What to add to regimen...

WS6-TA

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Hi,
i have been on nizoral/t-gel, and finasteride for a year now. I switched from 1mg finasteride daily to 0.5 due to sides. Havent seen any real regrowth but have maintained maybe lost a bit..I have been 2 weeks without finasteride.. did that ruin my whole year? and what would be the next product to add??(still saving minoxidil for thr last step)
 

WS6-TA

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finasteride aka finasteride is propecia.... anyways this should be moved to hairloss discussions...

opinions on fluridil?? need to read up on it...can anyone recomend a good article on it??
 

michael barry

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I keep wishing there would be a conclusive study on fluridil or another topical androgen receptor blocker. I much would rather use a topical andro blocker than systemically block alhpa-5 reductase from making DHT in the first place. Im still biting a propecia in half every day and I spray crinagen (topical DHT blocker), but I realize there are no before and afters with crinagens clinical data.

I keep thinking and maybe you agree that if the direct androgen theory is conclusively proven correct that perhaps science can just develop a good topical androgen receptor blocker, or, if androgen receptors arent necessary for hair growth, something that will literally damage the philosebaceous units androgen receptors altogether (although this may have to be done each new anagen phase and that would pose problems). I understand progesterone is used topically (keratin.com) and it competes with androgen receptors with DHT and is an alpha-5 reductase blocker also.

I personally want to add a growth stimulant, but do not want to use the dose-dependent minoxodil. THere is proanthocyanidrins in crinagen, but there is only one mouse study backing that up........I scalp excercise, eat flaxseeds, and take vitamins (B), few other things in my own regimine....waitin' for something better, just like you I imagine.
 

Bryan

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michael barry said:
I keep thinking and maybe you agree that if the direct androgen theory is conclusively proven correct that perhaps science can just develop a good topical androgen receptor blocker, or, if androgen receptors arent necessary for hair growth, something that will literally damage the philosebaceous units androgen receptors altogether (although this may have to be done each new anagen phase and that would pose problems).

New androgen receptors are produced continuously.

michael barry said:
I understand progesterone is used topically (keratin.com) and it competes with androgen receptors with DHT and is an alpha-5 reductase blocker also.

Progesterone inhibits 5a-reductase, but I don't recall ever seeing a claim that it's also an androgen receptor blocker. Do you have a link to where that claim is made on that site?

michael barry said:
I personally want to add a growth stimulant, but do not want to use the dose-dependent minoxodil. THere is proanthocyanidrins in crinagen, but there is only one mouse study backing that up......

You don't think that proanthocyanidins are dose-dependent?? :wink:

Bryan
 

michael barry

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Byran,
Pranthocyanidrins proboably havent been in use long enough to establish dose dependency. Propecia supposedly isnt.

I do know this, after about 5 years minoxodil users typically have to go to a higher potency of minoxodil because the lesser concoction has less and less effect. As one gets toward the 15 % formula, the side effects appear. Swollen feet, lower white blood cell count, scaling of the scalp which looks like god-awful dandruff. What happens when 15 percent isnt enough? If the user winds up putting enough on their heads, Im sure they will ingest enough to perhaps even have loniten-like side effects like hair growing on ears, on forehead, unibrow, more body hair.

Believe me, Ive been tempted to get on minoxidil cause I know it works, I used it in the early 90's but got off when propecia came out because the Doctor told me that I wouldnt lose any more hair with propecia (see why some of us dont think docs are necessarily the last word on health and medicine------if they arent keeping up with the latest studies, they only know what theyve been told which might have come from a pharmaceutical rep eager, willing, and able to exxagerate a drugs effectiveness and downplay its side effects {Merk=Viox.....how many Prozac users KNEW that it could cause hair loss?, etc.}.

Anyhoo, Ive seen homemade recipies for making proanthocyanidrins and that appeals to me also.......I guess Im cheap.

Do you have anytning in your regimine other than Proxiphen (thats stuff is high, but the before and after pics are good) that you feel youre having success with?
 

Bryan

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michael barry said:
Byran,
Pranthocyanidrins proboably havent been in use long enough to establish dose dependency.

Come on, Michael! You think you can keep reducing the dose of proanthocyanidins, while maintaining the same results? :wink:

michael barry said:
Propecia supposedly isnt.

OF COURSE finasteride is dose-dependent. Read the early "dose-ranging" study:

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/finasteride ... anging.htm

The point is that because of the way enzyme inhibitors work, they approach a "plateau" level with rapidly diminishing results from increasing doses. The dose-response curve at the Propecia level (1 mg/day) is RELATIVELY flat, but not PERFECTLY flat.

michael barry said:
I do know this, after about 5 years minoxodil users typically have to go to a higher potency of minoxodil because the lesser concoction has less and less effect.

The best evidence seems to indicate that that's not really a sign that the minoxidil is having "less and less effect", it's a sign that continued balding is OVERTAKING the effect of the minoxidil.

I've made a career of pointing out on these hairloss sites that minoxidil probably doesn't interfere with the fundamental balding process, it just provides an "offset" of growth. As balding continues to advance, the effects of minoxidil only APPEAR to decline, but that's not really the fault of minoxidil. At least, that's what the evidence seems to suggest, IMHO.

michael barry said:
Believe me, Ive been tempted to get on minoxidil cause I know it works, I used it in the early 90's but got off when propecia came out because the Doctor told me that I wouldnt lose any more hair with propecia.

In my opinion, the decision on whether or not to use topical minoxidil should be based on the answer to a very simple question: do you or do you not want an extra "offset" of growth, above and beyond what you would normally have without it (an "offset" which parallels the course of balding that you would otherwise have)? I hope that makes sense to you. There's been a fair amount of confusion over that simple concept in the past.

michael barry said:
Do you have anytning in your regimine other than Proxiphen (thats stuff is high, but the before and after pics are good) that you feel youre having success with?

In the past, I've experimented with numerous homemade topical concoctions. But at the present time, for various personal reasons, I'm barely using anything at all. A little Proxiphen occasionally, that's about it. I plan on getting back in the saddle again, before I lose any more hair...

Bryan
 

michael barry

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Bryan,
I see what you mean with the finasteride. I knew that it was just a little more effective at the proscar dosage. I bite a propecia tablet in half every day (.5 mg). However, taking 2 proscars, by law of diminishing returns proboably is hardly any more effective than taking 1 proscar.

I feel quite certain there is an optimum dosage of proanthocyanidrins, but it hasnt been shown that one has to take more and more over time yet. This is kinda what I meant about minoxidil. Even if its one having to take more because baldness is "catching up to it and overtaking its effects", one still has to take more and more and moves into the realm of side effects. Ive also read on a site called hairloss-research. something (forget the domain) that there is an observed phenomena of "minoxodil-dependent hair" where guys regrow hair with the stuff, but then stop and not only lose what they regrew, but have a massive shed and lose some hair they had. Docs say the guys other hair had become "dependent" on its rejuvanitve effect. Its scared me off to an extent.


My whole aim in fighting male pattern baldness was that Im hoping for the possibility of better treatments in the future just like the "mission statement" in the regimine and treatments section of this website advises. I know science is working on it, and if I can just keep what I got for a few more years and stave off fibrosis, maybe there will be hope for me.


Tom Hagerty, who started to bald at 19, but has a nice head of hair at 73, has been something of an inspiration to me. I have his CD and perform his scalp excercise twice daily. I also try to get a good amount of vitamin B complex like he advises, eat flaxseed poweder in oatmeal, take .5 mg of propecia, use the product Crianagen (in hopes of inhibiting both types of alpha-5 reductase in scalp and facial tissue + the effect of the proanthocyanidrins + the anti fungal and anti bacterial effect of the tea tree oil thats also in the crinagen, there is also zinc and niacin in it which gives the scalp a good blood rush). Ive been sleeping with a tobaggan on and wiping my head with an absorbent towel about twice a day in case Armando is right. I dont see how this could hurt as our pillows dont hurt our donor areas. Ive been experimenting with a few 2 minute inversions standing to improve lymphatic drainage in case Steven is correct. Ive read a study that indicated that bald men had 2.6 times less blood flow than non male pattern baldness men in which 100 something subjects were used. The Japanese believe this, I think they are the smartest people on earth (northern Asiatic IQ's are highest) and respect their opinions. I work for a Japanese company so I know the meaning of tedious tenacity, let me tell you). Im only shampooing every other day because Hagerty believes that overshampooing may cause a little subclinical inflammation of the scalp in certain sensitive folks, I shampoo with nizoral once a week. Am considering a little scalp massage to stretch collagen fibers a bit to fight fibrosis and also considering a little emu oil as Ive heard its really good at staving off fibrosis. I scalp excersise for the hopes that Im promoting angiogenesis. Hagerty's site is full of info about this phenomenon and his belief that the SE promotes it. Im hoping to keep my microcapillaries alive up there, and fill em' with blood a couple of times a day naturally as if there is some great genetic therapy available in a few years, I dont want to have locked myself out of it by having a head full of fibrosis. This is pretty much what I do right now, other than manual stuff its just Propecia., crinagen, nizoral, flaxseeds, vitamin intake. Ive got a laser comb, but proboably only use the thing once a week. Kevin McElewe of Keratin.com thinks that long term that the lasers might hurt dermal papilla cells so this is a risk I suppose. Am also considering caffeine topically if Alpecin will come through with a little proof about their concoction.
 

Bryan

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michael barry said:
Bryan,
I see what you mean with the finasteride. I knew that it was just a little more effective at the proscar dosage. I bite a propecia tablet in half every day (.5 mg). However, taking 2 proscars, by law of diminishing returns proboably is hardly any more effective than taking 1 proscar.

Exactly.

michael barry said:
I feel quite certain there is an optimum dosage of proanthocyanidrins, but it hasnt been shown that one has to take more and more over time yet. This is kinda what I meant about minoxidil.

If proanthocyanidins are growth stimulants somewhere along the same lines as minoxidil and similarly don't interfere with the balding process, then their characteristics are going to be very similar to minoxidil.

michael barry said:
Even if its one having to take more because baldness is "catching up to it and overtaking its effects", one still has to take more and more and moves into the realm of side effects.

Michael, you're not hearing what I'm saying. Listen to me carefully: DO NOT USE MINOXIDIL IN AN ATTEMPT TO STOP YOUR HAIRLOSS. That's not what it's for. To stop the balding process and hang on to your hair, use something that has a reasonable chance of doing that, like one of the antiandrogenic approaches (Propecia, spironolactone, fluridil, RU58841, etc.).

Once you've stopped the balding process with something else, THEN you can use topical minoxidil (if you wish) to stimulate some extra growth. You won't have to keep increasing the dose, because you've got your basic loss already stabilized.

You've got to understand the purpose and function of each component of a complete hairloss regimen. Don't blame minoxidil for not doing something that it never really was capable of doing.

michael barry said:
Ive also read on a site called hairloss-research. something (forget the domain) that there is an observed phenomena of "minoxodil-dependent hair" where guys regrow hair with the stuff, but then stop and not only lose what they regrew, but have a massive shed and lose some hair they had. Docs say the guys other hair had become "dependent" on its rejuvanitve effect. Its scared me off to an extent.

First of all, the term "minoxidil-dependent hair" is usually reserved for a somewhat different phenomenon than what you describe: hair that's regrown with minoxidil is frequently incapable of being MAINTAINED with finasteride, if you rashly decide to stop using the minoxidil. Many people do that, thinking that the Propecia they're taking will stop the loss of the minoxidil-grown hair. They are frequently mistaken about that.

Second of all, the best available evidence indicates that when you stop using topical minoxidil, you DO lose even more hair than what you started with (on average), but that effect is only TEMPORARY. After about 6 months, average haircounts and hairweights rebound back to where they would have been, had you never used minoxidil at all.

Bryan
 

michael barry

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Interesting stuff Byran.

The RU588....and fluridil available by dermatologists? I dont even think my derm would have heard of those to be honest. Nice Doctor, but isnt read up on this stuff at all
 

Old Baldy

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Michael: You've got to drive it into your mind that regrowth agents are dose dependent and something you will have to use consistently. That's just the way it is.

You can "mix" your treatments up but regrowth agents are dose dependent and must be used consistently. Just like you need vitamins everyday, you need regrowth agents everyday. (And you need a certain AMOUNT of vitamins everyday! :) )
 

michael barry

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Old Baldy,
Ive seen some posters claim they make their own minoxodil on these forums. I know its 60% alchohol, propyne glychol (to help it not evaportate quickly) and minoxidil.........

If I ever fooled with minoxidil, I'd rather make it myself. Ive thought about risking 2% minoxidil becasue Im hoping science will have a real in-effect cure for baldness in the next 7-10 years whether it be cloning, some gene-therapy that keeps keratinocytes churnin', something that tricks the philosebaceous units, whatever. I know its being worked on and have given it some thought. I hated the dry, flaky scalp that came with minoxidil however. Ive thought that the tea tree oil thats in crinagen might sooth that. (Note: the tea tree oil makes your scalp look like scalp skin and not forehead skin and really does sooth it.................not pink or inflamed up there at all anymore).
 

Old Baldy

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Oh, I didn't realize you had bad reactions to minoxidil. When I had a bad reaction to Folligen initially, I read up on topical herbal and oil treatments. They worked well and I no longer have any problems with topical medications. (Look into anti-oxidants to add to your homemade scalp health topicals also.)

In fact, once you've improved your scalp health, Folligen is supposed to improve it even more. Same for all those metal type of peptides in general.

Well, to be honest, I still have a little stinging now and then but it has been reduced DRAMATICALLY (i.e., to the point of not being a problem).

It's time for you to seriously look into topicals that improve your scalp health IMHO. There are ALOT of things you can use.
 

Boru

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michael barry said:
Bryan,
I see what you mean with the finasteride. I knew that it was just a little more effective at the proscar dosage. I bite a propecia tablet in half every day (.5 mg). However, taking 2 proscars, by law of diminishing returns proboably is hardly any more effective than taking 1 proscar.

I feel quite certain there is an optimum dosage of proanthocyanidrins, but it hasnt been shown that one has to take more and more over time yet. This is kinda what I meant about minoxidil. Even if its one having to take more because baldness is "catching up to it and overtaking its effects", one still has to take more and more and moves into the realm of side effects. Ive also read on a site called hairloss-research. something (forget the domain) that there is an observed phenomena of "minoxodil-dependent hair" where guys regrow hair with the stuff, but then stop and not only lose what they regrew, but have a massive shed and lose some hair they had. Docs say the guys other hair had become "dependent" on its rejuvanitve effect. Its scared me off to an extent.


My whole aim in fighting male pattern baldness was that Im hoping for the possibility of better treatments in the future just like the "mission statement" in the regimine and treatments section of this website advises. I know science is working on it, and if I can just keep what I got for a few more years and stave off fibrosis, maybe there will be hope for me.


Tom Hagerty, who started to bald at 19, but has a nice head of hair at 73, has been something of an inspiration to me. I have his CD and perform his scalp excercise twice daily. I also try to get a good amount of vitamin B complex like he advises, eat flaxseed poweder in oatmeal, take .5 mg of propecia, use the product Crianagen (in hopes of inhibiting both types of alpha-5 reductase in scalp and facial tissue + the effect of the proanthocyanidrins + the anti fungal and anti bacterial effect of the tea tree oil thats also in the crinagen, there is also zinc and niacin in it which gives the scalp a good blood rush). Ive been sleeping with a tobaggan on and wiping my head with an absorbent towel about twice a day in case Armando is right. I dont see how this could hurt as our pillows dont hurt our donor areas. Ive been experimenting with a few 2 minute inversions standing to improve lymphatic drainage in case Steven is correct. Ive read a study that indicated that bald men had 2.6 times less blood flow than non male pattern baldness men in which 100 something subjects were used. The Japanese believe this, I think they are the smartest people on earth (northern Asiatic IQ's are highest) and respect their opinions. I work for a Japanese company so I know the meaning of tedious tenacity, let me tell you). Im only shampooing every other day because Hagerty believes that overshampooing may cause a little subclinical inflammation of the scalp in certain sensitive folks, I shampoo with nizoral once a week. Am considering a little scalp massage to stretch collagen fibers a bit to fight fibrosis and also considering a little emu oil as Ive heard its really good at staving off fibrosis. I scalp excersise for the hopes that Im promoting angiogenesis. Hagerty's site is full of info about this phenomenon and his belief that the SE promotes it. Im hoping to keep my microcapillaries alive up there, and fill em' with blood a couple of times a day naturally as if there is some great genetic therapy available in a few years, I dont want to have locked myself out of it by having a head full of fibrosis. This is pretty much what I do right now, other than manual stuff its just Propecia., crinagen, nizoral, flaxseeds, vitamin intake. Ive got a laser comb, but proboably only use the thing once a week. Kevin McElewe of Keratin.com thinks that long term that the lasers might hurt dermal papilla cells so this is a risk I suppose. Am also considering caffeine topically if Alpecin will come through with a little proof about their concoction.

After buying a book on the subject in Belfast I was doing these scalp exercises 20 years ago, 15 years before Tom published his book, which contains very similar illustarations. He hasn't answered me on this point.
This isn't his idea excusively, he is selling an old idea like it is original.
Scalp exercises are part of the solution, however the total solution is much more complex, and so far, I seem to be the only one who really has found the secret. I am developing links with dedicated organisations to patent my concept.
Boru
 
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