Mastering dermabrasion

[joemadrid]

I think we need to focus in the dermabrasion process because there are a few things that are not clear, at least for me

See this pics of a tatoo removal.

This will form a eschar for sure, as the text says. Every huge abrasion you do will form a eschar, but in the costarelis patent I have not find anything about a crust and they said "no blood" in some paragraph.

They said that they can remove the hair of a mouse with an abrasion that did not make blood? That is impossible!

But in a Interview he said that you need to go deep... so... how can you go deep and not form dead tissue and do not make blood? That is impossible. If the dermis is visible you will got an eschar, see the pics, this is the dermis. I have perform a small abrasion in my hand, a cosmetic abrasion, pretty light. Mi skin is red, no blood. I also have perform a huge abrasion in my leg, that let the dermis visible. Now I got a crust in my leg, obviously.

I find difficult to believe that you are going to make tons of hair simply turning your skin a bit red.

And about the mice... is impossible to destroy the follicles as they said they do in the patent without forming a eschar, simply impossible.

I got the chemicals and would like to try this month but do not understand the correct abrasion technique I need to use. So the question for me now is deep abrasion or only a superficial cosmetic abrasion that only turns your skin red.

Help would be appreciated.

 

[harold]

I think we need to focus in the dermabrasion process because there are a few things that are not clear, at least for me


This will form a eschar for sure, as the text says. Every huge abrasion you do will form a eschar, but in the costarelis patent I have not find anything about a crust and they said "no blood" in some paragraph.

Didnt look like it caused much scarring to me.

They said that they can remove the hair of a mouse with an abrasion that did not make blood? That is impossible!

No they did not say they can remove the hair by removing the epidermis. They shaved the mice and then removed the epidermis.

But in a Interview he said that you need to go deep... so... how can you go deep and not form dead tissue and do not make blood?

There are no blood vessels in the epidermis. You might see some blood from diffusion, I'm not sure, but if you dont go into the dermis you are not going to get a lot of blood.

That is impossible. If the dermis is visible you will got an eschar, see the pics, this is the dermis. I have perform a small abrasion in my hand, a cosmetic abrasion, pretty light. Mi skin is red, no blood. I also have perform a huge abrasion in my leg, that let the dermis visible. Now I got a crust in my leg, obviously.

I find difficult to believe that you are going to make tons of hair simply turning your skin a bit red.

And about the mice... is impossible to destroy the follicles as they said they do in the patent without forming a eschar, simply impossible.

I got the chemicals and would like to try this month but do not understand the correct abrasion technique I need to use. So the question for me now is deep abrasion or only a superficial cosmetic abrasion that only turns your skin red.

Who can say? Obviously one wants to remove as little as possible. Most of the wounds we are talking about where "full thickness". ie dermis + epidermis is all gone. No more skin. However by dermabrading the epidermis they were able to get the technique to work. So we know that it works at least at that depth (or perhaps shallowness is more accurate). Its uncertain whether or not it works better or worse the deeper you go at this stage. The object seems to be to "induce a state of epithelialization" where in some or all of the epidermis is regenerated. Again how much needs to go and whether the results are better if more goes in not clear right now.

Help would be appreciated.

 

[Matt27]

A real dermabrasion, the kind needed to remove the epidermis, is not very gentle or something an inexperienced person should even attempt. It is much more invasive than a microderm. Often times local and/or general anesthesia is administered for this procedure since it is virtually impossible to remove the epidermis without disrupting the dermis (they don't come together like pancakes, they meet along what you could call a very jagged edge.

Because of this I personally feel 99% of the people here who are trying to replicate the Follica patent are, for the most part, wasting their time. They're either not removing enough skin, or are probably damaging it by removing too much in a very haphazard, inconsistent method. Even if they get the wnt signaling down 100%, I highly doubt the skin will be at that magical state where it can be manipulated to create hair follicles instead of regular skin follicles. A few might get lucky and get a couple of hairs out of it, but that will be about the best they can do.

I have always felt Follica will instruct dermatologists to use a laser to perform the dermabrasion part of the procedure when they finally release it. This will probably be the quickest and most precise way to accomplish what needs to be accomplished here, i.e. highly controlled removal of the epidermis in a specific area. The virtual inventor of the medical/dermatological laser, Dr. Rox Anderson, is one of the Follica co-founders, which is another reason why I suspect they will be going this route.

In fact just reading the Follica bio page gives you a great idea of how it's going to work......1st there's Rox Anderson, the laser genius, then they have Sarah Millar, Wnt signaling genius, followed by Samir Mitragotri who is basically a drug delivery genius, and then of course Cotsarelis himself. To top it off they've got Vera Price to complete the dream team.

http://www.follicabio.com/content/scien ... ory-board/

I'm going to go way out on a limb here and state that if this group of people cannot get this to work, *nobody* can.

 

[PersonGuy]

I need to ask where the hell you got that tattoo? It looks like something a 13 year old would carve into a tree. I'd get it removed too if I had the constant problem of little kids approaching me with crayons trying to color in my coloring book tattoo.

 

[joemadrid]

Ei it is not me, is a Internet pic

 

[PersonGuy]

That's good to know.

 

[harold]

I'm going to go way out on a limb here and state that if this group of people cannot get this to work, *nobody* can.

Very interesting post if somewhat pessimistic no the whole DIY Follica thing. Hopefully the method can be done with a much less invasive abrasion. I am optimistic in that studies have shown changes in gene expression from even very light interference with the skin but at the same time even multiple light treatments cannot compare to one deep treatment it seems. I think a later Follica procedure, Follica Mark 2if you will, will involve unravelling those signals that place the epidermis in that embryonic state where stem cells canbe coaxed to become hair follicles and they may be able to achieve such a state without the need for any actual wounding procedure.
From the Intercytex reports that describedhow a "gentle abrasion" IIRC was able to make a large difference in their results I am confident that the combination of at least some abrasion and minoxidil is probably a surprisinglyeffective combo for the average guy.
Very interesting rundown on the Follica Founders and their respective areas of expertise also.
hh

 

[Matt27]

I'm trying not to be pessimistic, but realistically looking at it, given that we all know how perplexing hair growth is, and knowing that there are literally one hundred ways this procedure can be done wrong and only one way to do it right, the odds are pretty good that to do it right just by crude experimentation would be like finding a needle in a haystack. Not that it can't be done, but I'm placing much more faith in Follica's team and realize that any results our own volunteers here achieve will be, at very best, only a fraction of what Follica will *hopefully* one day be able to produce.

On a side note, I was discussing this whole Follica procedure with a Dermatologist friend of mine and she said, based off of what she knew about how the industry works and how the most money is made, Follica might be looking to sell the kit along with a special laser to dermatology clinics, which would up the price tag (to the dermatology clinics that is) considerably. A possible package might include the laser, training, x number of kits (containing the secret potion) a year and the rights to perform the procedure for anywhere from $100k to $500k. This way Follica would never even have to deal directly with individual people and could concentrate on selling thousands of their lasers and kits to dermatology clinics around the globe. The profits from this approach would be astronomical, around $1B after only a few years. And the derm clinics could then charge whatever they deem a good price based off of their costs and supply and demand for the procedure, etc. Again this is only if they do indeed plan to sell a special or new laser specifically for this procedure. I guess this is a popular route to go these days, selling expensive lasers or other lab equipment for unique techniques, which this definitely qualifies for.

 

[harold]

I'm trying not to be pessimistic, but realistically looking at it, given that we all know how perplexing hair growth is, and knowing that there are literally one hundred ways this procedure can be done wrong and only one way to do it right, the odds are pretty good that to do it right just by crude experimentation would be like finding a needle in a haystack.

Well I think its unlikely that anyone is going to hit a bullseye and get the maximum possible growth on their own but I think its possible/probable to get some results from doing something similar to their basic proposal. After all wounding in animals has been shown to promote the hair growth of existing hair surrounding the wound and not only develop new hair follicles. That in itself is kinda exciting and makes some relatively light abrasion worthwhile IMO.
More than the drugs even I think the limiting factor is how deep do you have to go to get success? Is their a critical depth/layer or will you get better results by going deeper? All we know is that to the dermis is enough to get something. Having a bit of areality check as to what that is like in the real world I can only hope that less invasive work at least is worth something.

Not that it can't be done, but I'm placing much more faith in Follica's team and realize that any results our own volunteers here achieve will be, at very best, only a fraction of what Follica will *hopefully* one day be able to produce.

Agreed. At leat I very much hope that they can find a truly impressive protocol.

On a side note, I was discussing this whole Follica procedure with a Dermatologist friend of mine and she said, based off of what she knew about how the industry works and how the most money is made, Follica might be looking to sell the kit along with a special laser to dermatology clinics, which would up the price tag (to the dermatology clinics that is) considerably. A possible package might include the laser, training, x number of kits (containing the secret potion) a year and the rights to perform the procedure for anywhere from $100k to $500k. This way Follica would never even have to deal directly with individual people and could concentrate on selling thousands of their lasers and kits to dermatology clinics around the globe.

From the way the last patent was worded and the views of others I had assumed that Follica wouuld be something that was licensed to derms rather than ordinary folk. This talk of a special laser is new though. I could see how that would up the cost dramatically.

The profits from this approach would be astronomical, around $1B after only a few years. And the derm clinics could then charge whatever they deem a good price based off of their costs and supply and demand for the procedure, etc. Again this is only if they do indeed plan to sell a special or new laser specifically for this procedure. I guess this is a popular route to go these days, selling expensive lasers or other lab equipment for unique techniques, which this definitely qualifies for.

Yeah I guess if you can force people's hands in such a way then any business is gonna include the purchase of an expensive "essential" piece of hardware as a mandatory part of getting the rights to perform their amazing new procedure.
hh

 

[Orin]

I got some results with variations of dermabrasion. In fact, my best results came from a very light dermabrasion that created a light crust that fell off after 3 days or so. In a week it was completly healed, whereas the first dermabrasion took almost 2 months to completly fade.

The difference between the two instances, was not that doing very light dermabrasion is more effective than doing deep dermabrasion, but that in the lighter instance I plucked the hair in the area a day or two before dermabrasion.

It seems this is a procedure that is a combination of a few key elements. When they're all present, you will most likely get some results - if not necessarily perfect from the get-go.

I also think your reasoning that there are hundreds of ways to do this wrong, and only one way to do it right is also flawed. If anything it's the opposite. Despite a wide range of variations of the procedure from both the patent and DIY:ers, most of them seem to produce "some" results.

So If anything getting proof of concept results is very easy to do. It's improving the technique and the results that's the tricky part - which is the phase we're currently in.

In my opinion, depth of dermabrasion is the smallest of concerns right now, and having to dermabrade down to blood-level should not be needed.

 

[chancer]

http://www.alida.co.uk/SilkyMit.asp

No i did not buy these.... i stole them off my sister....

But so far the best tool i have seen for abrading skin...

My sister uses these instead of shaving or waxing her legs. It is in effect a very, very light sandpaper that is designed for women to rub up and down their legs to remove any hair, I must say it works smoother than a razor!!!

So i thought i'd test my Elbow, rubbed it light with no effect, and then went more vigorously and hard with the pad, not much effect apart from the white powder-residue left over from stripped away skin. But the elbow skin must be more tougher than your scalp.... So i gave it 20 strokes on the soft skin behind my ear, then i did a 20 strokes 1 inch from my hairline, where hair used to be and in one temple area also. didnt see any change in colour of skin, but now 15 mins after execution im feeling a slight tingle, like sunburn in those areas.
and i will check in a few hours to see if the skin as changed colour in those areas or not.

Im not going with the full follica procedure yet, i just want to try and get more competent in abrading a little first. But i think these pads are the way to go, if my "20" strokes wasnt enough, next attempt will be "40".... and so on till i can ascertain the satisfactory level of abrasion we desire.

you can buy these pads in the high street, or get your GF to... if not im sure they'll be on ebay very, very cheaply!

i will report back with more....

 

[Matt27]

When I say hundreds of ways to do it wrong, I am considering anything that yields less than say 50 hairs per cm^2 (at a bare minimum) "wrong." Even that would look a bit thin, but maybe by doing it over and over in the same area you could build density over time. Anything that yields hair is a step in the right direction, however, so I applaud all of you guys who are out there trying different things and combinations to get *some* results, even if they are far less than 50 hairs per cm^2.

 

[chancer]

well its the day after my first test drive abrading...

my 20 strokes with the Silkymat brough a slightly pink mark in my scalp that is still visable today, no pain at all, running my fingers over the area; it feels slighty more smother the the rest of the un-abraded skin in that area.

im sure i havent abraded deep anough on this occasion and i will try 30 or 40 strokes on my next test run.... updates to follow.

 

[mj9]

I got the chemicals and would like to try this month but do not understand the correct abrasion technique I need to use.

so what are the chemicals?!

 

[Armando Jose]

I think we need to focus in the dermabrasion process because there are a few things that are not clear, at least for me

See this pics of a tatoo removal.

This will form a eschar for sure, as the text says. Every huge abrasion you do will form a eschar, but in the costarelis patent I have not find anything about a crust and they said "no blood" in some paragraph.

They said that they can remove the hair of a mouse with an abrasion that did not make blood? That is impossible!

But in a Interview he said that you need to go deep... so... how can you go deep and not form dead tissue and do not make blood? That is impossible. If the dermis is visible you will got an eschar, see the pics, this is the dermis. I have perform a small abrasion in my hand, a cosmetic abrasion, pretty light. Mi skin is red, no blood. I also have perform a huge abrasion in my leg, that let the dermis visible. Now I got a crust in my leg, obviously.

I find difficult to believe that you are going to make tons of hair simply turning your skin a bit red.

And about the mice... is impossible to destroy the follicles as they said they do in the patent without forming a eschar, simply impossible.

I got the chemicals and would like to try this month but do not understand the correct abrasion technique I need to use. So the question for me now is deep abrasion or only a superficial cosmetic abrasion that only turns your skin red.

Help would be appreciated.

Hola Joe;

Telogen Effluvium indico mi opinión en castellano porque se que me entenderas y me haré entender muchio mas facil. La explicación del porque en ciertas heridas y en otras no sale sangre depende del tipo de piel.

hace años estuve trabajando en una empresa de curtición y teñido de pieles y es muy conocido la diferencia entre la piel del cerdo y el resto de pieles, cabra, vacuno, caballo etc. La piel del cerdo es la mas parecida a la del ser humano (Por que será?), y a nivel practico se observa que en la del cerdo, el serraje, es decir la parte de abajo de la "flor" esta agujereada por el pelo. En todo el resto de pieles, parece que el pelo este solamente anclado en la superficie de la piel y no atraviese las distintas capas de la piel. ¿Sabes lo que Telogen Effluvium quiero explicar? En pocas palabras que la piel de los ratones, no es igual a la del humano, pues este últyimo junto al cerdo es la que tiene el pelo atravesandose toda la capa dermica. Una muestra de ello es que lo que se denomina serraje esta agujereado literlamente por el pelo por lo que se puede explicar que si necesitas hacer una herida para "arrancar" el pelo lo mas probable es que Telogen Effluvium salga sangre, cosa que tal vez no ocurra con los ratones.

Si puedes traducirlo al ingles Telogen Effluvium lo agradecere, ahora no tengo mucho tiempo.
Un saludo desde la costa mediterranea.

Armando