ketoconazale question for HairLossTalk.com..............

michael barry

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There are ketoconazale creams available that are supposed to be used daily for up to six weeks dealing with specific dandruffs' etc.


Why is it that they cannot simply be used daily for hairloss instead of spironolactone? Im sure there is a simple answer for this, but it eludes me.
 

vq0

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i remember reading somewhere that ketoconazole is like powerful and has bad side effects. The shampoo only leaves it on the hair for a short time and so it doesn't get absorbed as much as with a cream. Maybe thats it.
 

Bertie

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The shampoo only leaves it on the hair for a short time and so it doesn't get absorbed as much as with a cream. Maybe thats it.

According to the maker of Nizoral, the ketoconazole actually stays in the skin a long time:

* Following a single application of ketoconazole shampoo, ketoconazole persists at therapeutic concentrations for 7 days in the epidermal layers. In addition, substantial pityrosporal inhibitory doses of ketoconazole were detected on the hair for several days after use of the shampoo, the mean level at 72 h was 11.6 µ mg.

Reference: Pierard GE, Arrese JE, Pierard-Franchimont C, et al: Prolonged effects of antidandruff shampoos-time to recurrence of Malassezia ovalis colonization of skin. International Journal of Cosmetic Science. 1997;19:111-117.

(From footnote at http://www.nizoral.com/story/index.jhtml)

But yeah, I don't know why we don't use the creams. Part of the attraction of Nizoral is that it occupies an otherwise vacant shower-time "slot" where one might use a topical product, whereas the cream would have to fit in someplace else, maybe?
 

sphlanx2006

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I was ready to post the exact same question. I am really interested to find out why topical keto is not used for hairloss.
 

HARM1

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BESIDES HAVING A WEAK ANTI ANROGENIC AFFECT, IT DOES NOTHING FOR YOUR male pattern baldness. SO YOUR BETTER OFF USING spironolactone.
 

vq0

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if the shampoo stays in your scalp for a week, I wonder how long a cream would stay.
 

sphlanx2006

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HARM1 said:
BESIDES HAVING A WEAK ANTI ANROGENIC AFFECT, IT DOES NOTHING FOR YOUR male pattern baldness. SO YOUR BETTER OFF USING spironolactone.

From what i ve read keto is one of the most potent anti-androgens out there.
 

HARM1

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sphlanx2006 said:
HARM1 said:
BESIDES HAVING A WEAK ANTI ANROGENIC AFFECT, IT DOES NOTHING FOR YOUR male pattern baldness. SO YOUR BETTER OFF USING spironolactone.

From what i ve read keto is one of the most potent anti-androgens out there.
What have you been reading my friend? That's not true. Back it up with a source ...
 

Fat-Elvis

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HARM1 said:
BESIDES HAVING A WEAK ANTI ANROGENIC AFFECT, IT DOES NOTHING FOR YOUR male pattern baldness. SO YOUR BETTER OFF USING spironolactone.
ketoconazale has been shown to be effective, crapforbrains.
 

michael barry

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Harm,

I have found an article at hairlosshelp that states that 1% Nizoral had effects at six months comprable to 2% minoixidil. It reduced sebum secretions and increased hair-shaft diameter. The impressive thing to me about this is that 2% minoxidil at six months has a better response than finasteride at six months.

Plainly put, the men who used Nizoral 2-4 times a week might be getting even more anti-androgenic activity up there than what finasteride would provide. So combining the two together...........................should really be a very effective anti-androgenic regimine in itself.


Here is the verbiage of the article:

Nizoral 1% Study Shows Benefits for Androgenetic Alopecia

March 04, 2001 - American Academy of Dermatology Meeting - Washington DC - Scientists working for McNeil, makers of Nizoral anti-dandruff shampoo, presented the findings of a study done on 1% Nizoral shampoo which has good news for hair loss sufferers. It has long been known that 2% prescription Nizoral has beneficial effects on Androgenic Alopecia (male pattern baldness). It however has been unclear whether the same benefits can be obtained by using the non-prescription 1% version.
In the study presented (see below), one hundred male volunteers with mild to moderate dandruff and somewhat oily scalp, were using, in a double-blind fashion, either a 1% Nizoral shampoo or a 1% zinc pyrithione shampoo, 2-3 times a week for 6 months.

Analysis of the different parameters set up in the study shows that the hair diameter gradually increased with Nizoral use (+8.46%) over a 6 month period, whereas the diameter showed a trend to decrease with zinc pyrithione use over the same period (-2.28%). The sebum excretion rate was reduced with Nizoral (-6.54%) while it increased with zinc pyrithione (+8.2%) over the same period of time. The number of hair shed over a 24-hour period was reduced by 16.46% with Nizoral and 6.02% with zinc pyrithione after 6 months. Finally, the percentage hairs in anagen phase increased by 6.4% and 8.4% respectively during the study time.

The results are similar to a previous study done on 2% prescription strength Nizoral where it was shown that use of 2% Nizoral yielded a 7% average increase in hair shaft diameter similar to what was achieved by the control group using 2% Minoxidil and a non-medicated shampoo.

So for any hair loss sufferer, this research clearly indicates that using 1% or 2% Nizoral 2-3 times per week, will have positive effects on hair growth as well as controlling dandruff. It is still unclear at this time whether it's the anti-fungal properties or the anti-androgenic properties of Ketokonazole (active ingredient in Nizoral) thats responsible for the hair thickening effects, however because of the decrease in sebum rates as well, it is the authors opinion that the results are due to the anti-androgenic properties of Ketokonazole.




Nizoral 1% Study
The effects of chronic use of 1% ketoconazole or a 1% zinc pyrithione shampoo on the general health of hair and scalp.

G. Piérard 1and G. Cauwenbergh2
1. Dept Dermatopathology, University of Liège, Belgium; 2. Skin research Center, Johnson &Johnson , Skillman, N.J., USA

Hundred male volunteers with mild to moderate dandruff and somewhat oily scalp, have used, in a double-blind fashion, a 1% ketoconazole shampoo or a 1% zinc pyrithione shampoo. The test shampoos were applied 2 to 3 times weekly for a total period of 6 months. Several parameters that affect the general health of hair and scalp were assessed at start, and after 1, 3 and 6 months. These parameters included the percent of hairs in anagen phase, the diameter of the hairs, sebum excretion rate at the hairline, and the number of hairs shed in the 24-hour period prior to each assessment. At the end of the study, the participants were asked to complete a questionnaire regarding the cosmetic acceptability of the test shampoos.

Forty-four ketoconazole users and forty-three zinc pyrithione users completed the 6 month study period. Analysis of the different parameters shows that the hair diameter gradually increases with chronic ketoconazole use (+8.46%) over a 6 month period, whereas the diameter shows a trend to decrease with zinc pyrithione use over the same period (-2.28%). The sebum excretion rate is reduced with ketoconazole (-6.54%) while it increases with zinc pyrithione (+8.2%) over the same period of time. The number of hair shed over a 24-hour period is reduced by 16.46% with ketoconazole and 6.02% with zinc pyrithione after 6 months. Finally, the percentage hairs in anagen phase increased by 6.4% and 8.4% respectively during the study time. Except for the percentage of hairs in anagen, which showed no difference between the two groups, all other parameters were significantly different in favor of the ketoconazole shampoo.

Both shampoos have been shown to be good anti-dandruff ingredients. Assessment of parameters than can affect the health of hair and scalp, suggests that both ingredients show distinct differences in the way they affect the scalp; indicating that ketoconazole increases hair diameter and reduces scalp oil, whereas zinc pyrithione seems to yield opposite effects. This suggests that, besides their effect on the lipophilic yeast Malassezia spp, ketoconazole and zinc pyrithione act though quite different mechanisms. An overall analysis of hair diameter changes as a function of changes in sebum excretion rate suggests that a reduction in scalp oiliness seems to result in an increased hair diameter. This suggests that, in people with oily hair, regular use of ketoconazole shampoo may result in overall hair fullness.





Harm,

This still brings me back to my original query in the thread however..........................since ketoconazale is obviously an effective anti-androgen, and its effects apparently last for longer than spironolactone's as Bertie so well pointed out, why then aren't Doctors prescribing keto-creams for baldness?


It would seem to me, that a young guy just starting to lose his hair, might be able to hang onto is with ketoconazale alone just as he might by using spironolactone unless there was some very negative side effect that Im unaware of. I know nizoral shampoo tends to make the scalp dry, but a cream might not do that.

For now......................Im definitely going to be using nizoral 1% three days a week.
 

michael barry

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Docj077 had this to say about ketoconazale//////////////////

"Agreed. Might as well just take oral ketoconazole if we're going to play such physiology games. At leat that blocks androgen synthesis everywhere including the adrenal glands. Taking it is more potent than an orchiectomy when it comes to the removal of total androgens from the body"



I wish I'd had known this stuff a few years ago. I, like Harm, was under the impression that ketoconazale was just a weak anti-androgen and only helped a tad in baldness...............It looks like if one caught it at the early stages that it might really help a young fella hold onto what he had for a good while before needing stronger things.
 

The Gardener

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That's what I've been trying to express to newbies for years.

When some of these newbies with only light recession comes on board, I've been telling them to pick up some Nizoral and wait to see if the recession continues, or if it was just a single "event" and the hairline stabilizes afterwards.
 

sphlanx2006

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So, after all, does anybody know if a topical keto cream could be beneficial for hair loss and why it is not used till now?
 

HARM1

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michael barry said:
Harm,

This still brings me back to my original query in the thread however..........................since ketoconazale is obviously an effective anti-androgen, and its effects apparently last for longer than spironolactone's as Bertie so well pointed out, why then aren't Doctors prescribing keto-creams for baldness?


It would seem to me, that a young guy just starting to lose his hair, might be able to hang onto is with ketoconazale alone just as he might by using spironolactone unless there was some very negative side effect that Im unaware of. I know nizoral shampoo tends to make the scalp dry, but a cream might not do that.

For now......................Im definitely going to be using nizoral 1% three days a week.

Hi there,
truth be told I once saw a post of yours in which you refered to the future, stating something like" in the future it is possible that men will only have to use a weak anti androgen such as keto."You said that refering to HM in the future.I was sure that if you said it, 'it was based on some strong evidence. I use nizoral alot, and yes the hair might be dry, but nothing else. Nizoral states that the reason for just using it 3 times a week is that it does indeed stay around in the scalp and keeps on killing p. ovales. So if what your intersted in is just the anti anrogenic affect, I don't see any problem in even daily ussage.

What it truly interesing in this article is this claim" An overall analysis of hair diameter changes as a function of changes in sebum excretion rate suggests that a reduction in scalp oiliness seems to result in an increased hair diameter."
One must ask how does the sebum affect hair diamter? A few optioins :
1) It does not! The diamter got bigger only because of the anti androgenic affect of keto. And sebum also went down for the same reason, But the reduction in sebum had nothing to do with the bigger diameter.
2) Keto lowered sebum in the scalp, and the lowered sebum inlarged the hair diameter! Why? how could sebum affect the diameter of hair? Good and very interesting question! there are many options! One I like, but is probably not true, and you even gave me once an article that put my idea to rest, is the notion that the immune response that p. pvale organizems bring up in many people, some how gets the to fallicles as well.
 

michael barry

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Harm,
Sebaceous glands are androgenically stimulated by both DHT and T (and probably other male hormones too). So if you have something that inhibits androgen synthesis and/or somewhat interferes with androgen receptors, its gonna slow sebaceous gland output by removing stimulation . We KNOW that MK386, a type one alpha five reductase inhibitor as well as green tea leads to lower sebum secretions because they both stop type 1 alpha five reductase enzymes, located in the sebaceous glands and the sebocytes, from being active.

But the fact that not only sebaceous output, but even the size of the sebaceous glands were effected, would lead me to believe that even testosterone uptake must have been inhibited somewhat or some recptor blockage must have taken place. As Doctor pointed out, Ketoconazale must be a strong anti-androgen.

Which is kinda funny because as long as Ive been lookin' into hair, Ive kinda glaced over nizoral thinking "surely no shampoo could help all that much". I'd imagine nizoral helps quite a bit.


Ive said it before, and I'll say it again.. You young guys (like you Harm) are so lucky to have Hairlosstalk and all the info thats out there. Im a NW3 with very good thickness. You can see where I "caught" my baldness and halted it. If only I had a resoursce like HairLossTalk.com when I was 20. I honestly think Id still be a NW1 or 1.5 at the most If I'd had the big 3 and the knowledge to actually use it.
Good luck on your regimine Harm. I can tell youre inquisitive and will have success on keeping your hair.
 

HARM1

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michael barry said:
Harm,
Sebaceous glands are androgenically stimulated by both DHT and T (and probably other male hormones too). So if you have something that inhibits androgen synthesis and/or somewhat interferes with androgen receptors, its gonna slow sebaceous gland output by removing stimulation . We KNOW that MK386, a type one alpha five reductase inhibitor as well as green tea leads to lower sebum secretions because they both stop type 1 alpha five reductase enzymes, located in the sebaceous glands and the sebocytes, from being active.

But the fact that not only sebaceous output, but even the size of the sebaceous glands were effected, would lead me to believe that even testosterone uptake must have been inhibited somewhat or some recptor blockage must have taken place. As Doctor pointed out, Ketoconazale must be a strong anti-androgen.

Which is kinda funny because as long as Ive been lookin' into hair, Ive kinda glaced over nizoral thinking "surely no shampoo could help all that much". I'd imagine nizoral helps quite a bit.


Ive said it before, and I'll say it again.. You young guys (like you Harm) are so lucky to have Hairlosstalk and all the info thats out there. Im a NW3 with very good thickness. You can see where I "caught" my baldness and halted it. If only I had a resoursce like HairLossTalk.com when I was 20. I honestly think Id still be a NW1 or 1.5 at the most If I'd had the big 3 and the knowledge to actually use it.
Good luck on your regimine Harm. I can tell youre inquisitive and will have success on keeping your hair.
Thanks, we'll see how good I'll do:)
What I was talkin about is the suggestion of the article you brought that the sebum absence is what helped to inlarge hair diameter.
 

HARM1

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so BENJI what did we decied in the end? keto, over time is stronger ten finasteride and min ? should we go out and get keto cream?
 

michael barry

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Im washing one wrist in Nizoral every third day in the shower, and waiting 2 minutes before rinsing it (same day I use the shampoo). I want to see how it affects hair growth there at three months. If it really reduces it.......I would feel awfully good about it.

I wish there had been more tests on ketoconazale shampoos.


Harm, thats whats frustrating about researching hair....................the lack of tests. Im sure Bryan would tell you that. If pubmed could be given 10 volunteers and 10 controls to test the top 20 baldness indications over a 2 year period in a professionally controlled manner, we'd know a hell of alot more than we do now.

Things I'd like to see tested formally.............prox-n, folligen, tricomin (beyond the one phase two study that was done), very high quality saw palmetto extract at about 400 mgs a day, oral and topical beta sitosterol solutions, ketoconazale, spironolactone formally on the human head, apple-poly's product, caffeine topically, fluridil, topical green tea, topical hops, topical thyme, topical curcumin

Now that I think of it..................an entire internal regimine consisting of internal green tea, internal cucumin, internal silica, internal grape seed extract, with high amounts of MSM and vitamin C just to see what nutrition alone can do.

But probably none of the above is ever going to happen.
 
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