Follica Delays Due To -planned Obsolescence- | Page 2 | HairLossTalk Forums

Follica Delays Due To -planned Obsolescence-

Discussion in 'New Research, Studies, and Technologies' started by Palex, Mar 5, 2018.

  1. coolio

    coolio Established Member My Regimen

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    People on these boards have a funny way of forgetting that new baldness sufferers are being born by the thousands every single day. A daily maintenance setup is a perk for a HM company but it is not required just to keep the money rolling in year after year.

    If there was a decent practical way to make their procedure a one-and-done, and Follica didn't do it, then somebody else would do it and take their business. They are using existing drugs and methods. It's impossible to file enough patents to keep everyone else out of something once they are public with it. Their hope for keeping a handle on the business they unleash is to offer the most practical/rewarding setup they can.
     
  2. That Guy

    That Guy Senior Member My Regimen

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    There is no way they would release something that didn't produce enough cosmetically significant hair.

    Something that people — somehow — don't seem to realize here is it's not like that even if the hair does wind up being DHT sensitive that it would be instantly killed in the womb, so to speak.
     
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  3. Tano1

    Tano1 Established Member My Regimen

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    I want Follica to work, but you’d still have to apply the “vice-versa” argument as well. If it is DHT sensitive, but it would not fall out immediately upon stopping treatment, then it’d just undergo the miniaturization process again obviously. The solution would be to simply do the treatment for life, but how much of that hair will thicken to an acceptable diameter and since miniaturization took years even amongst the most aggressive thinners, then wouldn’t regrowth and regeneration also take years even with minoxidil? Even then you’re faced with the possibility of not enough follicles of the appropriate thickness.

    If there’s one thing everyone knows it’s that even the most aggressive thinners don’t go straight dome in 1 or even 2 years, but a process of several years of miniaturization that started before anyone had even noticed any thinning. Maybe Universalis or something but not aggressive DPA.

    Although people shouldn’t expect a one and done because that sounds too far fetched for this particular treatment, I don’t know if anyone would conform to 25-35cm^2 peak after 3-5 years of treatment. I’m sure for people with mild male pattern baldness will dance to this, but if you have a receded hairline or any spot where you can basically feel a bit of smooth skin, that density still probably won’t cut it. It can be a functional cure if you can manage to get that density from Follica alone and then add 2 transplants, but if that’s the case, it’d be the same as waiting to see if Tsuji produces the miracle results.

    The reality is that we’re relying on those enhanced compounds they will add. A delay in their pivotal study hopefully translates to compounds that can promote “aggressive regeneration.”
     
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  4. Alternative

    Alternative Established Member My Regimen

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    Somebody was an aggresive thinner who went full fullhead. The Indian wounding study showed hairs that were of normal thickness.
     
  5. coolio

    coolio Established Member My Regimen

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    Lots of guys have created new terminal hairs from wounding methods that lasted for at least 5+ years. Dermabrasion does it. Needling can do it. The dermatology world agrees that this does happen sometimes.

    Whether new terminals will last for 20 years on a DHT-filled scalp is a different question. But IMO that is not a deal-breaker at this point.
     
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  6. Giiizmo

    Giiizmo Established Member

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    The thing is, even if OP were right, I still don't understand how turning what was thought to be a one-and-done procedure into a daily routine relates to "planned obsolescence"... A wrong usage of the term, maybe?
     
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  7. Timii

    Timii Established Member My Regimen

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    This is plan B actually
     
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  8. Afro_Vacancy

    Afro_Vacancy Senior Member My Regimen

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    @That Guy ,

    My apologies if this is redundant as I have not read the whole thread, nor prior threads,

    But I think that it will be a major nuisance if Follica's product requires daily application. I derma roll now, it is tiring as it takes a few minutes and that adds up, it's yet another thing to do at the end of the day. You make the comparison to brushing one's teeth, taking out the garbage, etc, but ... we already brush our teeth, shower, put on deodorant, floss, etc. The combination of all these actions adds up and taken together, it can be exhausting.

    Minoxidil and finasteride don't really require daily application. You can forget from time to time, sometimes take a week off, and it's totally fine. I suspect, or at least hope, that it will be the same with Follica.
     
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  9. Afro_Vacancy

    Afro_Vacancy Senior Member My Regimen

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    I hit puberty at ~12 and my hairline started receding a little bit at 22 or 23 (based on past pictures), so I assume that new hairs in good condition could last a while without anti-androgens.
     
    #29 Afro_Vacancy, Mar 6, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
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  10. That Guy

    That Guy Senior Member My Regimen

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    Well the thing is, the at-home device they've shown in the patents and their site is just for application of the compounds.

    The wounding device is an in-office procedure. There doesn't yet seem to be any info (unless I've missed it) on how often one will need to visit said office when you begin treatment.

    So it's the applicator that is the daily procedure; not the dermarolling equivalent. So it would replace the "minoxidil" step of your daily routine.

    I do wonder though about how lenient the treatment will be in missing days like with finasteride and minoxidil. The app for your phone appears to give you shit if you aren't using it enough, as it tells you in percentage how well you are following the routine.
     
  11. Tano1

    Tano1 Established Member My Regimen

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    That’s the thing though: “somebody” and not “a majority.” Although it’s excellent that one saw full regrowth, can they pinpoint why they did and the rest didn’t? Were those normal thickness hairs previously non-existent? Or were they just halfway through the miniaturization process?

    I support this research and do have optimistic views about it since I’ve done research myself into wounding and the links between hair and skin, but it does beg the questions of: From a scale of Dome to Mane, how much neo-genesis can occur and how much regenerative potential does this have? Follica already suggests that it should be used in conjunction with Fina so that already isn’t a good start. If the pill already doesn’t give shit for regrowth then I hope they only suggested that to maintain the new growth which would mean they will be DHT sensitive anyway. But that would just mean they have to get enough regrowth for it to at least provide the coverage and then all you’d have to worry about is not getting your hair wet or getting invited to pool parties. 25-35 still won’t cut it though. Can still be a functional cure for mild male pattern baldness in which case Follica will be their solution and maybe a transplant or two.
     
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  12. occulus

    occulus Experienced Member

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    I don’t know why were relitigating this, other than we have nothing better to do, but I fail to see why it matters if the new hair is sensitive (and I assume it will be). Newly created, senasative hair will take years to fall out, especially if you’re on an anti-androgen. When that happens, you will either go in for a new treatment, OR a new, superior treatment will be available.

    Follica isn’t a cure, and it’s not going to satisfy every need, but it will be a bridge technology that carries us to something much better. I don’t care how involved the protocol is or how expensive it is, if it grows hair to an appreciable degree, I will use it. There are few things I wouldn’t do for cosmetically appreciable hairgrowth.
     
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  13. That Guy

    That Guy Senior Member My Regimen

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    Agreed 100%.

    This should def be able to lower my hairline to my desired amount and that will probably tide me over for years. I have little doubt that by the time I'm your age, a more permanent, better solution will be available.

    You know, I never took pictures because I don't really care to share it and I'm not in this for anyone but me at the end of the day, but I almost wish that I had. Last week, I got my hair cut again and in a few months, I'll officially have been on the conventional treatments for two years; which I think is peak efficacy in most cases?

    I can now say that, I am very fortunate not only to have discovered the meds, but I dare say I've had an above-average response to them with no side effects. I certainly want to be NW1 instead of a slightly-further-back NW2, but the fact that my hair was able to recoup most of its density and thickness definitely has me counting lucky stars.

    I'd say that even at this point, though not being 100% happy with it, I can't complain and if everything went to shit and nothing better did come out in the next few years, I actually could live with my hair as it is now. So I am certain I will be glad to have used it when Follica comes out.

    No exaggeration: I've only been around 26 years so far, but I know that when I'm on my death bed, I will definitely say that choosing to do something about my hairloss was one of the best decisions I ever made.
     
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  14. Tano1

    Tano1 Established Member My Regimen

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    It doesn’t matter if it’s dht sensitive or not that wasn’t the argument. What matters is how much regrowth or neo-genesis occurs (how many new follicles per sq cm) on the scalp.

    Anywhere at all that you thin, you all should know will eventually be shiny with the exception of DUPA. So if anything, Follica will be a temporary cure for people that haven’t completely thinned out in any given area. Congrats, you prolonged your fate. That is unless Tsuji or someone else is successful. 25-35 is not enough by itself though unless you’re going for the severely diffused look. I also read back then that 25cm sq was only observed in the top responder so I’m hoping they can enhance neo-genesis enough with this pivotal study to create what anyone would call an “appreciable degree” of regrowth; otherwise, Follica will just buy you some time at best.
     
  15. That Guy

    That Guy Senior Member My Regimen

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    You're doing this thing called "moving the goal posts".

    You're not putting forth anything that hasn't been considered and reasonably-well answered, dude.

    First you said that you fear it wouldn't be terminal, but it was pointed out that previous studies have already shown the new hair to be of terminal thickness. But now you say "No, it's about how much regrowth occurs".

    But again, previous studies have shown that, regardless of what X amount of hair per cm sq is grown, it's absolutely capable of growing sufficient coverage.

    I don't know why people are so hung up on the per cm sq thing.
     
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  16. occulus

    occulus Experienced Member

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    Well, what does any treatment short of a cure do other than "buy you some time." For me, after getting on the Big Three, that time was over a decade. Can you honestly say that you wouldn't take another decade of staving off hair loss? Again, that's the point of bridge technologies - they provide a "bridge" to the next great development. Eventually, that development will be a full blown cure, either in total regrowth or complete secession of the disease. I mean, who whinges about turning a terminal disease into a chronic one?
     
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  17. Tano1

    Tano1 Established Member My Regimen

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    What? That determines how many hairs are in the area squared. If you don’t have enough follicles localized in the entirety of your scalp, then you just look like what everyone assumes is some sick person with some progressive disease. You need the coverage to make it work. Who has ever wanted to look diffuse after all. The per cm sq thing literally will determine your coverage.

    You mean 25cm sq were terminal and for only the top responders. You guys don’t need to deny it I’m on the same team you know and I’m all for Follica progressing as I said repeatedly, but C’mon, we all know that the average full head is sitting at around 80-100. 40 is the noticeable thinning since you will notice when 50% is gone right? This method just needs a boost and that’s all. Enhance it up to the illusion of density and we’re all set. Anyone can manage with that until something better has arrived. But don’t think for a second that you’ll get the coverage you want with just Follica’s initial results as they stand so far if you already can see most of your scalp on your hairline or crown. Already seen a transplant from a person I bump into every now and then and I didn’t have to ask to know that his hairline looks like 2 hairlines with that kind of density.
     
  18. Tano1

    Tano1 Established Member My Regimen

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    Yea of course I would. I’m sure the big three did wonders for you but I don’t think you got the coverage you wanted because I doubt you’d be on here if you did. You stated last post that there are few things you wouldn’t do for cosmetically appreciable hair growth. So then I should ask: are you happy with your hair right now? It just seems that you aren’t entirely satisfied with it at this point and time if you’re chasing further treatment. Almost makes it feel like you’re a hostage. It’s still fine if it’s a lifetime commitment assuming you get the coverage, but if you’re gonna pop pills, rub your head with compounds twice a day, order 3x more expensive than average shampoo and do a couple of wounding sessions per year for life, then wouldn’t you rather just pick one and call it a day? Nobody would be here if they were totally satisfied with their hair. And even if they are, they know their end result which is why they’re still here. Even with Follica you’ll probably still be here looking for another bridge treatment because you won’t know how long the effects of Follica will last and taking 5 different treatments probably isn’t very re-assuring to anyone. I’m sure anyone will agree that one or even two treatments producing the entirety of your results would probably be more re-assuring to you and anyone else because that just means you can proceed with that single or dual treatment and know it is clearly effective enough for you to lay to rest the possibility of seeing yourself as Dr. Evil.
     
  19. occulus

    occulus Experienced Member

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    I started losing my hair early - about 18. I got on the Big Three and maintained a full head of hair for over a decade - plenty of time to succeed in my chosen career, fuck a lot of attractive women, and marry a really great one. After about a decade, I started to lose ground, and I continue to do so, albeit slowly. So, no, I'm not happy about the current state of my hair, but I am happy for all the years the Big Three gave me, as I wouldn't have accomplished half as much as I have without it. For early losers, another year's worth of hair might as well be another year's worth of life - it's that important.

    So again, I don't understand the "good is the enemy of great" whining.
     
    #39 occulus, Mar 7, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  20. That Guy

    That Guy Senior Member My Regimen

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    and I'm saying it's a moot point.

    Again, studies that aren't near as advanced, nor as long in the works as Follica have yielded results that are absolutely satisfactory. Response to it will likely vary somewhat, with age and pre-existing conditions likely factoring.

    I don't care what the per cm sq number is if it provides sufficient coverage and there is no reason to believe Follica will not be able to provide, on average, the same results or probably better.
     
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