WHAT ANTIANDROGEN DO YOU THINK TAKES THE CAKE?

WHAT ANTIANDROGEN DO YOU THINK TAKES THE CAKE?


  • Total voters
    73

kalbo

Established Member
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For me, it's definitely finasteride. Wish I could say dutasteride but that stuff ruined my hair.
 

kento

Established Member
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13
Simple question about RU

Does RU can be good replacement for finasteride?
I've read some RU user reporting that they got great results in the first months then they drooped?
 

Jack

Member
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RU seems quite popular in this poll , and it's a good anti androgon on paper but are there any large studys other than on hamsters or apes that prove it's effectiveness on humans?
I was always considering using it based on the hype , but there aren't enough positive testimonals on it plus the company selling it doesn't look very reputable.
 

Bryan

Senior Member
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I don't think there's ever been a published study which used RU58841 on humans.
 

Jack

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Bryan said:
I don't think there's ever been a published study which used RU58841 on humans.

Thanks , for now i'm going to decide on spironolactone for best topical anti androgen - simply because it's the only one which can be aquired easily or even made yourself. (and doesn't get absorbed much unlike flutamide , finasteride , dutasteride , etc..).

As for internal I've voted for dutasteride simply because it's the only one i've used and i'm not sure how well finasteride compares to it for me personally . In a couple of months i will post my results and decide if I stay on it . For now it's just some crown thickening , hairline no effect what so ever - (almost 10 months in)

And Dr.Proctor , you're one of the few people on these forums who often talks about reflex hyperandrogenity and that it plays an effect even for finasteride users . I am curious where you got that opinion from , do your patients often show symphtons of it ? Or do you have many finasteride non responders and therefore you believe it must be linked to hyperandrogenity because there's no other explanation ? I am really just a layman , but have researchers taken scalp samples from finasteride users and examiend them and found increased androgen receptors in follicles?
I ask because i haven't seen any evidence for this phenomen in studys and i consider the often quoted 83 % response rate of the phase 3 finasteride studys quite spectacular , but what you write really DOES scare me sometimes.
 

pproctor

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Jack said:
And Dr.Proctor , you're one of the few people on these forums who often talks about reflex hyperandrogenity and that it plays an effect even for finasteride users . I am curious where you got that opinion from , do your patients often show symphtons of it ? Or do you have many finasteride non responders and therefore you believe it must be linked to hyperandrogenity because there's no other explanation ? I am really just a layman , but have researchers taken scalp samples from finasteride users and examiend them and found increased androgen receptors in follicles?
I ask because i haven't seen any evidence for this phenomen in studys and i consider the often quoted 83 % response rate of the phase 3 finasteride studys quite spectacular , but what you write really DOES scare me sometimes.

1) Clinical reflex hyperandrogenicity with (e.g.) increased libido, skin oiliness, acne, etc. on finasteride seems rare, though there was a case or two reported in the trials (in retrospect).

2) Reflex hyperandrogenicity happens with all antiandrogens and to some extent with essentially all patients. In fact, it is the reason prostate cancer patients on strong antiandrogens such as flutamide get castrated. Otherwise, the drug quickly stops working.

3) It also happens to patients on finasteride, who show roughly a 14% or so increase in testosterone. IIRC, a rougly doubling of androgen receptors is also seen, though I do not have time at the moment to get the papers.

Peter H Proctor, PhD,MD
 

Drummeur

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reflex hyperandrogenicity do fall more hairs ?

Is the Acne is located in an particular area . ex: hair , beard ?

or can be grow up more hair on body ?
 

Nicky

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I did a Google search on side effects of Finasteride and I ended up that there are lots of guys that gave up finasteride for this reason(reflex hyperandrogenicity)... The only info I could find, that makes any sense, was on Dr. Proctors site:


Question:
I had a bad reaction to Propecia, including severe shedding (especially in the front) that commenced within a few days of starting Propecia, and stopped within a few days of stopping Propecia. I'm assuming this is Reflex Hyperandrogenicity (let's call it R.H.).

Could it be that I have a particularly low tolerance to the effects of Propecia, and that if I take less (say perhaps 1/4 of a pill per day, or every couple of days) that I'll avoid the R.H.

I suppose to word it another way, is the R.H. caused by the inhibition of just too much 5ar, making it so if I inhibit less, I may avoid it while still getting the benefits of Propecia ?

Dr Proctor Answers:
Shedding that occurs before about 2-4 months after starting a treatment was of hair that was already in the loss phase when you started. That is, such hair shedding is just coincidental or due to early fallout of loss-phase hair as follicles come out of dormancy under the influence of a hair-growth-stimulator. This hair was about to fall out anyway.

Not that hair loss due to reflex hyperandrogenicity doesn't occasionally happen with Finasteride. However, Finasteride (Propecia) differentially "protects" hair follicles. Thus, enough reflex hyproandrogenicity to exacerbate balding is very likely to be associated with other hyperandrogenic symptoms such as increased libido, skin oiliness, etc. In the absence of these, I consider it unlikely. So you can rest reasonably easily. I hope....

Peter H Proctor, PhD, MD


Question:
What exactly is reflex hyperandrogenicity and what causes it? Is it when the androgen receptors become more sensitive to DHT or is it an increase in overall testosterone that negatively impacts the follicles. Also, should a topical antiandrogen counter this effect?

Dr Proctor Answers:
Reflex hyperandrogenicity is caused by a combination of increased testosterone and increased tissue sensitivity to male sex hormones ( androgens ). The latter is cause at least partially by an increase in the numbers of androgen receptors. Whether the receptors also get more sensitive is not clear, but seems likely.

Reflex hyperandrogenicity is proportional to the strength of an antiandrogen. It limits the use of antiandrogens in (e.g.) treatment of prostate cancer and is why most such patients get castrated.

Because the action of Finasteride is mostly limited to tissues where type-2 5-AR is the important source of androgenic activity, it elicits less reflex hyperandrogenicity than other antiandrogens when used to treat hair loss or prostate enlargement. So this is usually not limiting in hair loss-treatment, at least in the short run. It may even help minimize side-effects such as libido decrease during the use iof finasteride for hair loss. Whether this is also true for Dutasteride ( which blocks both type-1 and type-2 5 Alphareductases ) is not clear yet. And yes, topical antiandrogens such as spironolactone, which do not elicit the increase in testosterone, are likely helpful.

Peter H Proctor, PhD, MD
 

pproctor

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finfighter said:
DR. Proctor, I have been on finasteride for six months and I have had a moderatly increased sex drive, and sometimes i notice oily skin should I be concerned?

I Donno. But wildly-guessing--- Finasteride diminishes the effects of the extra testosterone, etc. specifically on the hair follicle and the prostate, while not diminishing it much if any on other tissues. Again, I suspect that this explains at least part of the relative lack of antiandrogenic side-effects with finasteride. In theory, this means that you can have clinically-evident reflex hyperandrogenicity and still get the therapeutic effects of finasteride.

Still, there are some persons on finasteride reporting exacerbation of hair loss accompanying hyperandrogenic symptoms. OTOH, this could just be coincidental. But hopefully, because of this differential "protection", finasteride is probably not going to make hair loss worse without also producing other symptoms of reflex hyperandrogenicity.

Interestingly, reflex hyperandrogenicity has been related to the somewhat higher rate of progression of the last precancerous stage of prostate cancer to frank prostate cancer in patients receiving finasteride. BTW, don't panic, overall, finasteride seems to significantly decrease the incidence of prostate cancer.

Peter H. Proctor, PhD,MD
 

Dave001

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Personally, I use a combination of topical spironolactone and topical finasteride (low concentration).

Claims that topical finasteride is readily absorbed into systemic circulation in humans is weakly supported at best (though obviously, vehicle is a factor), and I've posted a critique of the evidence in the past. The proper selection of vehicle and drug concentration should allow a predominately localized effect.

Buy the pills from squaremeds.com (an Indian pharmacy) and make your own. (Anyone know of an even cheaper source? Let us know.) Throw in some minoxidil (get the 5% solution from Costco -- not the foam), and you've got yourself the most cost-effective topical anti-balding therapy IMO.

Unfortunately, topical antiandrogen therapy should be regarded as highly experimental at this time. It should be effective in principle, but adequate delivery can't safely be assumed without thorough testing in humans.

(I should add that I use finasteride topically not because I think it's more effective that way -- who knows? -- but because I don't want to inhibit 5alpha-reductase systemically.)
 

JWM

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Haven't seen you in awhile, Dave.

How do you prepare your topical spironolactone/finasteride topical. And why do you suggest the liquid minoxidil over the foam?
 

Old Baldy

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Empire said:
Please only vote for the selection that has either
A. Worked for you
B. Provided so much study and research (that you've thoroughly) read to put you beyond reasonable doubt would be the best.

After voting, please leave your explanation to why you voted your option.

None of them work all that great for me but I started when I was 51 years old. Way TOO late in the ballgame IMHO. I'd say finasteride works as well (i.e., for me) as any but I've never tried RU58841.

My guess is dutasteride would work the best for most people but don't expect it to grow back hairs that have been minaturized for a long period of time.

Guys have been saying for YEARS that the earlier you start treatment, the greater possibility of regrowth. I started too late for much of my scalp but did get some regrowth. Maintenance was good though.

FWIW, I use finasteride three days a week and homemade spironolactone cream with other stuff in it. I'd say I use spironolactone. about 6 times a week, one time each of those 6 days. Like I said, maintenance has been good, maybe even very good.

I tried Dave's finasteride in cream method for quite some time but get better results with oral finasteride three times a week. (The hairs seem to be more cosmetically acceptable and maybe a little more regrowth for me with oral finasteride.)

If you can find a study that answers "B" in your question I'd be interested in reading it. Based on your research, what do YOU think is the best?
 

patagonia

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Old Baldy said:
Empire said:
Please only vote for the selection that has either
A. Worked for you
B. Provided so much study and research (that you've thoroughly) read to put you beyond reasonable doubt would be the best.

After voting, please leave your explanation to why you voted your option.

None of them work all that great for me but I started when I was 51 years old. Way TOO late in the ballgame IMHO. I'd say finasteride works as well (i.e., for me) as any but I've never tried RU58841.

My guess is dutasteride would work the best for most people but don't expect it to grow back hairs that have been minaturized for a long period of time.

Guys have been saying for YEARS that the earlier you start treatment, the greater possibility of regrowth. I started too late for much of my scalp but did get some regrowth. Maintenance was good though.

FWIW, I use finasteride three days a week and homemade spironolactone cream with other stuff in it. I'd say I use spironolactone. about 6 times a week, one time each of those 6 days. Like I said, maintenance has been good, maybe even very good.

I tried Dave's finasteride in cream method for quite some time but get better results with oral finasteride three times a week. (The hairs seem to be more cosmetically acceptable and maybe a little more regrowth for me with oral finasteride.)

If you can find a study that answers "B" in your question I'd be interested in reading it. Based on your research, what do YOU think is the best?


OB,

are you still using Bayberry extract?

I read you where using a mix of different oils and extracts some time ago...
what is your current opinion on essential oils and the antiandrogenic properties some of them have (lavender, TTO, rosehips)... do you use them?

cheers :)
 

Old Baldy

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Yes, I still use bayberry extract a few times a week. I still use alot of stuff but just not as often as I used to.

My homemade cream with spironolactone. and other stuff includes some essential oils. I still have no idea if the other stuff is helping but it certainly has never hurt IMHO.
 

rwhairlosstalk

Experienced Member
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Has anyone used lavender oil, Peppermint Oil or Tea Tree Oil or any other essential oil with any reduction in shed or regrowth? Oh by the way, I'm a girl :)
 

Ende

Senior Member
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Considering the options on the list, I'll vote for Kraemer & Bohn's 5% RU58841 solution. It's more effective and safer than Propecia. However, one of RU58841's metabolites may still accumulate and cause systemic side effects.
 

israelite

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Enden said:
Considering the options on the list, I'll vote for Kraemer & Bohn's 5% RU58841 solution. It's more effective and safer than Propecia. However, one of RU58841's metabolites may still accumulate and cause systemic side effects.

Finasteride if you have lost hair density. topical antiandrogen such as cb, myistate rum, asc j9 are good for hairline growth !
 

abcdefg

Senior Member
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I dont get how RU is not even a real treatment but its on the list. You may as well list out 100 other theoretical things that could help with hair loss because RU is not a proven treatment right now since its not really available or well studied in comparison to say propecia.
 

abcdefg

Senior Member
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Its well studied as in it has the double blind 5 year study and optimal dosage graphs like propecia has? If it does it seems they have a lot of the work for FDA approval already done.
 
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