Darolutamide (odm-201), A Better Topical Than Enzalutamide? | Page 21 | HairLossTalk Forums

Darolutamide (odm-201), A Better Topical Than Enzalutamide?

Discussion in 'Antiandrogens - Propecia, Dutasteride, etc.' started by JLF, May 4, 2017.

  1. SteveTabernack

    SteveTabernack Established Member My Regimen

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    So how come I had harsh sexual sides on even minor RU doses.. is my body just a total bitch when exposed to all things antiandrogen?

    But, if there is a chance to avoid sexual side effects with Daro due to it not crossing blood brain barrier.. my desperation has probably reached heights that make me willing to risk giving it a go.

    Could probably cope with most sides besides anything dick related for legit hair treatment anyway.

    Gonna have to hit up this Luo guy to see if he can get it into a safetyfirstcuck country like Denmark.

    Were any of you quoted on a price for just 1g?
     
  2. IdealForehead

    IdealForehead Senior Member My Regimen

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    The funny thing about daro is it's the only antiandrogen that doesn't cross the blood brain barrier. So it's unique.

    It definitely in my experience doesn't reduce mental sexual desire. I still have loads of that. Too much. I hate it.

    But on the other hand it still can theoretically bind to androgen receptors peripherally in the body, for example, in the dick which can cause things like possibly penile atrophy or theoretically reduced penile responsiveness to sexual stimulation.

    I don't know. No one does. I've said before I'm a terrible candidate for monitoring for sexual side effects since my sexual function goes up and down with my mood. I also quit p*rn mostly in the past few months so that will probably play a role too.

    All I can say is use at your own risk.

    My hair is starting to look like a wig though. So that's fun. I'm happy enough with the hairline now I'm gonna definitely start re-expanding the expander as soon as new year hits. Time to get this thing done.
     
  3. SteveTabernack

    SteveTabernack Established Member My Regimen

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    I forget, did you try orals before (finasteride/dutasteride) and have sides?

    Theoretically, the best chance of avoiding daro to bind to androgen receptors in other parts of the body would be to to use lowest possible effective dose, and a vehicle that doesn't penetrate too efficiently, correct?

    With such small amounts of powder needed, I probably need to procure a scale that measures smaller increments than the one I used for RU. Which scale do you use?
     
  4. IdealForehead

    IdealForehead Senior Member My Regimen

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    finasteride and dutasteride don't work on me. I took 2.5 mg of dutasteride a day and still had normal DHT levels. So they're like placebos for me.

    spironolactone 200 mg a day killed my sexual function by around 70%.

    Cypro 100 mg a day killed my sexual function by around 95%.

    And like I said I can't really identify an obvious change on daro either way.

    My scale looks like this one:
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Jewelry-Mi...450311?hash=item4b1451c4c7:g:tXMAAOSwfVpYtCny

    It's impossible for any effective topical to not penetrate into your blood stream to some extent based on the fact that the dermal papilla which we must target for anti-androgenic blockade is at the level of an enormous amount of blood supply.

    dettaglio_articolo_interno_articolo1250x700_en.jpg
    I went into more detail on this subject previously here.

    But yes, vehicle makes a difference to a degree. ie. Avoid DMSO. If you want lower penetration use less alcohol also. Mostly it's about titrating the dose to the lowest needed for topical hair loss blockade, and then just crossing your fingers and hoping you can tolerate the amount that spills over into the blood circulation.

    I'll probably be dropping my dose to 0.15% soon (from 0.2%) as I still have mild dry eyes on 0.2% and although it's tolerable, it's not going to be ideal long term. All trial and error.
     
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  5. Sanchez1234

    Sanchez1234 Established Member

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    You take 2x 2ml 0.2% everyday right?
    I am upping my 1ml a day dose from 0.1% to 0.2% tonight because 0.1% is doing nothing so far. My sides are way less since i switched to minoxidil verhicle. Dont know if thats a good thing but i will find out soon enough.

    And i thought i read something about stability in vehicle but cant seem to find it.
    How long is daro good to use in minoxidil vehicle do you think? And do you store it in fridge or just the room?
     
  6. IdealForehead

    IdealForehead Senior Member My Regimen

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    I store room temp. I can't see any reason it wouldn't be stable. But I'm only mixing 20 mL at a time as I like to adjust dose periodically.

    I'm using 0.2% daro. I shower at night, so I apply 2 mL after showering, and then I apply 1 mL to just the hairline/temples again in the morning. This means 6 mg per day.

    I will be cutting to 0.15% soon (4 mg per day).

    Keep in mind I am not just using daro. My formulation is:

    0.2% darolumatide
    5% minoxidil
    5% niacinamide
    2.5% panthenol
    1% desloratadine
    0.2% caffeine

    All those agents were chosen for a reason, and they are probably all contributing to my success in some way. Though of course daro and minoxidil are the most important. I also don't have very aggressive balding genetics. I was hitting NW2.5 at my worse (thinning to NW3) after 10 full years of balding (from the time I first noticed my hairline pulling back at the corners).
     
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  7. Sanchez1234

    Sanchez1234 Established Member

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    I am thinking about copying everything you have exept minoxidil. You follow new research, do you not thinkt of alternative new growth stimulants that might helpt (instead of minoxidil)?
     
  8. SteveTabernack

    SteveTabernack Established Member My Regimen

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    You can dissolve all that in just Kirkland minoxidil?
     
  9. IdealForehead

    IdealForehead Senior Member My Regimen

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    Yup. Or 50 PG / 30 eth / 20 water.

    There were other things I would like to be using (keto, phenytoin) but they have poor solubility. These all dissolve easily.
     
  10. IdealForehead

    IdealForehead Senior Member My Regimen

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    Only other one was stemoxydine but it has shit solubility and most people said it didn't work very well. If you have any other suggestions I'm open-minded but this is already a cure for me as long as I can handle it.

    Don't know why you'd leave out the minoxidil. It's one of the best proven stimulants in existence.
     
  11. peewee

    peewee Member

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    So you dropped RU?
     
  12. IdealForehead

    IdealForehead Senior Member My Regimen

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    Yeah like a week or two ago. Feel better without it, even if it's just psychological. No need for that nonsense.
     
  13. peewee

    peewee Member

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    weren't you on a very high dose RU? So you think .2% or .15% is stronger than the high dose RU you were using?
     
  14. IdealForehead

    IdealForehead Senior Member My Regimen

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    Absolutely. I was on 7.5% 2 mL twice daily of RU which is 300 mg a day. This I think starts becoming a messy drug at these high doses.

    The problem is it has a short half life both in the serum and likely in the scalp so you have to blast high levels to keep it from dropping to subtherapeutic levels between administrations. This leads to fluctuations of high-low levels in the blood as well. I don't think it becomes very clean at all at those doses.

    I did a thorough comparison of RU and daro here in two posts:

    https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...conversion-of-ru58841-to-darolutamide.109065/

    The first post addresses the strength comparison in a test tube. The second post addresses the fact that daro has a much longer half life, and thus it is even stronger by comparison in real life use.

    I am fairly certain 0.1% daro is dramatically stronger than 7.5% RU but time will tell.
     
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  15. Sanchez1234

    Sanchez1234 Established Member

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    Well, i took minoxidil without anything for 8 months without results so i am looking for something new.
     
  16. Sanchez1234

    Sanchez1234 Established Member

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    Just upped dose to 0.3% 1.5ml once a day. No sides, no tingling, 0 results.

    Still need to shake for like 60 minuted and it quite annoying. Anybody got an idea how to automate this?

    I looked at the robart painter on a video but it seems like really small vibrations. Will that work? Still 50usd with transfers costd
     
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  17. jjoshh8

    jjoshh8 New Member

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    This is all starting to look like bs
    One member with fantastic results and everyone else gets nothing. Doesn't smell right
     
  18. SpaceInvader

    SpaceInvader Established Member My Regimen

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    One month in. Still nothing...

    I did recently started using minoxidil like almost two weeks now. My latest preparation is 40 mg in 20 mL Kirkland minoxidil 5% mixed with a gram of Niacinamide. Doing 1-2 mL twice a day. Using it along Polaris NR-10, Estrogel, BiEstro, and Estriol. So far the itching remains during the course of the day.

    You should use Kirkland 5% at least as a vehicle. It stays moist on the scalp for a long time unlike my crappy preparations previously. So far I have found it to be the best vehicle for Daro. Place it in a glass container with everything in it and submerge it in hot water in a pan. That will heat it up and give a few shakes and it should dissolve completely, you probably don't even need the shaker, just don't use too much. I had a tiny chunk that didn't dissolve in my last batch but it finally completely dissolved as I kept using up Daro. So far it's pretty clear. I'm applying it with a blunt-tip syringe.
     
    #418 SpaceInvader, Dec 30, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
  19. HairCook

    HairCook Established Member My Regimen

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    Well, OP didnt post picture proof. So there is that.

    Also, did you guys get your odm tested?

    I think odm is better than mdv in many aspects. I am not a fan of either cause both pull the full androgen plugs instead of just reducing dht, mdv just happens to cross the blood brain barrier more than odm, to an extent that it increase chance of seizure if too much ends up systematically, and I see a lot of people say that it works only that way. Considering op used DMSO at the beginning this might be the same case for odm?
    Also, considering the inflammation cascade started already and went on to rage on your scalp, you might get something to calm down the inflammations, like seti. In fact, its receptor crth2 aka gpr44 has shown to inhibit neogenesis of the hair follicle. Maybe using diclofenac for a while to deal with scalp inflammation would deal with the itch. you can later go down to one time a week or something. The cascade might be stopped this way. You can also incorpe selenium disulphide (once a week due to some hair growth negative effects).

    I would prefer a pgd2 receptor inhibitor all day.

    In the end you can also not really expect any regrowth only on odm, as this is just attacking the negative cascades of Androgenetic Alopecia without inducing any proactive stimulation. If the OP had massive regrowth then it happened probably because a) odm went systemetically, and b) his HFs were still pretty healthy.
     
  20. Sanchez1234

    Sanchez1234 Established Member

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    I dont have scalp inflammation but i am currently losing my hair faster than ever before. Hope this is shedding but i doubt it.
     

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