Dismiss Notice
Tsuji / Riken / Organ Tech Interview: Published.

Soy Isoflavones and Green tea TOGETHER severely reduce DHT

Discussion in 'New Research, Studies, and Technologies' started by michael barry, Dec 4, 2008.

  1. michael barry

    michael barry Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    1,809
    Likes Received:
    2
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/2/516




    Here is the chart:
    http://jn.nutrition.org/content/vol133/ ... 69002.jpeg


    If you look at serum DHT (picograms per liter), when Soy and Green tea were both given to the mice (test groups of four mice), the levels of DHT fell at least 80% in comparison to the control (ab) group. Black tea reduced the serum DHT by 72% in the mice.


    However, I dont know the exact distribution of type one and type two alpha five reductase for mice. Perhaps type one is the dominant form in mice? If so, this might not be as much help for us as one would hope.


    If you look at the total testosterone levels............black tea raised the levels by 34% (good), but the soy/green tea cut them in half in the mice. This would be a "rough" side effect if it translated to men. Side effects would be ......................pretty marked.



    Prostate tumor weight and serum PSA levels were lowered dramatically with both soy/green tea combinations and especially soy/black tea combinations, as well as black tea by itself . http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/2/516/F1





    ANYBODY GOT ANY IDEA OF WHAT THE ALPHA REDUCTASE DISTRIBUTION IS IN MICE? IS TYPE ONE PREDOMINANT IN THESE CREATURES?
     
  2. monitoradiation

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    272
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    That's interesting; I'm assuming that the soy isoflavones, black tea, green tea are given orally and not topically (haha I'm imagining someone dumping critters into a tub of green tea bath)

    Sorry I'm not experienced with reading these charts; what do the a, and ab mean over the bars?

    So if I took soy isoflavone and GTE and drink black tea... I would get massive sides, possibly? Pity they didn't have a group that took all three; considering GT raised serum testosterone but in conjunction with soy reduced it by 50% while soy+BT did nothing... I'd be interested to know what happens if the mice took all three together.

    Hm. I was thinking before that I'm gonna go buy some soy isoflavone pills and some GTE; plus I love black tea. Maybe if i took all three for awhile I would reap some benefits...

    As a side note I'm pretty sure mice have 5AR-1, since I just ran a quicksearch on it and there were several studies involving 5AR-1; but a search for 5AR-2 didn't turn up much. So I'm assuming (for now) that 5AR-1 is the predominant form in mice. So going on this, if someone took soy+GTE+BT as well as fin I'm thinking it'll be similar to taking dut...
     
  3. Blondilocks

    Blondilocks Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dislikes Received:
    0
  4. michael barry

    michael barry Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    1,809
    Likes Received:
    2
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Id be wary, very wary of MPB-research.org


    They have a tendency to not list links to studies that back their claims.



    Their business model is this: Tell you this or that herb is good for baldness, and then tell you they have a buyer's club or some sort of buying arrangement that will get you to buy that herb there at some discount.


    In mice, taking both green tea and soy lowered DHT AND TESTOSTERONE drammatically. If those results transferred to men, and the type of DHT inhibited was type-2 alpha five reductase DHT, then it would certainly be helpful for baldness.



    However, Green tea ALONE led to a 164% INCREASE in DHT levels in mice. That doesn't sound so appealing does it. Maybe its because a percentage of the receptors were inhibited with green tea usage, thus less dht could bind, making it flow around in serum. Green tea given to mice increase hair growth in them in 33% of subjects in one study I read on pub med. Its complicated how these things might work, and sometimes work ---together--- to produce an effect. Green tea and soy TOGETHER certainly did do a number on mouse DHT levels though.


    Black tea lowered serum DHT in mice by 72%, but I dont know the distribution of mouse-alpha five reductase. It could be that type 1 alpha five reductase is much more prevalent in these animals..................and that black tea inhibits that time of alpha five reductase very well, but not inhibit the type 2 variety of the enzyme that we need.




    I wish I knew. I really wouldn't want to DECREASE my T-levels though. That would negatively effect a guy's quality of life.




    The tests with the mice (four mice per group-----given tea to drink, green tea to drink, green tea/soy in their drink and chow, given black tea/soy in their drink and chow) were INTERNAL applications. They werent "put on" the little creatures backs or anything.
     
  5. banco

    banco Junior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2008
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    There's some research to suggest that soy has an estrogenic effect. Could that have any connection to why soy would reduce DHT?
     
  6. michael barry

    michael barry Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    1,809
    Likes Received:
    2
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    1: J Nutr. 2005 Mar;135(3):584-91. Links
    Soy protein isolates of varying isoflavone content exert minor effects on serum reproductive hormones in healthy young men.Dillingham BL, McVeigh BL, Lampe JW, Duncan AM.
    Department of Human Biology and Nutritional Sciences, University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario N1G 2W1, Canada.

    Inverse associations between soy and prostate cancer and the contribution of hormones to prostate cancer prompted the current study to determine whether soy protein could alter serum hormones in men. Thirty-five men consumed milk protein isolate (MPI), low-isoflavone soy protein isolate (SPI) (low-iso SPI; 1.64 +/- 0.19 mg isoflavones/d), and high-iso SPI (61.7 +/- 7.35 mg isoflavones/d) for 57 days each in a randomized crossover design. Twenty-four-hour urine samples indicated that urinary isoflavones were significantly increased by the high-iso SPI relative to the low-iso SPI and MPI. Serum collected on d 1, 29, and 57 of each treatment revealed that dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and DHT/testosterone were significantly decreased by the low-iso SPI [9.4% (P = 0.036) and 9.0% (P = 0.004), respectively] and the high-iso SPI [15% (P = 0.047) and 14% (P = 0.013), respectively], compared with the MPI at d 57. Other significant effects included a decrease in testosterone by the low-iso SPI relative to the MPI (P = 0.023) and high-iso SPI (P = 0.020) at d 29; an increase in dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate by the low-iso SPI relative to the MPI at d 29 (P = 0.001) and relative to the MPI (P = 0.0003) and high-iso SPI (P = 0.005) at d 57; and increases in estradiol and estrone by the low-iso SPI relative to the MPI at d 57 (P = 0.010 and P = 0.005, respectively). In conclusion, soy protein, regardless of isoflavone content, decreased DHT and DHT/testosterone with minor effects on other hormones, providing evidence for some effects of soy protein on hormones. The relevance of the magnitude of these effects to future prostate cancer risk requires further investigation.





    15% of so reductions in DHT at the high end with soy that has a healthy amount of isoflavones. It also reduced testosterone by about the same amount---14%. However finasteride lowers DHT by about 65% to 70% with a slight INCREASE in testosterone.



    I dont want to decrease my testosterone personally.
     
  7. monitoradiation

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    272
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    If I were to look at the results concerning only GT and Soy, it'd be this.

    GT alone raised T and DHT;
    Soy alone only lowered DHT;

    GT + soy lowered both T and DHT.

    Now in terms of how they work synergistically that is confusing; if GT alone raised T and soy doesn't affect T, I would think that T should only rise with GT+soy. But it isn't so; as well, the DHT lowered much more with soy+GT than would be expected. I don't know what to make of this.

    If we were simply looking to reduce serum levels of DHT, looks like black tea is a viable path to go; it reduced DHT as much as soy+GT while slightly increasing T, which sounds to me like inhibiting 5AR activity. But if we apply the MB's hypothesis that receptors were inhibited with GT, leading to available DHT in serum, then we might also hypothesize that BT is increasing the sensitivity of the receptors or acting as an catalyst. That's bad news. This is confusing.

    Are there studies that measure the rate/amount of DHT binding to receptors? With that information shouldn't we have a better understanding of the actual affect of these things on hair?
     
  8. Petchsky

    Petchsky Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2004
    Messages:
    2,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Not forgetting that this test is on mice though, not a human body...it could very well have a different effect. If it lowers testosterone then i'm definitely not interested, side effect city. I was under the impression that green tea is good for hairloss? but if lowers T, then not so.
     
  9. monitoradiation

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    272
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Petch, if it lowers T, then it IS good for hairloss, no? It's just that the sides that come with it is probably bad... But what're sides from low testosterone? Low muscle mass?

    And I read on another thread that people were unwilling to take GTE internally for fear of raising their estrogen levels, leading to gyno risk... What the heck.

    Plus, people drink GT and BT and eat tofu all the time... Us Asians do it like daily. (well, not me. but I was thinking of starting to)

    Could be why there're so many Asian guys who are effeminate... (jokes)

    Edit: as a side note, why don't these studies also do hair density and diameter counts in conjunction with DHT and T levels? It would make it a whole lot easier to assess implications to hair growth... But then again, that might not be what the study is for. But still T__T think of us thinners.
     
  10. Petchsky

    Petchsky Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2004
    Messages:
    2,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    The worry about lowering T is sexual side effects, especially if you are already taking proscar.

    I don't think estrogen can harm your hair, but it is not good for your health to have high estrogen for a prolonged period of time.

    I'm not taking this study to seriously though as it's on mice. :)
     
  11. monitoradiation

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    272
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Hmm. Maybe they can take immunosuppressed mice like the ones Follica was studying, suture a patch of human skin on their backs like they did, and run these tests...
     
  12. michael barry

    michael barry Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    1,809
    Likes Received:
    2
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Green tea raises globulin levels (Sex-Hormone-BINDING-globulin) which carries around testosterone in your blood in an "unusable" form so it cannot bind or be transformed into DHT by alpha five reductase. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9507508


    That is one way that it might have the effect it does with soy.


    Soy also ups globulin, and apparently decreases T production period by some other mechanism. If you decrease T-production by 15%, there probably is going to be less DHT production as a consequence.




    This is PUBMED on green tea and rodent hair growth:

    J Natl Med Assoc. 2005 Jun;97(6):816-8.Related Articles, Links
    The effects of tea polyphenolic compounds on hair loss among rodents.

    Esfandiari A, Kelley P.

    Department of Otolaryngology, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles, CA 90059, USA. adesfand@cdrewu.edu

    The objective of this study was to examine the effects of polyphenolic compounds, present in noncommercially available green tea, on hair loss among rodents. In an experimental study, we randomly assigned 60 female Balb/black mice, which had developed spontaneous hair loss on the head, neck and dorsal areas into two equal groups; A (experimental) and B (control). Group A received 50% fraction of polyphenol extract from dehydrated green tea in their drinking water for six months. Group B received regular drinking water. Both groups were fed regular rodent diets (Purina Rodent Chow 5001) and housed individually in polycarbonate cages. The results showed that 33% of the mice in experimental Group A, who received polyphenol extract in their drinking water, had significant hair regrowth during six months of treatment (p = 0.014). No hair growth was observed among mice in the control group, which received regular water.





    Green tea and Human hair growth in hairs cultivated in test tubes:

    Phytomedicine. 2007 Aug;14(7-8):551-5. Epub 2006 Nov 7. Links
    Human hair growth enhancement in vitro by green tea epigallocatechin-3-gallate (EGCG).Kwon OS, Han JH, Yoo HG, Chung JH, Cho KH, Eun HC, Kim KH.
    Department of Dermatology, Seoul National University College of Medicine, Laboratory of Cutaneous Aging and Hair Research, Seoul National University Hospital, Institute of Dermatological Science, Seoul National University, 110-744 Seoul, Republic of Korea.

    Green tea is a popular worldwide beverage, and its potential beneficial effects such as anti-cancer and anti-oxidant properties are believed to be mediated by epigallocatechin-3-gallate (EGCG), a major constituent of polyphenols. Recently, it was reported that EGCG might be useful in the prevention or treatment of androgenetic alopecia by selectively inhibiting 5alpha-reductase activity. However, no report has been issued to date on the effect of EGCG on human hair growth. This study was undertaken to measure the effect of EGCG on hair growth in vitro and to investigate its effect on human dermal papilla cells (DPCs) in vivo and in vitro. EGCG promoted hair growth in hair follicles ex vivo culture and the proliferation of cultured DPCs. The growth stimulation of DPCs by EGCG in vitro may be mediated through the upregulations of phosphorylated Erk and Akt and by an increase in the ratio of Bcl-2/Bax ratio. Similar results were also obtained in in vivo dermal papillae of human scalps. Thus, we suggest that EGCG stimulates human hair growth through these dual proliferative and anti-apoptotic effects on DPCs.

    PMID: 17092697 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]






    Mice, rats, humans, and apes have both type one and type two alpha five reductase....................but the distribution might be different as far as who has the most type one or the most type two, etc.
     
  13. SoThatsLife

    SoThatsLife Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2007
    Messages:
    326
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Mr B, what do you think of a soy/green tea topical. It seems that combined they are very effective. To bad none of these topicals exist at the presents.
     
  14. monitoradiation

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    272
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    I just bought some soy isoflavone and GTE today; the soy capsules contain ~25mg Genisteine and ~20mg Daidzine and ~5 glycitine;

    the GTE capsules contain ~240mg polyphenols and 120mg EGCg.

    Gonna take them for a few days in conjunction with fin and maybe even black tea while jogging for 1 hour a day to reduce chances of gyno. If I don't get sides, I'll consider myself lucky.

    Edit: MB, care to make any conjectures you could make with regards to the dosage? Too high, too low, or are these dosages in in the goldilocks zone? Of course, this is gonna be a little test, haha. Guinea pig time!
     
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Well as always, no one knows for sure if green tea is good for the hair or not, sigh, going round in circles here.
     
  16. DHTHater

    DHTHater Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2009
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    1
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Before you get carried away swearing off Soy, you all may need to take a look at this study which showed people exercising had no loss of testosterone or increase in estrogen when taking up to 50 mg of soy protein daily (see conclusion at bottom).

    [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1997115/[/url]


    Effect of protein source and resistance training on body composition and sex hormones

    Douglas Kalman,corresponding author1 Samantha Feldman,1 Michele Martinez,1 Diane R Krieger,1 and Mark J Tallon1
    1Miami Research Associates, Nutrition/Endocrinology Division, Miami, Florida, USA
    corresponding authorCorresponding author.
    Douglas Kalman, Samantha Feldman, Michele Martinez, Diane R Krieger, Mark J Tallon.

    Received June 14, 2007; Accepted July 23, 2007.
    This is an Open Access article distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution License (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0), which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original work is properly cited.
    Small right arrow pointing to: This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.

    Abstract
    Background
    Evidence suggests an inverse relationship between soy protein intake and serum concentrations of male sex hormones. Anecdotal evidence indicates that these alterations in serum sex hormones may attenuate changes in lean body mass following resistance training. However, little empirical data exists regarding the effects of soy and milk-based proteins on circulating androgens and exercise induced body composition changes.

    Methods
    For 12 weeks 20 subjects were supplemented with 50 g per day of one of four different protein sources (Soy concentrate; Soy isolate; Soy isolate and whey blend, and Whey blend only) in combination with a resistance-training program. Body composition, testosterone, estradiol and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) were measured at baseline and week 12.

    Results
    Protein supplementation resulted in a significant increase in lean body mass independent of protein source (0.5 ± 1.1 and 0.9 ± 1.4 kg, p = 0.006, p = 0.007). No significant differences were observed between groups for total and free testosterone, SHBG, percentage body fat, BMI or body weight. The Testosterone/Estradiol ratio increased across all groups (+13.4, p = 0.005) and estradiol decreased (p = 0.002). Within group analysis showed significant increases in the Testosterone/Estradiol ratio in soy isolate + whey blend group (+16.3, p = 0.030). Estradiol was significantly lower in the whey blend group (-9.1 ± 8.7 pg/ml, p = 0.033).

    Conclusion
    This investigation shows that 12 week supplementation with soy protein does not decrease serum testosterone or inhibit lean body mass changes in subjects engaged in a resistance exercise program.
     
  17. antman

    antman Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2012
    Messages:
    359
    Likes Received:
    16
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Iso?avone-Rich Soy Protein Isolate Suppresses Androgen Receptor Expression without Altering Estrogen Receptor-b Expression or Serum Hormonal Pro?les in Men at High Risk of Prostate Cancer

    Results for 20 men consuming: soy protein isolate (SPI1) (107 mg/d iso?avones)

    Protein, g/d
    Baseline: 83 (plus or minus 21)
    6 months: 118 (plus or minus 24)

    Vitamin D: ug/d
    Baseline: 4 (plus or minus 3)
    6 months: 8 (plus or minus 2)

    Calcium mg/d
    Baseline: 890 (plus or minus 400)
    6 months: 2180 (plus or minus 290)

    Androgen receptor (prostate)
    Baseline: 1.37 (plus or minus 0.06)
    6 months: 1.26 (plus or minus 0.05)

    Estradiol, pmol/L; Estrone, pmol/L; Testosterone, nmol/L; Free testosterone, pmol/L. no changes

    DHT, pmol/L was not a significant change but it did have some decrease
    Baseline: 1547 (plus or minus 190)
    6 months: 1215 (plus or minus 94)

    SHBG, nmol/L
    Baseline: 63 (plus or minus 7)
    6 months: 54 (plus or minus 3)

    i might also note
    DHT for alcohol-washed soy protein isolate (SPI2) (,6 mg/d iso?avones)
    Baseline 1354 plus/minus 170
    6 months 1174 plus/minus 89

    again T wasn't affected.
     
  18. kehcorpz

    kehcorpz Guest

    Natural stuff just does not work. You can waste your time all you want. There are way too many factors involved. I mean exercise alone can change your hormones and differently based on your genetics. I tried the natural route and i did Mega dosing and gave it a good year and a half before I gave up and went the propecia route and man does it ever work :)

    Here are the compounds that did nothing:

    Saw Palmetto
    Nettle Root
    Beta Sitosterol (compound in saw palmetto believed to be the DHT blocker)
    L-Arginine
    L-glutamine
    Green Tea Extracts
    Soy Isoflavones
    Biotin
    MSM
    Evening Primrose Oil (Believed to promote anti-inflammatory prostaglandins)
    Cayenne Pepper

    I took way larger doses then typically shown as studies that were in-vitro (you know don't tell us much about humans) showed that doses would have to be large. I just wanted to be the guinea pig and was willing because I knew that natural stuff is pretty much useless and i proved it so.

    Soy will not turn you into a woman. It's a phytoestrogen. It is a partial agonist of estrogen receptors. That means it binds to these receptors but has a weaker impact. This stops actual estrogen from binding to it and initiating a stronger impact. This may also show that estradiol levels go up in the blood. I doubt it's powerful enough to bind to enough receptors even in large doses.

    Natural stuff will not cure a problem. It will keep you healthy as your body will be getting nutrients and using them appropriately and discarding what it does not need. But it will not make drastic changes to your chemistry, this is what drugs do. This is why drugs are prescribed because they can definitely make a big impact as they are designed for the purposes of targeting specific receptors.

    Anyways, I'm trying to save you wasted money and time. The supplement industry is a multi-billion dollar industry. It's full of Quackery. They claim to solve every problem and create diseases that don't exist. There is no such thing as Adrenal Fatigue for example. Yet you will find websites everywhere regarding it. There's the more life threatening Adrenal Insufficiency. But if you have this trust me you will go to a doctor. And the whole Gluten free fads? Only people with Celiac disease cannot tolerate gluten, that is a very small portion of the population. And not to mention bowel cleansing? Your body is designed to dispose waste appropriately and the colon does not leak toxins into your blood as these people believe. God I've read it on the net hehe.

    Anyways, natural stuff will not work for you. You can prove me wrong with some photoshopped poor quality webcam pics. (Yes some guy on the net called WidowsPeak did that).
     
  19. abcdefg

    abcdefg Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    3,037
    Likes Received:
    132
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Yeah I pretty much second this. Some drugs are actually based off natural supplements but then formulated to actually be strong enough to affect the problem they are targeting.
    I tried saw palmetto for a while and it did something to me but no idea what. Then I just said forget it I may as well use the real deal that I know works. People are generally scared of drugs because most of the sides are published and the horror stories of other drugs so they want to believe natural is better when its just not usually the case.
     
  20. shivers20

    shivers20 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2011
    Messages:
    135
    Likes Received:
    18
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    I have been on soy isoflavones for three months, no improvement and still losing my hair.
     

Share This Page

Hair Loss Guides