A Theory On Pfs, Thoughts From You Guys

[The Wanderer]

Hi all,

I wanted to ask from a scientific perspective is it possible the PFS is a very severe form of depression? Basically ive been dealing with sexual side effects from finasteride for a long time, ive grown used to them and they don’t bother me as much now, but my take on what caused it is a little different to a lot of pfsers in that i am totally open to the idea that pfs is severe depression and is in fact all in the mind with a knock on effect on physical sexual function.

I guess why i say this is that I’ve read extensively on the topic and haven’t come across any concrete reason why except for the one that harvard did as in finding depression as an issue in pfs men, my take is that finasteride messes with chemicals in the brain which triggers a huge depression in certain predisposed individuals then the knock on basically wrecks sexual function, and the effects being persistent as depression can last for years and years.

Really my only question is, is it scientifically possible for depression to physically reduce sensation in genital area and reduce genitals in length and girth. I am always keeping an open mind on the cause of this but find it also very curious that side effects of certain anti depressants cause almost identical sexual side effects as finasteride yet they have completely different ingredients but the common denominator is that you are dealing with depressed individuals?

Im totally open to thoughts either way on this but after many years of study I cannot see anywhere where scientists have found anything permanently altered in the body except for harvard which identified depression, and from what i have read the harvard study was very comprehensive and to date the most comprehensive study on pfs.

 

[INT]

Hi all,

I wanted to ask from a scientific perspective is it possible the PFS is a very severe form of depression? Basically ive been dealing with sexual side effects from finasteride for a long time, ive grown used to them and they don’t bother me as much now

To be honest, this is where I stopped reading. If you have that little respect for your own body I feel any discussion about side effects is useless.

 

[The Wanderer]

To be honest, this is where I stopped reading. If you have that little respect for your own body I feel any discussion about side effects is useless.

?? I think you have me wrong, I should have also added I haven’t used finasteride in 18 months because i stopped immediately after I got sides yet they still persist hence my quest for a reason.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

It's possible but to be honest as far as I can tell these categories are not well understood.

It's interesting that finasteride is the only hair loss treatment that causes PFS. People who go on min, laser, PRP, etc lose more hair but don't suffer from these side effects. So it's definitely a chemical effect.

 

[INT]

?? I think you have me wrong, I should have also added I haven’t used finasteride in 18 months because i stopped immediately after I got sides yet they still persist hence my quest for a reason.

That changes the situation. I am sorry to hear. I also suffer(ed) from PFS, you can find my thead in my profile. Maybe it can help you.

 

[The Wanderer]

It's possible but to be honest as far as I can tell these categories are not well understood.

It's interesting that finasteride is the only hair loss treatment that causes PFS. People who go on min, laser, PRP, etc lose more hair but don't suffer from these side effects. So it's definitely a chemical effect.

Thanks for reply man, appreciate it, I hear you on above however another point thats very odd which you reminded me off is that in my early desperate stages of PFS I’ve spoken to at least three guys who had pretty much the same symptoms as me except they used minoxidil, no sh*t, I have no doubt to not believe them and one told me he ended up in a psych ward from severe anxiety depression after experiencing sides, I believe they were genuinely experiencing what I physically experienced, it’s bizarre as I don’t believe minoxidil could cause that so does it lend itself to the root cause being something else as in severe depression.

Don’t get me wrong i know anecdotal cases of minoxidil sexual sides are tiny compared to finasteride however could that be because finasteride is widely associated with causing sexual sides and somehow these guys read so much on finasteride sides that psychologically they mimicked the side effects and genuinely experienced them, I’m getting a little out there but it’s been a very interesting topic to research but I just wish I didn’t have to experience the sides myself!

 

[sunchyme1]

?? I think you have me wrong, I should have also added I haven’t used finasteride in 18 months because i stopped immediately after I got sides yet they still persist hence my quest for a reason.

check out cdnuts and swolesource mate

it could help you

 

[The Wanderer]

check out cdnuts and swolesource mate

it could help you

Cheers man, I am familiar with this regimen and it makes great sense, holistic healing, ive introduced some of it, even there i read a theory of pfs which kind of fits with what im getting at.

Again I am very different to most pfsers as in I am totally open to the possibility that somehow depression and my anxious mind working against me caused all of this, I mean that in no disrespect to anyone suffering, I endured the hell of the early stages and barely got through to a comfortable place where i am now and I suffered a range of physical sides, including reduced girth, length, loss of sensitivity, curvature with a lot of these still lingering but still I am open to the idea that my mind caused this, something within me, a personality trait, a overactive subconscious that im not even aware of, then again I could be completely wrong but nevertheless I like to keep an open mind and dont get fanatical about the cause one way or another

 

[sunchyme1]

Again I am very different to most pfsers as in I am totally open to the possibility that somehow depression and my anxious mind working against me caused all of this

cdnuts specifically talks about this over on swolesource

a big part of those guys recovering is sorting out their head as well as their body

go check it out man

its all one big protocol

im sure you will benefit

 

[furrydome]

It's interesting that finasteride is the only hair loss treatment that causes PFS

That is interesting, given that there's also Dutasteride which does everything Finasteride does plus a little more.

Has anyone reported Post Dutasteride Syndrome?

 

[Endmymisery]

That is interesting, given that there's also Dutasteride which does everything Finasteride does plus a little more.

Has anyone reported Post Dutasteride Syndrome?

Idk where I read this but it seems it's easier for finasteride to cross the blood-brain barrier or something while dutasteride doesn't, so maybe in long term duta might be a safer drug if that really is the case.

 

[The Wanderer]

check out cdnuts and swolesource mate

it could help you

Thanks man, I will definitely look into this further.

A further point on above replies it is NOT just finasteride that causes PFS, there are many anecdotal cases of PFS like symptoms from Saw Palmetto (Two well known cases of suicide from saw palmetto side effects on Propecia side effect forums) anecdotal cases of sides from minoxidil (I’ve spoken to three) anecdotal cases of sexual sides from RU, I have also read maybe one case of Avodart sides ( which in itself is very odd as it is a far more
powerful drug)

I guess the only thing i could see in common with the guys above that got sides from using different drugs than finasteride is that they were all
SCARED of taking finasteride so chose something else.....I don’t know what that says but it does make me curious and as I said I like to keep an open mind.

 

[Bigbone]

Idk where I read this but it seems it's easier for finasteride to cross the blood-brain barrier or something while dutasteride doesn't, so maybe in long term duta might be a safer drug if that really is the case.

If that's the case, It's kind of a big deal IMO. Share if you find it!

 

[dermrafok]

Syndrome Post Finasteride is real
Neuroactive steroid levels and psychiatric and andrological features in post-finasteride patients
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960076017301024?via=ihub

 

[Dolph]

Hi Wanderer,

Not sure why other members started out by giving you sh*t. PFS is complex and I think all of us who have experienced it have spent a lot of time trying to suss out the how and why.

Rather than try to offer some sort of unified theory of finasteride, I'll just add some bullet points of possible contributing factors that have crossed my mind. None of these statements are answers/truth, rather they are questions -- I am not a neuroendocrinologist or urologist, I'm just another dude whose left nut is fucked up thanks to finasteride. I don't think these apply to every case, and I think part of the reason PFS is so hard to "diagnose" or understand is because the cluster of symptoms can be caused by many different things.


- People who develop PFS may have lower DHT, T, or any number of neurosteroids to begin with than others who try finasteride. As a result, taking finasteride drastically speeds up a process that was already happening.

- finasteride is designed to shrink your prostate. Maybe some people are much more sensitive to this, to the point where, upon stopping the drug, the damage is already done.

- People who develop PFS may be prone to depression and anxiety already. When your dick stops working on top of the fact that you've just begun losing your hair -- that is a really awful blow to the male psyche. Who among us wouldn't become depressed? That, added to the fact that a powerful androgen that affects cognitive function and mood is being modulated. It's possible that some people become fixated to the point where even though their symptoms would typically recover, the depression itself then leads to less physical activity, poor diet, etc, and messes up testosterone further than finasteride ever did.

- Some people may be so sensitive to hormonal changes and changes in the size of prostate that a small amount of finasteride is, effectively, a mild to moderate form of chemical castration.

- It's possible that people who develop PFS are either prone to diabetes or other ailments that cause neuropathic disorders and as a result develop retrograde ejaculation -- i.e. the watery semen might be a different problem than reduced testosterone or shrunken prostate.

- People with PFS tend to have an awful self image and lead a more reclusive life as a result -- which, just like depression, is terrible for hormones. It's a bad cycle.

The possibilities go on and on. Truth is, we don't know. Nothing wrong with trying the cdnuts protocol.

 

[furrydome]

Syndrome Post Finasteride is real
Neuroactive steroid levels and psychiatric and andrological features in post-finasteride patients
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960076017301024?via=ihub

Yeah except:
- n=16
- Under Method: "PFS patients were recruited through the Italian network finasteride side effects"
- Under Acknowledgements: "We thank the Post-Finasteride Foundation for the financial support to R.C. Melcangi"

IN OTHER WORDS:
- Not enough subjects to be statistically significant
- The subjects they used came from a group who were already complaining about finasteride
- A "PFS" advocacy group funded the thing

Nevermind that they keep saying "Post-Finasteride Syndrome" as if it were an accepted medical condition. From Wikipedia:

Men in the U.S. and Canada concerned about persistent sexual side effects "coined the phrase 'post-finasteride syndrome',

 

[dermrafok]

Yeah except:
- n=16
- Under Method: "PFS patients were recruited through the Italian network finasteride side effects"
- Under Acknowledgements: "We thank the Post-Finasteride Foundation for the financial support to R.C. Melcangi"

IN OTHER WORDS:
- Not enough subjects to be statistically significant
- The subjects they used came from a group who were already complaining about finasteride
- A "PFS" advocacy group funded the thing

Nevermind that they keep saying "Post-Finasteride Syndrome" as if it were an accepted medical condition. From Wikipedia:

Atypical post-finasteride syndrome: A pharmacological riddle.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27298504

They do not complain for no reason....

https://www.lawyersandsettlements.c...opecia-lawsuit-finasteride-side-45-22507.html August 14, 2017

"American men might only have realized that they had been harmed by Propecia 15 years after the damage was done. More to the legal point, they might have lost the chance for redress".

 

[The Wanderer]

Syndrome Post Finasteride is real
Neuroactive steroid levels and psychiatric and andrological features in post-finasteride patients
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960076017301024?via=ihub

I think you may be missing my point man, let me explain, I’ve lived with PFS, I know it’s real, my question is more to do with what is it, from my time with it and now that I’ve reached a point of stability and the dust has settled I can look back at it in a more objective manner and I’m leaning to it being a far more psychological issue, that’s not saying you don’t suffer physically, I did, still do to a point.

I’ve done a ton of my own research on it reading hundreds of anecdotal stories and various studies and the melcangi (however I’m not sold on it as the pool is small and it is funded by a group looking for a result) one you quote and also being honest about my own physical and psychological state prior to taking finasteride, I’m leaning toward it coming from extreme catastrophic thinking driven by FEAR in reaction to the body adjusting to finasteride, the fear of it being irreversible, the fear of not having a sex life again, that’s a tremendous psychological burden to live with. You google it everything is permanent, permanent, permanent, the seed of doubt in your subconscious is sown that you will never be right again, the doubt and fear becomes a belief and a new reality. There is tremendous fear online yet now looking at it in a objective manner nobody knows that it’s actually permanent, nobody knows what it is, just theories. The ironic thing to pfs is that in my opinion a lot of the guys desperate to fix it and get better are actually screwing themselves far more up by living on online forums where it is assumed that it is irreversible and again keep themselves locked in a state of high stress and high cortisol which plays havoc with their system, hence it drags on for years and years.

I could be completely wrong and will hold my hand up if i am wrong but harvard is a clue and also the stories of similar side effects from minoxidi, if you google it you’ll find a lot, is a clue to me also as to the true cause.