Whats up with that roundtable discussion on finasteride?

TheEscapist

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The PFSfoundation has a news article about a roundtable discussion between doctors on finasteride that was supposed to occur on February 19th. Are we going to hear anything about that, or were they just letting us know?
 

Wuffer

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I believe they have had a few of these round table discussions in the past, but I didn't hear anything from them.

Propeciahelp is quite obviously closely linked to lawfirms, which means discovering hidden dangers of finasteride will be profitable. I am going out on a limb saying that the pfsfoundation has similar motivations, but I am not certain and hope their cause is more genuine. I'm guessing that any significant findings will be kept secret until they can be written up in a formal study that can be published. This would be suitable ammo for pending lawsuits.
 

Mew

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Propeciahelp is quite obviously closely linked to lawfirms, which means discovering hidden dangers of finasteride will be profitable.

Complete nonsense Wuffer. Propeciahelp is a support forum for men suffering from persistent side effects from Finasteride. Out of that suffering are many men who are pursuing legal action against the manufacturer as a result of the permanent damages they have sustained from the drug.

Propeciahelp.com was started in 2006 -- long before any lawsuits took shape -- and it is completely non-profit and run on a volunteer basis by the Admins without any outside financial compensation. Any linking to lawfirms by members or otherwise is for altruistic purposes, to better serve men looking to take action against the manufacturer for the damages they have sustained from the medication.


I am going out on a limb saying that the pfsfoundation has similar motivations, but I am not certain and hope their cause is more genuine.

You obviously have not reviewed the www.pfsfoundation.org site, if that's what you believe. The PFS Foundation does not have "similar motivations", and is itself a non-profit entity with the goal of spearheading research towards finding the root cause(s) of PFS, in order to develop effective treatments.

Really Wuffer, your claims are unfounded and disrespectful, but I'm not surprised considering your pro-Finasteride bias on this site and hairlosshelp.com. Since we're making claims, I still maintain that you are a paid shill for Merck via one of their hired PR firms, or via Merck themselves. Good day to you.
 

Quantum Cat

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when people see dollar signs in their eyes, suddenly they experience all kinds of side effects. And there are always unscrupulous lawyers out there more than willing to sign up. Sad, but that's the age we live in now
 

Fanjeera

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That lawsuit stuff came long after people claiming side effects. It has not even become worse since then. At least I feel that there is not more and more talk about finasteride as time goes on. It's been this silent for years now. Sometimes somebody get's in the media and says he has the same persistent sexual side effects and that's all. We all know that already. Nothing new coming up. I too believe that doctors have discussed about the drug several times before, but have found nothing worth concentrating on.
 

Quantum Cat

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I'm just slightly concerned that if any of these cases are won, Finasteride may be banned - at least for hairloss. Then a lot of people who get real benefit from the drug will suffer.

I am curious as to how these persistant impotence/erectile dysfunction lawsuits will be proven in court. For instance, how will the plaintiffs prove that their member was in perfect working order before taking Propecia? Will they call on ex-girlfriends (if they have any) as witnesses and get them to testify as to how virile the guy was before finasteride?

and how will they prove that the guy is now permanently impotent? Show him some p**rn in court and see if he gets a boner or not? Have the defence lawyer fondle him to see if he gets aroused? Let's hope the guy isn't secretly gay or that will mean the whole case collapses...
 

Fanjeera

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I think all is fine now, when there's the line saying you can really get persistent ED from the drug. It's your own risk calculation from there. As they have acknowledged now that the drug can happen, there may be some unsuccesful cases, but I don't think they'll ever take it away from the market. Doctors one day probably will not recommend it for a very long time use, because like I have said a thousand times already, you can't look away from the penile fibrosis and weight loss studies: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22375859 ; http://www.asiaandro.com/archive/1008-682X/5/33.htm
I hope one day they'll show, if these changes are reversible or not once the person (or a rat) stops the drug.
 

Quantum Cat

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is there a way to tell if you're losing fibrosis? I've been taking it for 5 years and I honestly can't say I've noticed my penis losing any length or girth, but I was way past puberty when I started
 

IrishFella

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Penile fibrosis was in rats. Any evidence in regards to human beings? anything mentioned in the trials, both official and unofficial? (I don't believe for one second that there is a cover up like some claim), any claims in regards to earlier usage? the drug has being on the market 20 years or so. These lawsuits are going nowhere, while there is an unfortunate few that suffer permanent sides, and I can empathise, there is also the William McKee aka Mandi, who claims Finasteride turned him into a transgender and he is looking to sue Merck even though he bought generics online. (Whic

So many variables, legitimate sufferers, scumbags feigning sides looking for a big payday, snide and parasitic lawyers looking to take advantage of people.

As for the drug being took off the market, chances are slim to none.
 

Fanjeera

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It's not actual sudden fibrosis -- it's very gradual. 4 weeks in rats is a lot more in humans. People lose the perfect muscular architecture of the penis with age too as the androgen levels become lower. I'm pretty sure such changes are faster when taking finasteride (no DHT, high estradiol) and may not be easily detectable to the eye from the outside. Rats and humans are not that different. 5ar2 is definitely needed for the penis to grow. Why not for it to maintain its structure? For rats it definitely is so. I'm pretty sure it's the same for humans, but you can't tell 100% without making a few dozen corpus cavernosum biopsies.
 

Admin

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You obviously have not reviewed the PFS Foundation site, if that's what you believe. The PFS Foundation does not have "similar motivations", and is itself a non-profit entity with the goal of spearheading research towards finding the root cause(s) of PFS, in order to develop effective treatments.

His claims are not unfounded. I don't want to speak for him, but his opinion is no doubt colored by the fact that we have had to ban at least one Attorney on this site who repeatedly registers new names and makes sure to point *everyone* to that web site for "more information" on pursuing legal action. We just banned this individual yet again last week under his third username. My personal opinion is that the focus shouldn't be on people who talk trash about the sites, but instead encouraging the attorneys (vultures) who are going to other web sites to rile up fear and terror about finasteride as a way to put money in their pockets. People think PFS Foundation is attorney-involved because Attorneys are pointing people there. Even if its just some loser who posts on the forums with his attorney website in his signature. This is happening. And this should be the focus of attention for both of the aforementioned sites, if integrity is still of concern. I am not one to censor things Mew. But I am to the point where Im about to ban all mention of PFS Foundation on this site because of these attorneys who keep coming here to scare the sh*t out of people and then point them to that site for resources on legal action. I almost pulled the trigger on this last week, but I am waiting to see how many times we have to handle these attorneys.

Admin
 

Admin

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His information matched with HabeusCorpse ... who didn't even bother to use a non-"Attorney" sounding username. Nobody knows their actual profession, but sufficient evidence was available to indicate that these users are *not* just average joe's who are suffering from hair loss. I suppose its possible that its someone associated with PFS Foundation, a moderator, or some other individual with disingenuous motives, but the bottom line is this: HairLossTalk isn't a farming ground for other web sites to come and promote. None of us go there with that intention. I haven't gone there at all. So such individuals will be picked off and banned when identified. If it keeps happening, we will ban mention of the site. To be completely candid, as an Admin, I don't like being put in the position where I have to try and "figure out" if the person has ulterior motives. When I find myself in that position too often, I simply eliminate all traces of the source.

Admin
 

IrishFella

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It's not actual sudden fibrosis -- it's very gradual. 4 weeks in rats is a lot more in humans. People lose the perfect muscular architecture of the penis with age too as the androgen levels become lower. I'm pretty sure such changes are faster when taking finasteride (no DHT, high estradiol) and may not be easily detectable to the eye from the outside. Rats and humans are not that different. 5ar2 is definitely needed for the penis to grow. Why not for it to maintain its structure? For rats it definitely is so. I'm pretty sure it's the same for humans, but you can't tell 100% without making a few dozen corpus cavernosum biopsies.

I understand you study medicine but saying something like "I'm pretty sure it's the same" means absolutely nothing without evidence from actual scientists/doctors who are proficient in this subject.

But thanks for your reply.
 

Fanjeera

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But there's a high chance it is like that, if it has been found in rats already. It should be studied rather quickly to rule out the risk. I don't understand what they're waiting for :S.
 

IrishFella

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But what about actual trials? In the 20 years it's been on the market why hasn't this penile fibrosis been found in human studies if it's been found in rat studies?
 

Quantum Cat

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But there's a high chance it is like that, if it has been found in rats already. It should be studied rather quickly to rule out the risk. I don't understand what they're waiting for :S.

maybe there isn't the money, or the will to conduct any more extensive studies. I'd also like to know if there's any truth in the claims that finasteride can increase the risk of prostate cancer. Further unbiased rigorously scientific trials would definetely be a good thing.

But as Irishfella says, doctors have been prescribing Proscar to patients with enlarged prostates for two decades - you'd think red flags would have been raised years ago if finasteride was that potentially dangerous
 

Mew

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we have had to ban at least one Attorney on this site who repeatedly registers new names and makes sure to point *everyone* to that web site for "more information" on pursuing legal action.

... People think PFS Foundation is attorney-involved because Attorneys are pointing people there.

That's for letting me know, I had no idea this was occurring and am in fact surprised to hear it. If you check www.pfsfoundation.org, there is no mention of legal action or anything to do with lawsuits.

Therefore, just to be clear -- are you referring to www.pfsfoundation.org, or www.propeciahelp.com? Either way if you wouldn't mind PM'ing me the name of the firm that is posting these links, it would be appreciated.
 

IrishFella

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^^^

Habeas Corpus, Nigga What, Hair to learn, you admitted that you're an attorney, with zero experiences with finasteride. And how are my claims laughable? Vioxx was on the market 4 years I believe. Finasteride is on the market 20 years and we have a plethora of members who have been taking it for 5 plus years with no adverse effects.

And you're not friendly, you're a disgusting human being, evident through your quips at Quantum Cat. Nothing but passive aggressive scumbag. Kindly leave this forum because you offer nothing to it.

I'm sure you'll find some poor soul to take advantage of soon.
 

Fanjeera

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But what about actual trials? In the 20 years it's been on the market why hasn't this penile fibrosis been found in human studies if it's been found in rat studies?
Because you can't biopsy a human penis. You would need young male cadavers who took finasteride in their life. They're pretty hard to find. I think there aren't enough people complaining and thinking it's a big thing too.

maybe there isn't the money, or the will to conduct any more extensive studies. I'd also like to know if there's any truth in the claims that finasteride can increase the risk of prostate cancer. Further unbiased rigorously scientific trials would definetely be a good thing.

But as Irishfella says, doctors have been prescribing Proscar to patients with enlarged prostates for two decades - you'd think red flags would have been raised years ago if finasteride was that potentially dangerous
I doubt it can raise prostate cancer risk. Breast cancer perhaps yes. Are there any studies saying so? After all, isn't it used to fight prostate cancer?
 
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