michael barry
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 12
Harold,
In regards to genistein, look at this:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... gure&id=F4
Am I reading that right? It appears that downstream of cultivation with androgens, almost nada happens with these cells when genistein is added, but we know genistein doesn't block receptors (but it does downregulate androgen-receptor expression, which is well-known scientifically now as the following link demonstrates: (http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve ... 3803004688)
It appears some genes dont get expressed despite of androgenic uptake in the presence of genistein: http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/public ... 115=168447
Perhaps this is why Asian men born in Asia who still eat the traditional soy-heavy diet have little body hair, but nice head hair..................and comparitively little acne? Do they have less androgen receptor expression PERIOD due to both eating soya but somewhat less intense androgen receptor expression due to their mothers eating soy?
Parting shot: On male pattern baldness-research, (I dont like that site much either), they DID note that experiments with high fat diets dont indicate the hairloss effect that researchers expected, and that its been suggested that the fact that SOY is eaten a great deal in the east might be the reason that Asians with the traditional diet still have nice hair vs. urban Asians whose hair isn't as good as it was sixty years ago (and now have more acne in adolescence). Internal soy isoflavone only decreases serum DHT by something like 15 percent though........................perhaps topical soy isoflavones might be very very effective in male pattern baldness?
Any thoughts? Am I reading this 'wrong'?
In regards to genistein, look at this:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... gure&id=F4
Am I reading that right? It appears that downstream of cultivation with androgens, almost nada happens with these cells when genistein is added, but we know genistein doesn't block receptors (but it does downregulate androgen-receptor expression, which is well-known scientifically now as the following link demonstrates: (http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve ... 3803004688)
It appears some genes dont get expressed despite of androgenic uptake in the presence of genistein: http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/public ... 115=168447
[/quote:3lzlu3jb][Expression of androgen- and estrogen-regulated genes was measured in LNCaP cells cultured in the presence or absence of hormonal stimulation and the presence or absence of genistein. Genistein strongly suppressed basal expression of androgen-responsive gene (ARG) mRNAs, including prostate specific antigen (PSA) and Ste20-related proline-alanine rich kinase (SPAK), in LNCaP cells grown in 10% FBS. However, genistein had little or no effect on basal expression of two other ARGs beta2-microglobulin (B2M) or selenoprotein P (SEPP1) mRNA under similar cell growth conditions. Culturing LNCaP cells in the presence of the synthetic androgen R1881 induced increases in PSA, SPAK, B2M and SEPP1 mRNAs. The R1881-induced expression of these genes was uniformly blocked by genistein. For PSA and SPAK, genistein also blocked or down-regulated 17beta-estradiol-induced increases in mRNA expression. These results indicate that genistein selectively alters expression of ARG mRNAs in LNCaP cells through modulation of both androgen- and estrogen-induced signaling pathway. Based on these results, we proposed that the regulation of androgen receptor- as well as estrogen receptor-mediated events is potentially relevant chemopreventive mechanism for genistein administered at physiologic levels. /quote]
Harold,
If I remember right, the whole cell assay inhibition of alpha five reductase by genistein was 22% for type one and 89% for type two (Im certain about the later). Genistein has been shown to NOT BLOCK the androgen receptor in experiments (I have links for that), but the downstream gene activity, according the the first graph (the first link in this post) seem to demonstrate that genistein inhibits more downstream androgenic-stimulated gene activity than hydroxyflutamide or RU58841. The USDA article seems to indicate things downstream of androgen uptake that should be happening simply dont in the presence of genistein......................................maybe this is an explanation why sebum levels are so drastically reduced by topical soy in those rats and on people's faces despite the fact that genistein and daidzien are supposedly only "so-so" alpha five reductase type one inhibitiors?
One more thingy...........................and this IS interesting, Apparently neo-natal exposure to genistein lessens the expression of both androgen and estrogen receptors to the baby mice when born:
[quote:3lzlu3jb]Neonatal exposure to genistein reduces expression of estrogen receptor alpha and androgen receptor in testes of adult mice.Shibayama T, Fukata H, Sakurai K, Adachi T, Komiyama M, Iguchi T, Mori C.
Core Research for Evolutional Science and Technology, Japan Science and Technology Corporation, Kawaguchi, Saitama.
We investigated the long-term estrogenic influence of genistein on the male reproductive system in mice. Newborn ICR male mice were treated with genistein (10, 100, or 1,000 microg/mouse) for neonatal 5 days. As positive control, administration of diethylstilbestrol (0.5-50 microg/mouse) was carried out. In mice exposed to genistein,we examined weight of testes, sperm counts, sperm motility, and mRNA expression levels of estrogen receptor a (ERalpha) and androgen receptor (AR) at 4, 8 or 12 weeks after birth. Moreover, at 12 weeks of age, we evaluated protein level of ERalpha. In our conventional reproductive-toxicological study (weight of testes, sperm counts and sperm motility), neonatal transient exposure to genistein did not show adverse effects on the male reproductive system in 4, 8 or 12 week old mice. However, in mice treated with genistein mRNA expression levels of ERa and AR were reduced at 8 weeks. This reduction was recovered at 12 weeks in mice treated with a lower dose (10 microg) of genistein but not in those with higher doses (100 microg and 1,000 microg). In addition, ERa protein levels tended to decrease in 12 weeks of adulthood. Our results exhibited that the disruption of gene expression continued for long term such as 3 months after administration of genistein, even if no effect was found at conventional reproductive-toxicological level. We have shown that neonatal administration of weak estrogenic compound (genistein) affects male reproductive organs at molecular levels in adulthood.
Perhaps this is why Asian men born in Asia who still eat the traditional soy-heavy diet have little body hair, but nice head hair..................and comparitively little acne? Do they have less androgen receptor expression PERIOD due to both eating soya but somewhat less intense androgen receptor expression due to their mothers eating soy?
Parting shot: On male pattern baldness-research, (I dont like that site much either), they DID note that experiments with high fat diets dont indicate the hairloss effect that researchers expected, and that its been suggested that the fact that SOY is eaten a great deal in the east might be the reason that Asians with the traditional diet still have nice hair vs. urban Asians whose hair isn't as good as it was sixty years ago (and now have more acne in adolescence). Internal soy isoflavone only decreases serum DHT by something like 15 percent though........................perhaps topical soy isoflavones might be very very effective in male pattern baldness?
Any thoughts? Am I reading this 'wrong'?