How often do you need to apply spironolactone?

[Hoppi]

I've been using it nightly and washing it off in the morning, but I was wondering how long it remains around the follicles for? People seem to use RU in a similar fashion to this, but I don't know how spironolactone may differ in terms of lifespan in the scalp.

Thanks

Hoppi! ^_^

 

[BornIn89]

I too would like to know this! I put it on in the morning and wash it off in an evening though, couldn't stand having stuff on my head when I'm in bed.

 

[Rabid]

I too would like to know. Everyone says once or twice a day. From what data is this number derived? Where are the scientific studies on this stuff? I've personally been increasing my frequency and am at 5-6 small applications per day. Every site says the same thing, that it's metabolized very quickly. That being the case, 1 or 2x or even 5X day topical spironolactone will be completely useless in its goal. If DHT is attacking the follicle 24/7, a few minutes of spironolactone will be completely inconsequential, since it just blocks the receptor and does nothing to destroy DHT. That's not to say that spironolactone may not work for some, only that it will be working by being absorbed systemically.

 

[Bryan]

That's not to say that spironolactone may not work for some, only that it will be working by being absorbed systemically.

Really? How do you explain the animal experiments in which topical spironolactone was applied only once a day, and had only a strictly local effect where it was physically applied?

 

[Hoppi]

It all depends how long it clings to the androgen receptors doesn't it?

 

[Rabid]

That's not to say that spironolactone may not work for some, only that it will be working by being absorbed systemically.

Really? How do you explain the animal experiments in which topical spironolactone was applied only once a day, and had only a strictly local effect where it was physically applied?

Of course it will have local effects. Even on those who continue losing. By "working" (systemically), I mean actually maintaining hair -- on a human. Unfortunately, the local effects of spironolactone are too short-lived in the scalp to affect hair loss. Maybe acne, not hair loss. In fact, show me a really good study that demonstrates topical spironolactone increases hair growth, animal or human.

It all depends how long it clings to the androgen receptors doesn't it?

My fear is that it it binds once briefly, at which point it's either metabolized (most of it) or absorbed systemically (very small for the majority). Either way, not sticking around and blocking androgens for any significant amount of time.

 

[Bryan]

Really? How do you explain the animal experiments in which topical spironolactone was applied only once a day, and had only a strictly local effect where it was physically applied?

Of course it will have local effects. Even on those who continue losing. By "working" (systemically), I mean actually maintaining hair -- on a human. Unfortunately, the local effects of spironolactone are too short-lived in the scalp to affect hair loss.

I'm not sure what your point is, and I'm not sure why you haven't answered the question I asked you. I think it's pretty well-known that laboratory animals (rodents like hamsters, rats, and mice) in general absorb systemically drugs and chemicals that are applied topically to their skin better than humans do, and yet those studies which applied topical spironolactone to those animals still showed a purely local effect where the drug was applied! Along with the other human study in which topical spironolactone was applied safely to fully HALF the total body surface area in human volunteers, that would appear to completely negate the idea you proposed earlier that topical spironolactone works through systemic absorption. It also implies that a once-per-day application _might_ be sufficient, since that's what was typically used on the animals. In fact, the spironolactone was typically applied to the animals only 5 days a week, and excluded weekends altogether! :shock:

Maybe acne, not hair loss. In fact, show me a really good study that demonstrates topical spironolactone increases hair growth, animal or human.

The specific effect that topical spironolactone has on hair depends on what KIND of hair you apply it to. There have been a few limited studies claiming a beneficial effect on human scalp hair; the widely cited Italian study, for example. Another study on the effect of topical spironolactone on hamsters showed a suppression of their body fur, which would be the expected effect.

 

[Rabid]

I'm not sure what your point is, and I'm not sure why you haven't answered the question I asked you.

My point was that not all local effects would necessarily translate into hair effects, but now I understand that you were referring directly to its ultimate effect on hair, not some intermediate pathway. And I can't answer your question, but can anyone? If the mechanism is known, please post, as that would clear up a lot of confusion.

You're citing the study that showed the suppression of rodent fur. If I understand correctly, you're saying that since the rate of absorption in these animals is faster than in humans, the fact that it works locally for them means it would definitely work locally for us. So, it should strongly suppress fur on the human body as well. In that case the people in the study you mentioned that had half their bodies coated in topical spironolactone would have lost all the body hair on that side, right??

It also implies that a once-per-day application _might_ be sufficient, since that's what was typically used on the animals. In fact, the spironolactone was typically applied to the animals only 5 days a week, and excluded weekends altogether! :shock:

So are you saying I'm overdoing it with my 8 x day regimen? Since more often than not people don't see too much success with twice a day applications, doesn't it make sense to start increasing?

 

[Bryan]

I'm not sure what your point is, and I'm not sure why you haven't answered the question I asked you.

My point was that not all local effects would necessarily translate into hair effects, but now I understand that you were referring directly to its ultimate effect on hair, not some intermediate pathway. And I can't answer your question, but can anyone?

The point of what I said to you was to prove that TOPICAL spironolactone DOES INDEED HAVE "LOCAL" EFFECTS!

If the mechanism is known, please post, as that would clear up a lot of confusion.

The mechanism is that spironolactone acts as an antiandrogen. You must be new here!

You're citing the study that showed the suppression of rodent fur. If I understand correctly, you're saying that since the rate of absorption in these animals is faster than in humans, the fact that it works locally for them means it would definitely work locally for us. So, it should strongly suppress fur on the human body as well.

The word "strongly" is the key part of what you just said. Antiandrogens (including spironolactone) would definitely suppress body hair to some degree, but not strongly. It might take some serious scientific instruments used by doctors/scientists to be able to measure a suppression of body hair by topical spironolactone, at least over a reasonable period of time.

So are you saying I'm overdoing it with my 8 x day regimen? Since more often than not people don't see too much success with twice a day applications, doesn't it make sense to start increasing?

You're using topical spironolactone 8x a day?? Are you serious? I don't think you're getting much extra by doing that. Just go to a more typical once- or twice-daily regimen.

 

[Rabid]

The mechanism is that spironolactone acts as an antiandrogen. You must be new here!

:bravo: What!? Fail! I was talking about the mechanism by which such a short period of exposure of completely reversible androgen receptor blockade by spironolactone prior to its quick absorption can somehow stave off the 24/7 presence of androgens? This was put forth in my first post, and you still haven't answered the question of how that is possible? I think knowing this would help answer the original question this thread is based on, as well as help me understand why putting numerous light applications on throughout the day would not add much more benefit! In other words, it would be helpful to have at least a basic scientific explanation to go along with the results the study claimed.

Are you really convinced from that one animal study that the application regimen used there is fully adequate in humans? Especially since..

Antiandrogens (including spironolactone) would definitely suppress body hair to some degree, but not strongly. It might take some serious scientific instruments used by doctors/scientists to be able to measure a suppression of body hair by topical spironolactone, at least over a reasonable period of time.

Why should it be expected to be any stronger on scalp hair? Perhaps for unknown reasons, it happens to be more successful in rodents. From many anecdotal experiences on this site, it doesn't seem to be very strong. I propose this might be because more than 2 application is required which is why I'm trying multiple applications per day. Do you think this would backfire on me?

 

[Bryan]

:bravo: What!? Fail! I was talking about the mechanism by which such a short period of exposure of completely reversible androgen receptor blockade by spironolactone prior to its quick absorption can somehow stave off the 24/7 presence of androgens? This was put forth in my first post, and you still haven't answered the question of how that is possible? I think knowing this would help answer the original question this thread is based on, as well as help me understand why putting numerous light applications on throughout the day would not add much more benefit! In other words, it would be helpful to have at least a basic scientific explanation to go along with the results the study claimed.

You're mixing different issues together, which is why I didn't understand your question before. Evidently spironolactone blocks androgen receptors for longer (a lot longer?) than you think, which would explain the measurable results in those animal experiments which used spironolactone applications only once a day.

Are you really convinced from that one animal study that the application regimen used there is fully adequate in humans? Especially since..

There are at least three or four animal experiments with topical spironolactone, not just one, and they all show a positive effect. However, I'm not recommending the use of topical spironolactone by humans ONLY because of those animal experiments; I'm also basing it on the results of actual trials with humans, and the experience that such people as Dr. Proctor and others have had with it.

Antiandrogens (including spironolactone) would definitely suppress body hair to some degree, but not strongly. It might take some serious scientific instruments used by doctors/scientists to be able to measure a suppression of body hair by topical spironolactone, at least over a reasonable period of time.

Why should it be expected to be any stronger on scalp hair?

It wouldn't. I never said otherwise! But the point here is that to suppress androgenetic alopecia, you don't need to fully suppress every last bit of androgenic stimulus in the hair follicle. We're very fortunate for that.

Perhaps for unknown reasons, it happens to be more successful in rodents. From many anecdotal experiences on this site, it doesn't seem to be very strong. I propose this might be because more than 2 application is required which is why I'm trying multiple applications per day. Do you think this would backfire on me?

I'm not sure if it's more effective in rodents, because those studies were measuring different things than just hair/fur (specifically, the effect on sebaceous glands). I imagine that the effect on hair in rodents is probably similar to the effect on hair in humans, but I'm not absolutely sure of that.

I agree that topical spironolactone is NOT a particularly strong antiandrogen, and I've complained about that a number of times in the past. It certainly isn't as strong or potent as (say) topical RU58841, although it's certainly a lot cheaper and easier to obtain than RU58841! Sometimes you have to go with what's available to you.

 

[Rabid]

By the way, I'm being absolutely serious about my unconventional use of topical spironolactone. Is this dangerous for hair or health? I would ask why this wouldn't be more effective, but you seem reasonably sure that it would not. Have there been any studies to show that extra applications provide no added benefit? Couldn't this be why it's not having as strong an effect as we would like? After all, oral spironolactone is considered to be a very strong anti-androgen.

 

[Bryan]

By the way, I'm being absolutely serious about my unconventional use of topical spironolactone. Is this dangerous for hair or health?

Considering the experiment I mentioned earlier in this thread in which topical spironolactone was applied to fully HALF the total body surface area of human volunteers for a period of time, I would tend to think that it's not particularly dangerous to do what you're doing.

I would ask why this wouldn't be more effective, but you seem reasonably sure that it would not. Have there been any studies to show that extra applications provide no added benefit?

I don't know of any study in which they tested and compared the effects of multiple applications per day, but there _was_ an animal study which tested different concentrations of the drug in a standard vehicle; I thought it was quite interesting that it appeared to have a maximum effect at the next-to-largest concentration of spironolactone, not the largest, which seemed to show that the antiandrogenic effect was dose-dependent only up to a certain point, after which time it seemed to stabilize or even decline! :shock: Furthermore, that maximum effect of the topical spironolactone was LESS than what other studies with animals have found in similar experiments with topical RU58841. That's why I feel that topical spironolactone is probably never going to be as effective as topical RU58841, regardless of how big a dose you use, or how much you apply to your skin/scalp.

Couldn't this be why it's not having as strong an effect as we would like? After all, oral spironolactone is considered to be a very strong anti-androgen.

I'm not sure just how strong an antiandrogen oral spironolactone is considered to be, at least at the normally approved doses. I'm sure it's not as strong as flutamide or casodex, which are normally used as antiandrogens in the treatment of prostate cancer.

 

[MrBastard]

Any words on how quick after you applyed it is safe to shower without losing any or little effect?