A few bits on Revita's CPs and concentrations

[Jacob]

Yep..and she forwarded it to the lab or whatever. Now since I've asked..it's your turn


Have you guys seen their response to the minoxidl sulphate stability question(as asked by Hairwinstherace)? Does it make sense to you?

Once minoxidil sulfate is added to a liquid mixture, the sulfate ion separates leaving behind pure minoxidil that is completely stable. Therefore, we just have to keep minoxidil sulfate cool before adding it to the formulation. We hope this answers your question satisfactorily

So they don't have to make it stable in the final product..just keep it cool up to the point of making the topical. Couldn't you just use "plain" minoxidil then??

 

[Guest]

Yep..and she forwarded it to the lab or whatever. Now since I've asked..it's your turn

Oh Ok, if you followup with her about the status of the R&D Team reviewing this question THEN you'll normally get your response pretty quickly. This is what I did when I asked them what type of CP's they use and at what concentration.

[quote:bc1d2]Once minoxidil sulfate is added to a liquid mixture, the sulfate ion separates leaving behind pure minoxidil that is completely stable. Therefore, we just have to keep minoxidil sulfate cool before adding it to the formulation. We hope this answers your question satisfactorily

So they don't have to make it stable in the final product..just keep it cool up to the point of making the topical. Couldn't you just use "plain" minoxidil then??[/quote:bc1d2]

By "plain minoxidil" do you mean basically the same stuff that they use? What is the benefit of using minoxidil sulfate anyways? I'm not a chemist but I do work in the field of science and if what they're saying is true it sounds like it makes sense. If minoxidil sulfate has stability issues, and then it's mixed with something to no longer make it minoxidil sulfate than there shouldn't be a problem as long as they kept it stable when it was in its pure form.

 

[Jacob]

After nearly a week of not getting a response..I did ask her what was going on. I haven't even heard back from HER again.

If it's not minoxidil sulphate when you're putting it on your head..why use it then? Doesn't Dr. Lee use "pure minoxidil"? Any of the other minoxidil products out there?

I'm not a chemist either..which is why I'm asking.

 

[Jacob]

Does anyone have the latest DNC ingredients list? Shouldn't that sulphate ion be in the ingredients list, if it existed? Here's the older list: Besides minoxidil...they say "Deionised Water, Nanosomes of Ivy, Hops, and Capsicum, Nanosomes of Procyanidin B-2 and C1, Adenosine, Diaminopyrimidine Oxide (Aminexil), Triclosan, Ethanol, Vitamin and Mineral Complex, Propylene Glycol, Piractone Olamine, Methylparaben"

Actually that might be the latest..since the Pro's are listed there. Notice again nothing about "nanosomes of minoxidil" or Adenosine, etc.

 

[Guest]

Aren't the nanosomes supposed to be the carriers themselves? Such as the nanosome is made out of the apple poly and it will carry through the active ingredients to the follicle?

That's how they make it look on this website:

http://www.divineskin.com/spectralRS/nanosome.asp

Is that how it works or should the nanosome itself be of minoxidil?

 

[Jacob]

Yes..the nanosomes are the carriers. Even ingredients not actually encapsulated can "tag along" with them. But they try to tell us even the Minoxidil and Aminexil are encapsulated(which is much better than just tagging along). And yet the ingredients list etc don't say they're encapsulated.(this paragraph was added...ya know..edit)

They have told ppl privately in emails and you have ppl thinking that the minoxidil is encapsulated in nanosomes. I'm not sure if you've seen my posts in another forum..but I've asked DS myself and they kept telling me yes, the minoxidil is encapsulated. Starting a year ago I've asked why they don't just say so on the label and even on their website. I was told they'd do that when the website was updated. It's been updated more than once..still nothing to clear this up. I'm going to post something I've said in another forum:

The "active" ingredients discussed on the website are the HERBAL active ingredients. They talk about these ingredients being encapsulated.

From their website:

"Nanosomes (microscopic capsules deliver active ingredients deeper into the tissue)"

Yes..they do now say the new ingreds are encapsulated(again..why not just say so regarding the minoxidil etc? They "upgrade" the website with these new ingreds..but can't clarify things as they said they'd do?): "The addition of Adenosince and Procyanidin B-1 and C-2 is a recent innovation that further boosts the performance of Spectral DNC. Both compounds are encapsulated in our proprietary nanosomes. Spectral DNC is the only formulation in the world that delivers Adenosine and Procyanidin B-1 and C-2 in a nanosomal carrier agent."

That may not exactly be true either. Fred's Nanoadeno contains both Adenosine and apple peel extract(for the pro's).

And this is still there: "DS Laboratories proprietary nanosomes act as the carrier enhancement agent. These nanosomes are about 10 times smaller then cells and penetrate deep into the epidermis and continuously release the active herbal extracts over a 12 hour period"

Please reread that about a dozen times.

Do the same for this which is right after the above: "This allows penetration deeper into the hair follicle then other carrier agent including Tretinoin or Azelaic Acid and further enhances the performance of all the ingredients in Spectral.DNC. "

Even on their nanosome/technology page it still says this: "This highly advanced delivery system combined with finest quality natural active ingredients insures remarkable results and effectiveness." See the word "natural"? minoxidil and aminexil are not "natural".

As for what they say in their package insert- we've been through that before as well. From above " and further enhances the performance of all the ingredients in Spectral.DNC" is what they're referring to as the nanosomes helping the other ingredients absorb better- I think it says or used to say on their website about the other ingredients attaching themselves to the nanosomes. Nothing about minoxidil and Amenixil(etc) being ENCAPSULATED.

 

[Guest]

Jacob,

In your last post, you've gone from confusing me more on this to clearing things up.

So it sounds like the nanosomes themselves are simply, let's say, a NEUTRAL chemical compound and these nanosomes in Spectral DNC contain the Ivy, Hops, Capsicum, and now the Apply Poly's plus Adenosine is this correct?

Now they do NOT have the minoxidil, aminexil, and copper peptides encapsulated in nanosomes BUT they are saying that these ingredients can bind to the nanosomes to enhance delivery to the follicle?

I'm guessing your issue is just clarification of the matter? I'm not sure if you use the Spectral DNC or not but I have been and I am pleased with the results in the 4 and half months I've been using it. If these are the results after a full year or 15 months than I probably will not be so pleased. I'm guessing it WOULD be better if all of the active ingredients, especially minoxidil, were encapsulated in the nanosomes rather than just having them bind to the nanosomes instead.

 

[Jacob]

Yes..you've pretty much got everything right. I don't think they say the Adenosine is encapsulated though.

It's misleading..at the least..to be telling us the minoxidil is encapsulated in nanosomes. I think it's pretty obvious they read these forums(and some have said even post in them) and know what we want and are aware of the better delivery systems etc. The same for minoxidil sulphate. I don't think Joe Blow ordering their stuff online or picking it up in a store are going to be aware or even care about the details- but are going to be so impressed with the ingredients etc because of the way they describe things.

IMO this company is the latest Avacor(or whichever one it is that contains minoxidil). Sure the product will work for some..even great for some, because of the additional ingredients. But they both make claims that can't be substantiated. And I think it's obvious DS has been very misleading in other areas(mentioned above) as well.

I was forwarded this bit which came from Dr. Lee(I recall the price part being posted before):

You're absolutely right in your logic. If "the sulphate ion leaves- leaving behind pure minoxidil", there would be no advantage to using minoxidil sulfate. I'll repeat the information on minoxidil sulfate:

Minoxidil sulfate is available from chemical companies such as Spectrum(http://www.spectrumchemical.com) and The Lab Depot, Inc. (http://www.labdepotinc.com). The cost of minoxidil sulfate is more than $25.00 per milligram (mg). One milliliter of a 5% minoxidil sulfate solution requires 50mgs of minoxidil sulfate, so the cost of the minoxidil sulfate alone for a single application would be at least $1250. If 1mL of 5% minoxidil sulfate were to be applied to the scalp twice a day for one month (30 days), the cost would be $75,000"

Does it say "minoxidil sulphate" anywhere on the bottle, packaging or literature that came with it?

BTW...love your handle. Big fan of Ron Paul as well..on most issues :wink:

 

[Guest]

Jacob,

Do they actually state anywhere that the "minoxidil and aminexil IS encapsulated in nanosomes" on their website or was it just in private correspondence with you? I haven't seen any emails myself that this was the case and I was under the impression myself that the minoxidil and other ingredients were not encapsulated in nanosomes. I just thought that somehow with these nanosomes mixed in with the solution it helped deliver these ingredients to the follicle better which sounds like it's the case if it can "tag along".

I asked DS Labs when I first started how long I can way to apply other topicals before/after DNC and I was told that if I do it afterwards, I would have to at least wait until it dries. I was also cautioned that anything I apply afterwards would penetrate better with the nanosomes so I guess my impressions were established than that minoxidil wasn't encapsulated. At the time I think it was just the 3 herbs that were.

I see the comparison you're trying to make with Avacor but I think that might be a bit unfair to DS Labs to draw that same line. Wasn't Avacor outright guilty of fraud? I guess you could try to hold DS Labs liable too if their correspondence to you stated, as fact, that minoxidil is encapsulated in nanosomes but perhaps it was the error of a particular individual or two who works there rather than the company line? Either way I agree that 100% clarification needs to be made on this issue and the minoxidil sulfate issue. I see what you're saying now on the cost if they truly use pure minoxidil sulfate for all of the 5% solution.

The defense I will give them is that they are using a decent line of ingredients besides minoxidil, unlike avacor, and the product is rather inexpensive. Their perception gives off a bit more professionalism than Avacor too, but they should be 100% clear. Thanks for bringing this up.

P.S. The FairTax.org plan, and Ron Paul's message, are pretty much centered around common sense which is my most support both when they learn about them. Keeping 100% of your paycheck, and having our politicians follow the Supreme Law of the Land (Constitution), what a concept!!!!!

 

[Bryan]

Keeping 100% of your paycheck, and having our politicians follow the Supreme Law of the Land (Constitution), what a concept!!!!!

Do you really think it makes much difference whether we keep 100% of our paychecks but pay increased sales taxes for goods and services, or simply maintain the status quo? I'm curious as to why that's apparently such a hot-button issue for you. Is it really truly simply a matter of following what you consider to be the letter of the Constitution?

Bryan

 

[Guest]

Yes Bryan, REALLY better than the current mess that we have now is not even the tip of the iceberg. I can summarize it here if you wish but it would be better if you would just read about it.

An introduction: http://www.fairtax.net/introduction.htm
An 18-minute video presentation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwuS9VCPmb0

I wouldn't say this is purely Constitutional because of the prebate. It's not perfect but it's MUCH better than the 70,000 page mess of a tax code we have now or any tax on income for that matter (I'm a former flat taxer).

 

[Bryan]

I believe I've already read that. I don't know why you think it would be better than how we do it now. Trust me on this one fundamental point: regardless of what KIND of tax we have (income tax or sales tax), the government IS going to get the money they need, to operate.

Bryan

 

[Guest]

I believe I've already read that.

You have read what exactly?

I don't know why you think it would be better than how we do it now. Trust me on this one fundamental point: regardless of what KIND of tax we have (income tax or sales tax), the government IS going to get the money they need, to operate.

That's a flaw of this proposal IMHO. It is revenue neutral rather than also reducing the revenue brought in to D.C. In fact it's likely going to be revenue positive from the economic burst this is going to provide.

They are going to get their money, but the fundamental point is that they have no rights to confiscate the fruits of your labor via the personal income tax, alternative minimum tax, social security and medicare tax, payroll tax, self-employment tax, corporate tax, gift tax, estate tax. Do you know how much you earn right now and how much the feds take from you? Sure they are going to get their money under the FairTax, but instead of SOLELY getting it from the producers, they will be getting it from the 20-30 million illegal aliens residing in this country, as well as from the $3 Trillion underground criminal economy that goes completely untaxed under the current system. Not to mention the 50 million tourists who come to our shores every year, and of course those who currently pay no income tax as they shelter their earnings off-shore, utilize the tens of thousands of loopholes in the tax code, and live off of interest. You buy something new at the retail level, you pay an excise tax. Fair and simple.

Take a look at the video in the last message and have a look around here:

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer? ... asics_main

 

[Jacob]

Jacob,

Do they actually state anywhere that the "minoxidil and aminexil IS encapsulated in nanosomes" on their website or was it just in private correspondence with you? I haven't seen any emails myself that this was the case and I was under the impression myself that the minoxidil and other ingredients were not encapsulated in nanosomes. I just thought that somehow with these nanosomes mixed in with the solution it helped deliver these ingredients to the follicle better which sounds like it's the case if it can "tag along".

In private correspondence with me(3 times) and many others from these forums. You're one of the very few who I've seen say they didn't think the minoxidil was encapsulated. I've been going back and forth with another poster in another forum who is(or should I say was) convinced that the minoxidil is encapsulated in nanosomes.

Not everything can be encapsulated and/or it's not as easy with certain ingredients..etc. I'm not an expert on this issue but I'm just going by what I've read. I guess anybody could just add liposomes to a product w/out encapsulating them and say they use a liposomal delivery system.

I see the comparison you're trying to make with Avacor but I think that might be a bit unfair to DS Labs to draw that same line. Wasn't Avacor outright guilty of fraud? I guess you could try to hold DS Labs liable too if their correspondence to you stated, as fact, that minoxidil is encapsulated in nanosomes but perhaps it was the error of a particular individual or two who works there rather than the company line? Either way I agree that 100% clarification needs to be made on this issue and the minoxidil sulfate issue. I see what you're saying now on the cost if they truly use pure minoxidil sulfate for all of the 5% solution.

It was and is the company line. I got that response from 2 differernt ppl. One worked in the lab- supposedly.

It's this nanosomal issue..it's the % issue...it's the minoxidil sulphate issue..and I'm probably forgetting some others.

The defense I will give them is that they are using a decent line of ingredients besides minoxidil, unlike avacor, and the product is rather inexpensive. Their perception gives off a bit more professionalism than Avacor too, but they should be 100% clear. Thanks for bringing this up.

That's if they're using them. I asked for and was promised a COA type thingy...for the minoxidil sulphate as well as the procyanidins- which are another very expensive ingredient. Like on everything else..they stalled and then stopped getting back to me. That and the % of ingredients could explain the cheaper price.


BTW..I guess it doesn't say anything about minoxidil sulphate on the bottle etc?

 

[Guest]

I would vote for Ron Paul over Hillary I think