Smart steroid use

CCS

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see summary 3 posts down if the following reasons are too long to read.


You can't build muscle unless your muscles are taking in protein. So it is a myth that you grow at night. That only applies to height. So there is no point in taking large enough steroid doses to keep levels high even while you are asleep. Smart users will use a small enough dose that it drops off to baseline shortly after you fall asleep. several small pills throughout the day probably is best.

As you know, testosterone is good for muscle building, but excess is bad for the rest of the body, and shrinks the testicles if they did not manufacture it.

You build muscle during the day, when you are digesting food. Testosterone levels spike after exercise, and drop off after a few hours. You need testosterone to take the protein that insulin puts in your muscles, and use it to re-build torn down muscle. You can get a small recovery increase just by using high glycemic protein after a workout so you can get use of that 2 hour spike, but most muscle building is done more slowly at lower testosterone levels over the next few days.

You don't want too much testosterone if you don't even have the muscle rips or available protein to go with it. There probably is an ideal ratio of each that you should shoot for to avoid bottle necks. Taking 100x your normal body amount is dumb. Instead, try to keep it at the natural immediate post workout levels for just a full 14 hours instead of 2. Then the testicles won't shrink as much.

If you are going to subject your whole body to high testosterone levels, you might as well do a full body workout that day, unless individual muscles can take it all in out of the blood.

Testosterone just lets you recover fast, and recover from more, if you give your body everything else it needs.

Finally, I think it is dumb to do 1 month cycles. Why not just do one or two workout cycles, and then workout normally for a while to give your tendons time to catch up? Heavy roid users make 3 steps forward, and then 2 steps back. The 3 steps forward occur on the cycle. The 2 steps back occur when they stop the cycle and their testicles are not making testosterone to maintain their gains. They also get stretch marks.

I don't know if injections are done to protect the intestines, or bipass the liver, or just to get a lot more in. My roommate said he once took a pill daily and shaved 7 seconds off his 1/2 mile time in just 2 weeks, at the end of a session after he'd been running several years. So I don't think larger amounts are needed for better gains.
 

hair today gone tomorrow

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i have huge stretch marks near my armpits....my left pic to my bicep prob has a stretch mark that is 8-10 long...it looks like i had surgery on my rotator cuff or something..haha.
 

CCS

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Yeah, it would be bad if you got stretch marks, and then slacked off and got thin again, and kept the stretch marks.

I have stretch marks on my butt. They are not noticeable, but I feel them, and can see them if I look really closely. I have 2-3 of them, 2 inches long, and 1/16 inch wide. I think I got them from the one time in my life when I put on 15 pounds of fat in two weeks just from eating a lot after I got out of boot camp. A lot of hot women have stretch marks in the same place.

HTGT, how much muscle did you gain in what time to get those? Good reason do single workout cycles, instead of 6 week cycles.
 

CCS

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summarizing:


1. Work out in the morning, then do 14 hour cycles, 2 days in a row, then 10 days off. This gives you testosterone only when you need it (when you are digesting food and recovering), and gives your tendons and skin time to catch up with the mucle, and won't shut down your testicles.

2. Cut up pills, and spread them throughout the day, so your testosterone is back to baseline when you go to sleep, and does not exceed by much the immediate post workout levels.

3. Workout longer. More sets, or full body workout, to get some growth since you are subjecting your body to that testosterone. Drink a carb/protein drink during your workout.
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It is also dumb to bulk/cut in month cycles. You can bulk/cut on alternate days. Or just cut first thing in the morning, then bulk 4 hours later after you had time to build up glycogen for a workout.
 

CCS

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I think a good 14 dose is 10-15mg. I could easily be wrong about that. I'm just basing that guess on the fact that a lot of roid users take 30-100mg daily. The ones that use the most tend to just inject it, since they can save money by using less, since testosterone is not well absorbed in the GI tract.

And get ones that look like testosterone, or are testosterone. The ones with chanes attached to them are hard on the liver.
 

CCS

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since joint pain has been limiting me from working out as hard as I want, I do not think roids are a good option for me right now.
 

hair today gone tomorrow

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collegechemistrystudent said:
Yeah, it would be bad if you got stretch marks, and then slacked off and got thin again, and kept the stretch marks.

I have stretch marks on my butt. They are not noticeable, but I feel them, and can see them if I look really closely. I have 2-3 of them, 2 inches long, and 1/16 inch wide. I think I got them from the one time in my life when I put on 15 pounds of fat in two weeks just from eating a lot after I got out of boot camp. A lot of hot women have stretch marks in the same place.

HTGT, how much muscle did you gain in what time to get those? Good reason do single workout cycles, instead of 6 week cycles.

i started lifting (seriously) when i was 135-140lbs or so at about 20 years old
I noticed the stretch marks at prob 155lbs or so...I have a pretty small frame...but like i said both are under my arm pits and the left one is LOOONG its honestly goes from my upper pec across to my bicep..lol..I dont mind it..the one on my right is prob like 4 inches long or so.

so i only gained lets say 20lbs in a matter of 1.5-2 years and i got them..it depends on the person though I know guys that have gain 40lbs and dont have any at all.

btw....there is no smart way to do steroids.
 

s.a.f

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What are these pills you keep talking about?
 

Harie

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CCS - you really don't know what you're talking about with this thread.

1. There are so many types of injectable test that your statements don't really apply.

2. Injection times(days) differ greatly depending on what type of test you're taking. You inject Test-E on a completely different schedule than say, Test-P

3. 14 day cycles with long esters will do nothing but waste your $$.

4. Depending on what type of Test you're taking 10 - 15mg will do absolutely nothing for you (actually, 10 - 15mg will do nothing for you).

5. As long as you're keeping your body anabolic, there's no reason you can't rebuild muscles in your sleep. That's why many BBers wake up at 2 or 3AM and slam a protein shake. If you don't want to wake up in the middle of the night, eat lots of dairy base protein before bed. This will keep you ababolic for a good portion of the night since dairy base protein is slow digesting.

6. Oral steroids are risky as they're very hard on your liver. As a rule, you should always include test in any cycle you do to keep from shutting down hard core. IE DECA only cycles are stupid.

7. Yes, it's usually dumb to do 1 month cycles. But for the simple reason that most long estered test cycles last 10 - 16 weeks. Hell, if you're running Test-E, it won't even kick in for a good month anyway.

8. The longer an injectible takes to kick in, the more likely you are to keep the gains. Running Test-S may be great for super quick gains, but it may be harder to keep them than with a longer ester test.

*edit* What is this test pill you're taking about that's taken every day? Anyone that I know, or have heard of, that runs test injects it, or makes a transdermal.
 

CCS

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Are you saying that there are no products that increase testerone levels right away? All of them gradually increase levels?
Do transdermals cause acne where applied, in a moderate number of guys?



I did not recommend a 14 day cycle. I recommended a 14 hour cycle. That would be a waste if the prohormone takes weeks to increase testosterone levels, which is why I would not want to take weeks. I think the reason guys lose their gains is because their testicles shut down after high, long doses, and not because of how soon testosterone levels increase. Do you believe otherwise?

I don't know of any testosterone pills. Most are testosterone esters, which the liver has to break apart to release the testosterone. It also metabolises it. It is true that injecting would avoid this first past.

I'm aware you can stay anabolic if you eat at night too. I was just saying you don't build muscle when you are not digesting food.
 

CCS

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I'm sure high doses of test will stay in the system longer. But at doses near the natural level, they should drop off after a few hours. It is the liver that breaks it down.
 

Harie

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collegechemistrystudent said:
Are you saying that there are no products that increase testerone levels right away? All of them gradually increase levels?

No, I'm saying there are many different esters of testosterone and some are fast acting and some slow acting. You'd have to some research to see which one you want to run. Short acting test = Test-P or Test-Susp. A normal cycle for Test-P would be 6 - 8 weeks.

The longer the ester, the longer your cycle needs to be for the effects to kick in.

collegechemistrystudent said:
Do transdermals cause acne where applied, in a moderate number of guys?

If you're prone to acne, then running test will increase acne all over, not just at the site of the transdermal. If you're not prone to it, then you shouldn't have much of a problem.

collegechemistrystudent said:
I think the reason guys lose their gains is because their testicles shut down after high, long doses, and not because of how soon testosterone levels increase. Do you believe otherwise?

As long as you have proper PCT, you should be able to keep a good portion of the gains made while on cycle. The people that lose all of their gains is either because they failed to do PCT, or failed to do proper PCT. If you gain 15lbs from a Test-P cycle, with proper PCT, diet and exercise, you should be able to keep 10lbs of it.
 

Harie

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Oh, BTW - the shorter the ester, the more often you have to pin... Test-E can be pinned 1x/week, while Test-Susp has to be pinned every day, or 2x/day to keep blood levels stable.

So, it's definitely a trade-off.
 

CCS

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I just don't understand why test-Susp, which peaks and baselines in less than a day, would not give a guy benifits until 6 weeks later. I understand how you can't see a weighable difference until several weeks later, but I don't see why you would not start building muscle until weeks into the program. I smell a myth or a misstatement. My goal would be to build 5/30 pounds in a day, then stop the cycle and work out normal for a week, then do one more and gain 5/30 pounds again, assuming a guy can build 5 pounds in a month on roids.
 

CCS

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It is true you can wake up and eat all night, but I think that is not healthy. Caesin protein can last a while, but I doubt nearly 8 hours, or the recommended 9 for body building. I'm saying roid users should limit the damaging effects of testosterone by only using it when they actually have a lot of food available, and then only use it for a day at a time at 2x natural levels to avoid losses and stretch marks.

It seems to me that you are saying guys should do long cycles because it takes time to gain 10 pounds. I'm saying they should not be in such a hurry, and should be happy with 5/30 pounds here and 5/30 pounds there, as long as their balls don't shrink. Test-susp and some transdermals peak within hours.
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Picking the dose:

I read that normal healthy young male testosterone levels are 1000 nanograms per deciliter. Older men are closer to half that. The range for young men is actually 300-1200, but 1000 is about ideal. So to double their natural levels, guys would want to increase their testosterone concentration by 1000 nanograms per deciliter during my waking hours after a workout.

One liter is one kilogram. A 150 pound male weighs about 70 kg. Assuming testosterone is evenly distributed (yeah, not to accurate, but good enough for a ball park), that is 700 deciliters.

700 deciliters * 1000 nanograms/deciliter = 0.7mg.
Natural post workout testosterone peaks drop to baseline in 60 minutes.
So for 14 hours, you need 10mg spread out.
Transdermals only have 10% absorption. So apply 10-20 mg 5-10 times a day, or do multiple injections totally 10 mg. Pills would be nicer, but I don't know what the absorption rate is or what would release soon enough.

The bigger the dose, the higher the peak, and longer it takes to peak.
 

CCS

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I know I'm complicating things, but being exposed to high levels of test 24/7 is bad, and you build too much muscle in those 6-16 weeks. How much is typical in 16 weeks on a cycle? 30 pounds?
 

CCS

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http://www.steroid.com/Transdermal-Testosterone.php

there you go. Nice flat peak that lasts 12 hours. Well, not as fast acting or as flat as ideal, but close. 12g increases test levels 60% at peak.

They say to use 20% PG, some octly salicilyate, and probably also DMSO. One particularly successful transdermal testosterone delivery method involves the combination of DuroTak 87-2510 as an adhesive polymer. This is combined with 3% dodecylamine and 10% span 80.

just need crystaline testosterone.

yeah, and borage or flax seed fatty acids would prevent local acne and conversion to DHT.
 

CCS

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apply the stuff to the skin over the muscle group that was recently worked.


though I just looked at the charts again, and 100mg injected once a week only doubles test levels. So maybe those roid users are not using a lot after all. I still think having something in my system 16 weeks is too long for health. Daily peaks are better because you can stop any time and use them again later.
 

CCS

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If there is anyone on here who is crazy enough to use steroids, then I guess this is the thread for them.
 
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