Homogenized propecia pills?

[twenties]

Hello!
I'm gonna start Propecia with a dose as lower as 0.25mg, to try to reduce side effects.
First I'm wondering how to cut a Propecia pill into quarters.
And secondly, and most important, my doctor told me these pills may not be homogenized, meaning that when I cut it, some pieces may have finasteride and others not.

What do u think about this?

 

[Cassin]

And secondly, and most important, my doctor told me these pills may not be homogenized, meaning that when I cut it, some pieces may have finasteride and others not.

how? Its not like little chunks of finasteride are floating around like cottage cheese.

 

[twenties]

could the cottage cheese be there just to make volume?
or the pill weights exactly 1mg? (same as its the finasteride content)

 

[Cassin]

Since these pills are not made 1 at a time...if this truly was a problem wouldn't it be rational to think there could be entire pills missing finasteride and then some with too much?

 

[Avery]

Eh, it's highly doubtful that some pieces have 0 finasteride unless you're cutting insanely small doses, but I have heard of some pills where the medicine is not distributed evenly throughout the pill. However, I think I read something that said this isn't the case with finasteride.

 

[Jake_89]

Can anyone confirm this I have been on .25 for about 3 weeks now..

 

[medmax84]

Ah yes, your Doctor falls into the trap of misidentifying the pharmacokinetics and therapeutic mechanism of a 5AR inhibitor. If finasteride acted directly on and bound DHT in the body, and DHT was produced quickly in response, it would be VERY important to dose consistently. This is not the case. Finasteride (propecia) is a 5AR inhibitor, which is the enzyme that creates DHT. 5AR is produced fairly slowly, and takes days to weeks to recover after dosing is discontinued. Thus, DHT levels remain decreased for a prolonged period of time after dosing is discontinued.

Honestly, DHT levels do not need to be at a certain level at all times to slow, stop, or reverse male pattern baldness. The reduction of DHT, in general, allows for the hair follicle seems to reduce the impact. As with most hormonal drugs, dosing fairly consistently will get a very similar result to dosing extremely consistently. Hormones take a long time to be produced and to act on their targets; blocking them acts similarly.

I'd say that within reason, you are receiving something close to the desired dose. If not, you are still taking a full pill every 4 days. Despite this, I think you'll find that in order to get a good result, you'll need to increase to 0.5 mg. I took 0.25 to acclimate my body to the finasteride. I then took ~0.33 (1/3 pill) and finally upped the dose to 0.5 mg.

Finasteride has a fairly short half-life and is completely eliminated from your body within two days, however its effects on DHT levels are more important. In fact, finasteride (propecia) is a potent 5-alpha reductase inhibitor. After it deactivates 5AR molecules, it can take as many as 2-3 weeks for those levels to return to normal. Because 5AR converts testosterone to DHT, you could stop taking finasteride for a FEW days without much of an actual result on serum DHT levels. However, allowing 5AR levels and hormonal levels to be in constant flux is inadvisable. Dose as consistently as you can with the 0.25mg, and I doubt the distribution will matter.

I guess if you're looking for an absolute answer, no one really has one. When you begin cutting pills and decide to take pills not-as-directed, you take matters into your own hand. If you want to be absolutely sure you're receiving the correct dose, take a full Propecia tab. I currently take 0.5 mg and am certain that it is helping at my temples at at my vertex.

 

[Jake_89]

Excellent reply Max!

I am planning on doing what you've done regarding goign from .25 to .5 and staying at .5 for good.

I was thinking .25 for a entire month then up to .5

Is that enough because @ .25mg i have absolutely no sideffects and id rather keep it at that...

 

[medmax84]

Excellent reply Max!

I am planning on doing what you've done regarding goign from .25 to .5 and staying at .5 for good.

I was thinking .25 for a entire month then up to .5

Is that enough because @ .25mg i have absolutely no sideffects and id rather keep it at that...

Everytime I increased my dosage, I had testicular pain for a day or two. That's the truth. All of my side effects have subsided. I continue to see reduced libido (I think about sex less), but I haven't had any trouble with performance.

If you get results at 0.25 mg then power-to-you, but I wanted to at least be at half the normal dose and 1/10 of the proscar dose. Dr Rassman of baldingblog.com always throws out a number stating that 0.5 mg is 80% effective, but studies seem to vary on whether 0.25 mg is effective. Remember that this is all cosmetic, so try to avoid taking it too seriously. I fell into the trap of taking it too seriously to say the least.

Best of luck! As you can see, there are no absolute answers in the absence of an actual study showing that 0.25 stops hair loss (which doesn't exist). There is a UPenn study that demonstrates that 0.25 mg of finasteride decreases almost as much serum DHT as 1 mg, but the FDA refused to reduce the dosage stating that tissue DHT is more important than serum DHT with respect to androgenetic alopecia.

 

[Jake_89]

Excellent reply Max!

I am planning on doing what you've done regarding goign from .25 to .5 and staying at .5 for good.

I was thinking .25 for a entire month then up to .5

Is that enough because @ .25mg i have absolutely no sideffects and id rather keep it at that...

Everytime I increased my dosage, I had testicular pain for a day or two. That's the truth. All of my side effects have subsided. I continue to see reduced libido (I think about sex less), but I haven't had any trouble with performance.

If you get results at 0.25 mg then power-to-you, but I wanted to at least be at half the normal dose and 1/10 of the proscar dose. Dr Rassman of baldingblog.com always throws out a number stating that 0.5 mg is 80% effective, but studies seem to vary on whether 0.25 mg is effective. Remember that this is all cosmetic, so try to avoid taking it too seriously. I fell into the trap of taking it too seriously to say the least.

Best of luck! As you can see, there are no absolute answers in the absence of an actual study showing that 0.25 stops hair loss (which doesn't exist). There is a UPenn study that demonstrates that 0.25 mg of finasteride decreases almost as much serum DHT as 1 mg, but the FDA refused to reduce the dosage stating that tissue DHT is more important than serum DHT with respect to androgenetic alopecia.

Again, thanks for the insightful post max.

I think I will do what you've done and up to .5mg. My libido has been exactly the same as prior to starting Propecia 3 and abit weeks ago so, so far it has not touched anything to do with libido or erections (very pleased) and 0 ball pains. Only side I had was itchy nipples which small doses of Aromasin cleared up completely...

I will probably go up to .5mg over the next few weeks ... ta

 

[Bryan]

Best of luck! As you can see, there are no absolute answers in the absence of an actual study showing that 0.25 stops hair loss (which doesn't exist).

Don't forget the early Merck "dose-ranging" study that tested a couple of lower finasteride dosages. Here's a scan of the trial:

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/finasteride ... anging.htm

As you can see from the study, 0.2 mg/day was tested, and found to be effective. A much lower dose of only 0.01 mg/day was not effective, however.

 

[medmax84]

Best of luck! As you can see, there are no absolute answers in the absence of an actual study showing that 0.25 stops hair loss (which doesn't exist).

Don't forget the early Merck "dose-ranging" study that tested a couple of lower finasteride dosages. Here's a scan of the trial:

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/finasteride ... anging.htm

As you can see from the study, 0.2 mg/day was tested, and found to be effective. A much lower dose of only 0.01 mg/day was not effective, however.

Good study, small sample size, although statistically significant results.

Bryan certainly presents an excellent argument here for remaining at your current dose. If you have no side effects, I can see no pressing reason to up your dose other than anecdotal testimony on here and my own limited experience. It is up to you -- as I said, once you deviate from the 1mg/daily routine all bets are off. That is the dose in which the propecia trials showed definitive results.

I don't know if I like the "castrated levels" language used in the study, however. If DHT is lowered to castrated levels, how can dutasteride lower DHT further? If you have the answer to this, Bryan, please give it to me. You know I am always excited to learn more about these things. My understanding was that there are two 5AR enzymes and that finasteride inhibits one selectively (by several orders of magnitudes). How would this take you to "castrated" levels if there is still an active 5AR enzyme at work? My impression about finasteride was that it had relatively low side effects because it REDUCES serum DHT without completely eliminating it altogether (DHT plays a small role in sexual health and maintenance).

Best of luck!

 

[Bryan]

I don't know if I like the "castrated levels" language used in the study, however. If DHT is lowered to castrated levels, how can dutasteride lower DHT further? If you have the answer to this, Bryan, please give it to me. You know I am always excited to learn more about these things.

Castration only lowers serum DHT to about the same degree as what you get with typical doses of finasteride. I first noticed that fact when I read a study that measured serum testosterone and DHT levels in a group of men before-and-after castration for prostate cancer. There was a fair amount of variation from one patient to another, of course, but I noticed at the time (this was several years ago) that it was an interesting coincidence that the average reduction in serum DHT was just about 70%, which is the same figure widely quoted for finasteride! I thought that was an interesting coincidence!

Dutasteride will lower serum DHT even more than either finasteride or castration, of course.

My understanding was that there are two 5AR enzymes and that finasteride inhibits one selectively (by several orders of magnitudes). How would this take you to "castrated" levels if there is still an active 5AR enzyme at work?

Take a look at these graphs from the Gisleskog et al studies of finasteride and dutasterde (see scan below). They show that at the standard Proscar dosage of 5 mg/day, finasteride inhibits 5a-reductase type 2 activity by an average of about 90% (notice that the activity fluctuates back and forth around that figure in that daily "sawtooth" pattern). Dutasteride, on the other hand, inhibits type 2 activity more completely (it looks to me like around 98%-99%, if you can "guesstimate" and extrapolate a standard Avodart dosage of 0.5 mg/day from the 1 mg/day line they provide in the graph), in addition to the partial inhibition of type 1 activity. All that documents how dutasteride is more effective at reducing serum DHT than castration.

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/dutasteride2b.htm