••••••••PLEASE SIGN !!!••••••••

dead

Experienced Member
Reaction score
1
I implore you.....


Go here and sign the petition that will be delivered to the G8 summit in Edinburgh


http://www.live8live.com/list/


Please, it only involes you putting your name and your country, it takes around 10 seconds and may help save lives
 

global

Experienced Member
Reaction score
7
Sorry I know your intentions are good but this verges on a political post and doesn't really belong here.

I don't support Live8 because it distracts from Africa's real problems and hence helps to perpetuate them.
 

v

Member
Reaction score
0
signed, good post.
 

Petchsky

Senior Member
Reaction score
13
Done. Nice one on posting this here.
 

The Gardener

Senior Member
Reaction score
25
Done.

1) I am cynical about debt cancellation. We've already cancelled the debt of a few African nations (Nigeria, for example) a few times, and yet they always manage to rack it back up during bust periods. Debt cancellation is no good unless the underlying reasons why these nations pursue unsustainable fiscal policy are addressed. Additionally, cancelling African debt will seriously undermine the debt discipline that all nations who seek Western financing have. It might have the long term effect of making financing from the West harder to come by in the future for projects that might very well be worthy of a good loan. But, I'll yield on this one just this time, especially if it is coupled with political reform as Bush and Blair have suggested.

2) Doubling aid sounds like a good idea. Sure, let's give that a try too... most of the money will probably end up back in the coffers of the NYSE and LSE as part of the portfolios of the African burgeoisie, but some of it might actually help to accelerate some economic activity in Africa. Let's do it.

3) Remove barriers to trade... sure, I like it. I'm a 'free trader' and this sounds like a very good idea in principle. So, if France signs up, does this mean they will agree to reform the CAP?
 

global

Experienced Member
Reaction score
7
1. I don't mind cancelling debt either, the institutions which lent these countries the money have to accept a write off just any any bank would have to accept a write off if they lent money to a an uncredit worthy customer.

2. I don't believe in doubling aid, in fact I don't believe in any aid. The moral and legal obligation of a country's government is to use the tax revenue it takes from its citizens for the benefit of those citizens, not the benefit of citizens of foreign countries.

There is poverty in the UK, people die everyday in the UK from lack of resources in the NHS etc. When those problems have disappeared here then it might be justified for the government to give our money to other countries.

Of course this doesn't mean that individuals cannot donate charitably as individuals if they wish, but the government should not be making this decision compulsory.

3. Many of the so called "barriers to trade" protect jobs in our countries and the economic well being of our nations. Again it is the duty of our governments to protect our countries interests and not damage our economies for the benefit of foreign nations. It is OK to talk in theory about reforming the CAP or removing subsidies to American farmers but are we really happy to see our agricultural industries destroyed to help African nations?

The real problems of many African states stem from poor government, corruption, and cultural issues which promote the massive spread of AIDS. These are issues which need to be dealt with by African countries themselves. Is it not yet another example of imperialism to assume that "the West" can and should be doing this?
 
A

Administrator

Guest
A well rounded view of all things is necessary to qualify as an intelligent and wise individual. Lopsidedness in any direction without considering all the ramifications, caveats, and exceptions is not wisdom nor intelligence. Nothing is black and white. Its good to see you guys think through things.

Admin
 

Petchsky

Senior Member
Reaction score
13
Just read today that 26 million people signed this petition. Not bad. It's a shame change takes such a long time to happen and even then it's normally bought about by technological advancement rather than poltics et al..
 

techprof

Experienced Member
Reaction score
0
global, though i can understand your views, keep in mind that poor countries in Africa and Asia became poor because the so called developed countries looted everything from them. (The estimated amount in dollars, UK has looted/taken from India during its rule is 10^18 dollars without taking into account interests).
Though I am not suggesting that all the imperial countries should give back everything they took, as humans are we not ashamed when a poor soul dies in africa because of hunger?
 

The Gardener

Senior Member
Reaction score
25
techprof said:
global, though i can understand your views, keep in mind that poor countries in Africa and Asia became poor because the so called developed countries looted everything from them. The estimated amount in dollars, UK has looted/taken from India during its rule is 10^18 dollars without taking into account interests).

Cool. So, the next time America has economic difficulties, we can just blame Britain and chalk it up to their colonial looting. Damn those Brits.
 

techprof

Experienced Member
Reaction score
0
gardy, I am not blaming anyone. Just that we shouldn't mind being taxed to avoid death due to hunger or death.
 

The Gardener

Senior Member
Reaction score
25
I know... I'm just being obstreperous... but I disagree. We should not be taxed to support Africans. Sorry. It's a bad idea, and in my humble opinion it won't work.

This is what I think, my opinion, which is open for discussion and subject to change:

Giving money to Africa will only inflate prices on the same miserable supplies of goods that they have now. And, in the longer term, a very large portion of it would inevitably end up in the hands of the very concentrated African upper class, who in turn would invest it in American and European corporations via the stock markets and would do NO good for long term African development. Additionally, this would only cement Africa's position in the world as a perenial addict to Western cash, and would place their population into one of institutional inferiority to Western charity.

While I fully agree with the goals of Live 8, there is a part of me who thinks that such efforts, in a way, are condescending to Africans and portray them as stereotypically backward and needy. Africans, on the whole as a peoples, are NOT needy, the continent is chocked full of intelligent and talented people who could do better for themselves if given the right context.

Africa is a continent that is already blessed with massive natural wealth. Debt relief, YES, but grants NO! Africa does not need money, Africa needs help developing a modern economy. Instead of giving them money, we should give banks some sort of financial incentive to underwrite small business loans to Africans, and have these loans partially backed by Western governments. We should be sending in teams to assist African governments in reforming judicial procedure, protecting and encouraging laws that regulate and nurture commerce, and helping them with constitutional reforms that add in elements of federalism to allow flexibility in nations with cliquish existing political systems. Actually, I just made the exact wording for that stuff up because it sounded good, I don't know exactly what we can or can't do legally, etc, but I think that is 'these kinds' of things that we should be playing in a role in. That is how we should help Africa.

And lastly, we should generously support the African Union, getting African nations to work together to be able to self-monitor each other and intervene so that Africa can self-police its own continent when one of the constituent nations faces natural disaster or political turmoil.

It is on this last point that I am most cynical. Look at what Mugabe is doing in Zimbabwe, he is making his nation's problems worse. Yet, not one African head of state, not ONE, not even Mbeki in South Africa will utter one peep of disagreement against him. I can understand Mugabe's land redistrubution from a philosophical point of view, but to literally destroy slums which are functioning neighborhoods in which entire families are living just for some point of vanity at best, political revenge at worst, is abhorrent.

The African nations' absence of leadership on this issue is why I am so cynical about just tossing money in their direction.
 

global

Experienced Member
Reaction score
7
techprof said:
global, though i can understand your views, keep in mind that poor countries in Africa and Asia became poor because the so called developed countries looted everything from them. (The estimated amount in dollars, UK has looted/taken from India during its rule is 10^18 dollars without taking into account interests).
Though I am not suggesting that all the imperial countries should give back everything they took, as humans are we not ashamed when a poor soul dies in africa because of hunger?

I agree that we took a lot from those countries but that did not MAKE them poor. People in India and Africa werent all driving around in Mercedes before we arrived. Those countries still have the same natural resources now as then and in the case of India still benefits from the railways and other infrastructure left by the British (and lets remember that India wasn't even a single unified country when the British arrived).

It is how they have managed those resources since we left that is the problem. The colonial past whatever its wrongs and rights is a long time ago now and IMO we can't keep using it as an excuse for the problems these countries face today.
 

techprof

Experienced Member
Reaction score
0
Global, more than the infrastructure and railways (which was built by British only to facilitate looting), the best thing left by British was the language English.

As some one coming from a family whose great granddad participated in the freedom struggle for India, I can assure you that British left India not only because of the freedom struggle, they felt that there wasn't much left to take and they became weak after world war 2.

If all the diamonds, steel etc have been taken, tell me what else is left? Not to mention the taxes paid by the farmers, subkings etc.
India has been a unified country in the past. There used to be lot of provinces run by subkings. After Moguls came, everything changed.

Again, I have no ill feeling against the current British (I am supportig the pommies for the Ashes). But, you can't discount the fact that but for colonization, more of these poor countries will have more resources and they will be much better off.

In my humble opinion, the awareness of world history is poor and lopsided. While I condemn and sympathize with Jews for what Hitler did, I feel that sufferings people had from colonization are not known/advertized as they should be.

I apologize if I had moved from the main topic.
 

The Gardener

Senior Member
Reaction score
25
No need to apologize, I think this is a good discussion given the title of the thread, and I appreciate hearing what you have to say.
 
Top