being implanted in. Therefore it would reduce available area/density freedom by a tad. Atleast that makes sense to me.
Regardless, wanting a density of over 60/70 units would be overkill/unwise without some form of hair multiplication.
Regardless, wanting a density of over 60/70 units would be overkill/unwise without some form of hair multiplication.
Mine tried 65cm2 first attempt into an area with existing native hair and made the area worse. The repairs failed too as too many impacts created excess scar tissue. Im left hanging and trying to get it sorted till this day. it is very tricky but it is best to do density based on your hair caliber. If you have like 2000-3000 grafts to dense pack, best to avoid it in a one day procedure and pace it in order to maximize chances of more graft survival and yield.
You need someone experienced with incisions and implanting between native hairs, which in my opinion exclude every surgeon in America.
My surgeon explained me also how crucial are the injections of anesthetic in the recipient area between native hairs. An inexperienced technician is likely to cause permanent shock loss with the anesthetic.
But biggest problem would be convincing your surgeon you want a density of 100 grafts/cm2, when he's gonna tell you that you're young, your hair loss is not stabilised etc etc. Good luck with that.
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Konior is certainly high up there. Not many have the money for him though. Recent reports are $13/graph. Definitely my first pick. There does exist some other good U.S surgeons as well.
If you don’t mind traveling then yea, there definitely exists just as good surgeons that are affordable outside the U.S.
However to say there doesn’t exist good U.S surgeons is simply false. They are more conservative with graphs though, which yea it sucks. But beats going to Turkey to have someone recommend 3000 graphs at the age of 25, lol.
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Here’s some Konior results. What I like about his approach is that he keeps it 100% natural and really puts every graph to work. I think the visual appearance for the amount of graphs he uses is what makes him so desirable. His wait list is like 16months long though. Lol. Enough for some people on this forum to go back a couple norwoods.
https://www.chicagohairinstitute.com/photogallery/hair-loss-surgery-6206
I actually agree. I think Korea is highly looked past. I’ve seen some tremendous work out of there. I couldn’t do the whole traveling thing though.
If you consider these excellent results, well, I think you haven't seen many hair transplant from top European surgeons.
And these are even the ones published on the doctor website, so they are his best outcomes. Imagine the others.
Just to name 1:
De Freitas https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxpnGF0ZsXQYKTgkyQ129Ug
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I mean I definitely have. The only Euro surgeon who holds unseen capabilities is Zarev.
The example you shared is right on par with Konior.
Sorry, I don't agree with you.
But even if they were on the same level, 13 $ per graft is a robbery.
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That’s alright. Just because you wouldn’t do it at $13/graph doesn’t mean it’s a robbery though. Don’t get me wrong I wouldn’t either. But...At the end of the day he’s at $13/graph and has a 16month waiting list... clearly people do not feel robbed.
I think people (like yourself) hate on Konior because they fail to look at the results and always have his price tag in the back of their mind when making a judgment. Almost like “that for $13”, you just expect to see something unordinary(like Zarev), it sets high expectations.
You’re link doesn’t work for some reason but yea theres a bad apple everywhere... especially for hair transplants. The surgeons work is only half the battle, the crucial recovery time/care is on the patient. Also hes been in the industry longer than any Euro surgeon you can name.
Wait, I don't hate anyone. I'm not saying he's a bad surgeon, I'm saying you're overpaying for something that doesn't worth that money. He's just average, like all the other top American surgeons, but charging like if you were going to the non plus ultra.
I don't want to sound offensive or make generalisations, but I lived in the US and generally people in the US think that the American medical care quality is the best you can get across the world. Hence why I'm not surprised Konior has that waiting list. The mod of hairloss restoration network once said that only Americans know how to administer properly anesthetics and that pretty much summarizes the mentality.
Europeans are willing to travel more to get the best outcome possible and there were quite a bit of people going to Canada to get FUT with Rahal or H&W. Seeing how much FUE improved in the last 10 years in Europe, that number dramatically dropped, especially because the top price you would get in Europe (apart from the UK, which is the worst for hair transplant along with Italy) was from the Belgian doctors that were charging 6 euro per graft I think. Now it's even cheaper with them, because the Spanish doctors changed the whole game.
The whole point is: if you pay Couto 5 euro per graft, why should you pay 13$ for Konior or 8$ for H&W?
That's the downside of globalization I'm afraid.
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I’m not going to make this long because we pretty much are on the same page the only difference is that its coming from non-unique perspectives. Are you overpaying for Konior, yes. Is Konior charging too much, no. In my opinion, he’s not charging enough.
When referencing the price discrepancy between countries, hair transplants is one of many topics that exhibit this quality. Im not going to get into the economics behind it but other categories that have such price differences: Cars, Clothes, Food. Honestly just about anything.
Also for most of the wealthy, the $5 price difference ($10,000 procedure difference) is not worth the risks and inconvenience.
The risk of getting a better result?
I can understand the long flight as an inconvenience, but I don't see any other reason.
Also the difference between 13$ (Konior) and 5€ (Couto, which is one of the most expensive) is not 5$. Just saying.
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Erm no. There do exists traveling risks that come with transplants abroad. You could hit your head after your procedure while traveling/being on the plane for 8+ hours (more common than you think). If you get on a plane soon after the procedure the pressure difference will cause your head to swell leaving you in an uncomfortable situation.
Some other disadvantages: if you need to revisit the clinic after leaving the country... you’re sh*t out of luck. Direct and indirect communication issues. Environmental differences that make u feel generally uncomfortable.
Like I prefaced in the quote...to average income people it’s worth it. However to someone earning 150k+ a year, the extra 10k doesn’t mean anything but the convenience of recovering from their own home and being able to go to followups with the clinic.
I laughed a lil at this. First of all 5 euros is about 15 cents off from 6 dollars. Secondly, nobody has prices like Konior. Id say the top 5% of U.S surgeons have a price point at about $10-11/graph. From $6 factor in your flight and your basically at $7-8/graph. Boom now my conservative $5 difference just became $2-4. Just saying, of course.
I took a flight the night of my surgery, not even the day after, and did 2 stops before going home. Total traveling time 14 hours.
Are you aware of the existence of drugs to prevent swelling, right? You're supposed to take corticosteroids from the morning of the surgery until 2 days after.
Obviously, it's true you can't visit the clinic again in case of an emergency, but I don't see what kind of problem of communication you should have remotely in 2020. Whatever question I have, I either contact the Doctor assistant or the clinic rep and I get my answer within 2 hours.
Glad I made you laugh, but it seems you were laughing during your math classes as well and didn't learn much.
If you want to make the comparison, you have to take in account the highest price in Europe with the highest in the USA, which is Konior vs Couto/Feriduni (Feriduni is 5 euro if he does the extractions, otherwise the price goes down up to 3 euro). ******** lowered his top package to 4 euro per grafts, so he's even cheaper than them now.
I booked my flight from NYC to Ankara with Turkish Airlines for 1039 $ back and forth (I don't know if you fly in business class with Emirates usually, but that was my price) and paid 3 nights in a 5 star hotel for 123 $ (probably Konior will give you a hug for those money). Let's suppose you're going to Konior with your car and you don't need to take a plane within the US, which is unlikely, but I'll give you that as well.
Let's consider 3000 grafts for each surgeon and let's put 1000$ for the flight in Spain back and forth at that time (which is closer than Turkey):
Konior: 3000 x 13$ = 39000$
Couto: 3000 x 6$ = 18000$ + 1000$ = 19000$
So that's a 20k difference, more than the double. Let's make it the double anyway and let's say with the flight and the hotel you would spend 19500$ to go to Couto in Spain, while not spending an extra dollar to go to Konior and sleeping in your house (which we both know applies to a small percentage of patients, but anyway). That still makes it 50% cheaper, for a difference of 6.5$ per graft.
My greetings to your math teacher.
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Math teacher: which one? If only you knew. Lol. I don’t really care to “flex” over an internet board but Ive co-written 2 research papers at the age of 21. Arithmetic is, well arithmetic. Its only as good as the assumptions you make. Lets point out some gross ones you made.
Once I read this line, I immediately knew you know nothing about paired/difference testing. Im not going to give u a lecture that most kids pay 60k/year for. But christ, please never use numbers to compare anything again, it’s not in your skill set. If you’re more interested you can scroll to page 19 of this link and look at outlier impact on testing for differences.
https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1284567/FULLTEXT01.pdf
So convenient. Why? Lol. Im certainly nowhere near of needing 3000 graphs. Only 1500 max. If we were comparing... perhaps a more “average number” would be of better use. (Dont worry I know this didnt cross your mind).
https://www.bernsteinmedical.com/hair-transplant/basics/graft-numbers/
Im not going to sit here and argue over text about mathematics (arithmetic) with some dude who hasn’t complete the calculus sequence or taken an intro to hypothesis testing course.
Bottom line (and Ive said this in all of my posts you just seem to not want to accept it): is it cheaper to travel: yes. To some (like you) its even a necessity. To others who spend 60k/year for their 8th grader to attend private school even ur $20k difference is not worth the travel.
Go ahead and respond back, I will refrain from doing so.
@pegasus2 apologies for hijacking the thread.
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Usual reaction of someone who has been proven wrong: the urge of showing off his life achievements and how much money he has.
Dude, I couldn't care less of your titles, achievements or how much you make. I'm Mr. No One and I don't have to show off anything to anyone.
Your alleged superiority doesn't add anything to this discussion and actually make your basic math errors even worse.
If you want to believe Bernstein or Konior and end up with a result like the one attached, by all means, go ahead. My hairline wasn't even NWII yet and to get a Norwood 0.5 hairline with a dense pack of 50 grafts/cm2, I needed 1300 grafts. The rest went to the crown reconstruction, and I was labeled as NWIII vertex. Total 2400 grafts.
But, let's say you're estimate is correct and you only need 1500 grafts (which I doubt, otherwise you wouldn't have been here):
Konior: 19500$ (and let's say no expenses on top, which is unreal, as already said)
Couto: 9000$ + 1500$ of expenses (and I'm being generous)
Difference: 9000$, which is 47.2% cheaper than Konior (not the 2-4$ range you mentioned
) and with a better result for sure.I appreciate you got overheated and you're struggling to see the point. What I'm saying is traveling is a necessity to get a better result, not to save money. The very same reason I did it.
In any case, it seems @pegasus2 did his research well and already made his mind of not risking it in the US. It's like buying a Fiat for the price of a Maserati.
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You really didn’t prove anything. I never mentioned how much money I had. Only mentioned my math experience to solidify credibility. However, if you don’t want to believe it... dont. Im not going to sit here and beg you. Told u not to use numbers to compare anything and you did it again... seriously its out your skill set. Did you even click the link on outlier influence on hyp testing? Do you even understand the remote bias’s you made when performing your calculations.Usual reaction of someone who has been proven wrong: the urge of showing off his life achievements and how much money he has.
Dude, I couldn't care less of your titles, achievements or how much you make. I'm Mr. No One and I don't have to show off anything to anyone.
Your alleged superiority doesn't add anything to this discussion and actually make your basic math errors even worse.
If you want to believe Bernstein or Konior and end up with a result like the one attached, by all means, go ahead. My hairline wasn't even NWII yet and to get a Norwood 0.5 hairline with a dense pack of 50 grafts/cm2, I needed 1300 grafts. The rest went to the crown reconstruction, and I was labeled as NWIII vertex. Total 2400 grafts.
But, let's say you're estimate is correct and you only need 1500 grafts (which I doubt, otherwise you wouldn't have been here):
Konior: 19500$ (and let's say no expenses on top, which is unreal, as already said)
Couto: 9000$ + 1500$ of expenses (and I'm being generous)
Difference: 9000$, which is 47.2% cheaper than Konior (not the 2-4$ range you mentioned
I appreciate you got overheated and you're struggling to see the point. What I'm saying is traveling is a necessity to get a better result, not to save money. The very same reason I did it.
In any case, it seems @pegasus2 did his research well and already made his mind of not risking it in the US. It's like buying a Fiat for the price of a Maserati.
Im sure you got a great result from your hair transplant and that’s why you’re still here. If you truely think its a necessity to travel for better results, you’re just plain dumb. The countless of celebrity hair transplant that you’re not even aware about happen in the US. Just because you traveled doesn’t mean everyone has to travel.
“with a better result for sure”... god lmao. Implying P(better hair transplant result in US) = 0. The bias is heavy with this one. More stat help for u: higher bias, higher error. Some more for u: higher variance, higher error.
The thing with Couto and de Freitas is that I haven't seen they prove their skills on slick bald dudes high on the Norwood scale. It's always those "easy" cases of 1,500-3,000 grafts implanted around the hairline of men who have thick hair in most of their scalp, except in the front.
The only case where I saw Couto trying improve the situation of a dude that was balding all over the top of his head is of the user "Granada77" of the spanish forum recuperate el pelo https://foro.recuperarelpelo.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=82358&start=45
And even then it was not a very big of a session, just 4k grafts. And the user stopped posting cold before showing his results, very weird.
So in my opinion while Couto and de Freitas are great surgeons for small sessions, I haven't seen any proof that they are tested in the bigger ones.
The only case where I saw Couto trying improve the situation of a dude that was balding all over the top of his head is of the user "Granada77" of the spanish forum recuperate el pelo https://foro.recuperarelpelo.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=82358&start=45
And even then it was not a very big of a session, just 4k grafts. And the user stopped posting cold before showing his results, very weird.
So in my opinion while Couto and de Freitas are great surgeons for small sessions, I haven't seen any proof that they are tested in the bigger ones.