Hairline(again...)

[grimes]

doesn't this:

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/138/1/356

and this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... med_docsum

scare those who are taking propecia, but are only experiencing recession at the temples? i mean, taking propecia lowers dht levels, but it increases testosterone levels and the frontal area of your scalp is sensitive to testosterone.

 

[hans]

That's some nice research... but what does it all mean?

 

[Paul December]

That's some nice research... but what does it all mean?

I'd read it, but that would be like homework! :shock:

 

[grimes]

That's some nice research... but what does it all mean?

in short, testosterone has the same effect as dht on your hair follicles. propecia(finasteride) lowers your dht-levels, but to compansate, your body increase testosterone production. as such, your hairline, which some say is particularly sensitive to testosterone, could get worse.

this will probably not happen to a lot, but probably to some and it may explain why there are posters on forums such as this who experience bad results at their hairline while taking propecia/proscar.

 

[JDW]

I guess this must be what has happened/is happening to me...


Hopefully the oral spironolactone Ive ordered will counteract this.

 

[barcafan]

I would think a trade off of having +5-10% T levels with having -80% DHT is a pretty fair trade off.....

 

[grimes]

I guess this must be what has happened/is happening to me...


Hopefully the oral spironolactone Ive ordered will counteract this.

it might help, though i've read(from bryan i think) that one would probably need high doses of spironolactone to prevent testosterone from binding to the androgen receptors(kill your hair. ).

btw, be careful. spironolactone could cause some serious side effects.

 

[grimes]

I would think a trade off of having +5-10% T levels with having -80% DHT is a pretty fair trade off.....

that's the problem, isn't it. 'you think', but who knows? we're all different and we all react differently to drugs. to some, i do think it can actually make things worse. for the majority, it'll probably have no to very little effect and for a few it could make things either better or worse.

one won't know until you try it.

 

[hair today gone tomorrow]

That's some nice research... but what does it all mean?

in short, testosterone has the same effect as dht on your hair follicles. propecia(finasteride) lowers your dht-levels, but to compansate, your body increase testosterone production. as such, your hairline, which some say is particularly sensitive to testosterone, could get worse.

this will probably not happen to a lot, but probably to some and it may explain why there are posters on forums such as this who experience bad results at their hairline while taking propecia/proscar.

youre body doesnt compensate the lower dht levels by MAKINE more testosterone...wtf

 

[grimes]

youre body doesnt compensate the lower dht levels by MAKINE more testosterone...wtf

unfortunately, it usually does. in short, the brain notices that there is less dht and as such, tells the balls to make more testosterone.

http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/reprint/12/6/372

 

[hair today gone tomorrow]

funny i thought 5ar was needed to convert T into DHT and since 5ar is inhibited using finaster/dutasteride less T is converted into DHT and therefore there is more T in your system.

 

[grimes]

nah, i think it's simply the brain releases lh and fsh when you take finasteride, which in turn leads to an increased testosterone production.

i'll look for a study that confirms this.

however, either way, it doesn't matter what the cause is. fact of the matter is, testosterone levels go up about 10-15% for as long as you stay on finasteride.

 

[hair today gone tomorrow]

I think im right...and the increase in testosterone still leaves you in the "normal range" I had a blood test taken and my T levels were still normal.

 

[hans]

Most importantly where is the proof that testosterone not DHT is the culprit for a receeding hairline?

 

[sore loser]

Hair today gone tomorrow is correct - the increase in testosterone is seen because DHT is derived from testosterone to begin with. Thus, if you inhibit that step in the enzymatic pathway, you will naturally have an increase in testosterone.

There may be some other signaling pathway involved, however I am unaware of any at this time. If you have a study, etc that shows another pathway linking DHT and testosterone levels, I'd love to read it. Otherwise its basic enzymology. Think of a highway - if you turn a four lane road into a two lane road, you will get a backup of traffic in the area just before the merge. Same basic principle.

The levels of testosterone increase in the study you link to are "significant" - however remember that in science, statistics, etc, the word "significant" simply refers to reliability of the data. (i.e. - did they REALLY see a change in testosterone, or could a measurement error, sampling error, experimental difference account for the increase instead.) The results are significant - in this sense, meaning that they are in fact real observed increases. (I'm not implying that you don't know this already, however there may be other posters who do not know this distinction)

I am not a doctor, I am simply a biochemist, however, I would be AMAZED if a 10 or 15% increase in testosterone levels would mean the differene between a great hairline, and a completely thinning frontal scalp. In the end, the increased damage to your hair from slightly more testosterone (debatable point anyway) is far less than the damage it would recieve from DHT levels remaining at 100%.

Nothing is perfect. Additionally, Merck even admits that propecia is not intended to protect the frontal area of the scalp on the drug's website. listen to the testimonials. the disclaimer admits it.