Smad-7 New find

michael barry

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"Smad-7"


Oregon Health & Science University researchers have uncovered a pathway through which a gene's over-expression causes skin stem cells to switch from creating hair follicles to creating sebaceous glands.

The discovery by the laboratory of Xiao-Jing Wang, MD, PhD, professor of otolaryngology/head and neck surgery, OHSU School of Medicine, and member of the OHSU Cancer Institute, points to a new pathway that could some day be used as a therapeutic target for not only treating hair loss and oily skin, but prevent and treat cancer.

The study's results are published in a recent issue of the journal Developmental Cell.

Epidermal stem cells give rise to the outer layer of the skin that serves as a barrier for the body, as well as follicles that produce hairs and sebaceous glands that produce lipid oil to lubricate the skin. In aged skin, a protein called Smad7 is overproduced, which triggers hair loss and sebaceous gland growth.

The Developmental Cell study is the first to definitively link Smad7 over-expression and the pathological changes that occur in aged skin.

"In humans, scientists and medical doctors documented the aging skin phenotype a long time ago, and the Smad7 over-expression in aged skin was reported a few years ago, but nobody knew whether these two events had any link," said Wang, who also serves in the OHSU departments of Cell and Developmental Biology, and Dermatology. "We found the mechanism that links these two together."

For their study, the researchers created genetically engineered mice in which Smad7 is expressed in the skin, including epidermal stem cells, with the expression level comparable to aged skin. They found that Smad7 over-expression shifts the epidermal stem cell differentiation program from forming hair follicles to sebaceous glands, causing the mice to exhibit balding and oily skin.

Surprising to the researchers was that, independent of its normal role in blocking signaling from a group of genes called Smad, Smad7 shuts down signaling of another group of genes called Wnt, by binding to a Wnt signaling protein known as Beta-catenin and degrading it with an enzyme called Smurf2. Wnt signaling is critical for organ development, but if Wnt signaling is too active, it also causes cancer.

"Our study identifies a new Beta-catenin degradation pathway," the scientists said in the study. "This finding has a significant impact not only on skin development and diseases, but also on diseases and cancers in other organs."




Thats a pretty interesting scientific discovery. I wonder if Smad effects sebocyte glands as well?
 

HARM1

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omg this is grand !
How does this link to androgens, if it does at all?
I'm not sure this is what causes male pattern baldness but maybe another factor. HMMM I get to give this one a better read
 

docj077

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TGF-beta is the molecule responsible for activating the Smad pathway. TGF-beta concentration is increased by an as of yet unknown mechanism by the binding of androgens to the androgen receptor in males susceptible to male pattern baldness.

That's how Smad is linked to androgens and male pattern baldness.
 

HARM1

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docj077 said:
TGF-beta is the molecule responsible for activating the Smad pathway. TGF-beta concentration is increased by an as of yet unknown mechanism by the binding of androgens to the androgen receptor in males susceptible to male pattern baldness.

That's how Smad is linked to androgens and male pattern baldness.
WOW , so : Androgens start a proccess in which fallicles are made in to sebaceous glands?
That explains why we feel an increase of sebum as male pattern baldness sets in.

But you act like this is a known and not surprisןing fact to you? I was sure this was new, and could bring new ways of fighting male pattern baldness.
 

So

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He has talked about TGF-Beta many times before. The moral of the story, for now, is to inhibit TGF-Beta until a treatment resulting from the aforementioned study is developed (if at all).
 

docj077

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HARM1 said:
docj077 said:
TGF-beta is the molecule responsible for activating the Smad pathway. TGF-beta concentration is increased by an as of yet unknown mechanism by the binding of androgens to the androgen receptor in males susceptible to male pattern baldness.

That's how Smad is linked to androgens and male pattern baldness.
WOW , so : Androgens start a proccess in which fallicles are made in to sebaceous glands?
That explains why we feel an increase of sebum as male pattern baldness sets in.

But you act like this is a known and not surprisןing fact to you? I was sure this was new, and could bring new ways of fighting male pattern baldness.

TGF-beta's link to keratinocyte apoptosis and hair growth inhibition has been known for 2-3 years. The TGF-beta/Smad molecular pathway has been known for 10 -15 years.

Targeting the TGF-beta pathway and TGF receptors has been thought to be an excellent novel therapy and one study even recommended using it to reverse the fibrotic damage caused by drugs like Accutane.

There currently are a few drugs out there that target the TGF-beta pathway and an excellent example is Pentoxifylline, which believe it or not is actually recommended for Peyroine's Disease, a fibrotic disease that causes penile curvature. Scios is also developing a drug that targets the TGF receptor.

Unfortunately, I've tried to figure out this pathway before and it's actually the downstream Smad 2, 3 and 4 molecules that cause the transcription of genes after they are acted upon by TGF-beta. Smad-7 is supposed to inhibit the TGF receptor, which would mean it should inhibit the effects of TGF-beta on target cells.

My guess is that the androgens are actually upregulating TGF-beta production, which means that more TGF-beta molecules are binding to target cells and receptors. This in turn is upregulating the production of Smad-7 as the cell is trying to inhibit the effects of TGF-beta by decreasing TGF-beta receptor production.

So, in conclusion, it's a pretty safe bet that increased TGF-beta is simply causing an increase in Smad-7, because the cell is trying overcome the unhealthy apoptotic effects of the TGF-beta molecules by trying to decrease its TGF-beta receptors through Smad-7 signaling.

What the scientists found might seem like an incidental finding, but it's very likely that what they found is the cellular mechanism that hair follicles are potentially using to protect themselves from the harmful effects of androgens in susceptible individuals.
 

docj077

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So said:
He has talked about TGF-Beta many times before. The moral of the story, for now, is to inhibit TGF-Beta until a treatment resulting from the aforementioned study is developed (if at all).

The only effective means of doing this that is approved by the FDA is the use of 5 alpha reductase inhibitors or other androgen receptor blockers. This will decrease either DHT production or androgen binding, which should decrease TGF-beta production and all its effects. Using 5AR inhibitors is also known to increase IGF-1 production, which is a pro-growth molecule. Unfortunately, we can't just take IGF-1 internally. It seems to accelerate hair growth and cause massive shedding. Most people don't like that for some reason.
 

HARM1

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docj077 said:
HARM1 said:
docj077 said:
TGF-beta is the molecule responsible for activating the Smad pathway. TGF-beta concentration is increased by an as of yet unknown mechanism by the binding of androgens to the androgen receptor in males susceptible to male pattern baldness.

That's how Smad is linked to androgens and male pattern baldness.
WOW , so : Androgens start a proccess in which fallicles are made in to sebaceous glands?
That explains why we feel an increase of sebum as male pattern baldness sets in.

But you act like this is a known and not surprisןing fact to you? I was sure this was new, and could bring new ways of fighting male pattern baldness.

TGF-beta's link to keratinocyte apoptosis and hair growth inhibition has been known for 2-3 years. The TGF-beta/Smad molecular pathway has been known for 10 -15 years.

Targeting the TGF-beta pathway and TGF receptors has been thought to be an excellent novel therapy and one study even recommended using it to reverse the fibrotic damage caused by drugs like Accutane.

There currently are a few drugs out there that target the TGF-beta pathway and an excellent example is Pentoxifylline, which believe it or not is actually recommended for Peyroine's Disease, a fibrotic disease that causes penile curvature. Scios is also developing a drug that targets the TGF receptor.

Unfortunately, I've tried to figure out this pathway before and it's actually the downstream Smad 2, 3 and 4 molecules that cause the transcription of genes after they are acted upon by TGF-beta. Smad-7 is supposed to inhibit the TGF receptor, which would mean it should inhibit the effects of TGF-beta on target cells.

My guess is that the androgens are actually upregulating TGF-beta production, which means that more TGF-beta molecules are binding to target cells and receptors. This in turn is upregulating the production of Smad-7 as the cell is trying to inhibit the effects of TGF-beta by decreasing TGF-beta receptor production.

So, in conclusion, it's a pretty safe bet that increased TGF-beta is simply causing an increase in Smad-7, because the cell is trying overcome the unhealthy apoptotic effects of the TGF-beta molecules by trying to decrease its TGF-beta receptors through Smad-7 signaling.

What the scientists found might seem like an incidental finding, but it's very likely that what they found is the cellular mechanism that hair follicles are potentially using to protect themselves from the harmful effects of androgens in susceptible individuals.
You knew that TGF-beta is the molecule responsible for activating the Smad pathway, but how could you know that the Smad pathway begins a proccess in which hair folliclesturn in to to sebaceous glands? MICHAEL BERRY Just said this is a new discovery !
 

docj077

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HARM1 said:
docj077 said:
HARM1 said:
docj077 said:
TGF-beta is the molecule responsible for activating the Smad pathway. TGF-beta concentration is increased by an as of yet unknown mechanism by the binding of androgens to the androgen receptor in males susceptible to male pattern baldness.

That's how Smad is linked to androgens and male pattern baldness.
WOW , so : Androgens start a proccess in which fallicles are made in to sebaceous glands?
That explains why we feel an increase of sebum as male pattern baldness sets in.

But you act like this is a known and not surprisןing fact to you? I was sure this was new, and could bring new ways of fighting male pattern baldness.

TGF-beta's link to keratinocyte apoptosis and hair growth inhibition has been known for 2-3 years. The TGF-beta/Smad molecular pathway has been known for 10 -15 years.

Targeting the TGF-beta pathway and TGF receptors has been thought to be an excellent novel therapy and one study even recommended using it to reverse the fibrotic damage caused by drugs like Accutane.

There currently are a few drugs out there that target the TGF-beta pathway and an excellent example is Pentoxifylline, which believe it or not is actually recommended for Peyroine's Disease, a fibrotic disease that causes penile curvature. Scios is also developing a drug that targets the TGF receptor.

Unfortunately, I've tried to figure out this pathway before and it's actually the downstream Smad 2, 3 and 4 molecules that cause the transcription of genes after they are acted upon by TGF-beta. Smad-7 is supposed to inhibit the TGF receptor, which would mean it should inhibit the effects of TGF-beta on target cells.

My guess is that the androgens are actually upregulating TGF-beta production, which means that more TGF-beta molecules are binding to target cells and receptors. This in turn is upregulating the production of Smad-7 as the cell is trying to inhibit the effects of TGF-beta by decreasing TGF-beta receptor production.

So, in conclusion, it's a pretty safe bet that increased TGF-beta is simply causing an increase in Smad-7, because the cell is trying overcome the unhealthy apoptotic effects of the TGF-beta molecules by trying to decrease its TGF-beta receptors through Smad-7 signaling.

What the scientists found might seem like an incidental finding, but it's very likely that what they found is the cellular mechanism that hair follicles are potentially using to protect themselves from the harmful effects of androgens in susceptible individuals.
You knew that TGF-beta is the molecule responsible for activating the Smad pathway, but how could you know that the Smad pathway begins a proccess in which hair folliclesturn in to to sebaceous glands? MICHAEL BERRY Just said this is a new discovery !

It's unlikely that Smad-7 has anything to do with this transformation. What is more likely is that an increase in Smad-7 is simply an incidental finding and really doesn't represent a significant scientific find.

A scientist can say that an increase in Smad-7 is associated with a transformation, because Smad-7 is increased, but that doesn't mean that Smad-7 is the molecule responsible for the process. In fact, it's probably increased and simply trying to negatively impact the process by downregulating TGF-beta receptors.
 

HARM1

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DOCKJ![/quote]

It's unlikely that Smad-7 has anything to do with this transformation. What is more likely is that an increase in Smad-7 is simply an incidental finding and really doesn't represent a significant scientific find.

A scientist can say that an increase in Smad-7 is associated with a transformation, because Smad-7 is increased, but that doesn't mean that Smad-7 is the molecule responsible for the process. In fact, it's probably increased and simply trying to negatively impact the process by downregulating TGF-beta receptors.[/quote]
DOCJ thank you for sharing and explaning your knpwledge.
Is this transformation of follicles to sebaceous glands a known thing?
I thought that you believed that andorgens bring TGF BETA LEVELS UP ---> and TGF-beta(1)- or TGF-beta(2)-induced apoptosis that is assumed to trigger catagen induction in the hair cycle. meaning death of the fallicle.
this study shows not apoptosis but transformation. so which one is true?
Does TGF beta bring apoptosis or transformation? or maybe both?
 

docj077

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HARM1 said:

It's unlikely that Smad-7 has anything to do with this transformation. What is more likely is that an increase in Smad-7 is simply an incidental finding and really doesn't represent a significant scientific find.

A scientist can say that an increase in Smad-7 is associated with a transformation, because Smad-7 is increased, but that doesn't mean that Smad-7 is the molecule responsible for the process. In fact, it's probably increased and simply trying to negatively impact the process by downregulating TGF-beta receptors.[/quote]
DOCJ thank you for sharing and explaning your knpwledge.
Is this transformation of follicles to sebaceous glands a known thing?
I thought that you believed that andorgens bring TGF BETA LEVELS UP ---> and TGF-beta(1)- or TGF-beta(2)-induced apoptosis that is assumed to trigger catagen induction in the hair cycle. meaning death of the fallicle.
this study shows not apoptosis but transformation. so which one is true?
Does TGF beta bring apoptosis or transformation? or maybe both?[/quote]

This study was very focused and simply looking for the any molecule that might be increased when the scientists viewed this change. This transformation is known, but the mechanism is unknown. In fact, even though Smad-7 is known to increase I'd still have to say that the process has still not been completely worked out.

TGF-beta is known to induce apoptosis and inhibit growth in the hair follicle. It's likely that TGF-beta is linked to both hair follicle apoptosis and this transformation.

What the scientists are describing is almost like metaplasia and that's rather disheartening as it would be an irreversible process.
 

HARM1

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docj077 said:
HARM1 said:
sex


OK SO we have a big salad; ANDROGENS RAISE TGF BETA, which induces apoptosis and a transformation. Where does the immune response come in?

I've taken accutane and right after that started my balding proccess at 17, how do you connect it to male pattern baldness?
 

docj077

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HARM1 said:
docj077 said:
HARM1 said:
sex


OK SO we have a big salad; ANDROGENS RAISE TGF BETA, which induces apoptosis and a transformation. Where does the immune response come in?

I've taken accutane and right after that started my balding proccess at 17, how do you connect it to male pattern baldness?

Not everyone has an immune response during as they bald. The majority of people that do are those with seborrheic dermatitis that allows for bacteria to produce pro-inflammatory fatty acids causing scalp inflammation, irritation, and itching.

A study that I posted on this site a couple of times linked accutane to both baldness and TGF-beta upregulation with fibrosis. Basically, accutane causes the exact same processes to occur that seem to happen with male pattern baldness. I even think that there might be a warning label on accutane now that states it could cause a person to lose their hair while on the product.
 

HARM1

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docj077 said:
HARM1 said:
docj077 said:
HARM1 said:
sex


OK SO we have a big salad; ANDROGENS RAISE TGF BETA, which induces apoptosis and a transformation. Where does the immune response come in?

I've taken accutane and right after that started my balding proccess at 17, how do you connect it to male pattern baldness?

Not everyone has an immune response during as they bald. The majority of people that do are those with seborrheic dermatitis that allows for bacteria to produce pro-inflammatory fatty acids causing scalp inflammation, irritation, and itching.

A study that I posted on this site a couple of times linked accutane to both baldness and TGF-beta upregulation with fibrosis. Basically, accutane causes the exact same processes to occur that seem to happen with male pattern baldness. I even think that there might be a warning label on accutane now that states it could cause a person to lose their hair while on the product.
Doctor I have SD an indeed have an inflamed scalp. But the Emmune response in SD is against a yeast, not the fallicles. Are you saying that the response to the yeast dameges the fallicles somehow?how?

You claim that people with no SD or seabora do not have an immune response, rendering the ןmmune factor in male pattern baldness insignificant ! since,according to you, people with no immune response still bald. Do you stand behing this claim? how did you get to it, can you prove it?

If this is true anti emmune products such as SODS and dr. proctor's stuff are useless for people with no SD.
wating to hear from you.
 

docj077

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HARM1 said:
docj077 said:
HARM1 said:
docj077 said:
HARM1 said:
sex


OK SO we have a big salad; ANDROGENS RAISE TGF BETA, which induces apoptosis and a transformation. Where does the immune response come in?

I've taken accutane and right after that started my balding proccess at 17, how do you connect it to male pattern baldness?

Not everyone has an immune response during as they bald. The majority of people that do are those with seborrheic dermatitis that allows for bacteria to produce pro-inflammatory fatty acids causing scalp inflammation, irritation, and itching.

A study that I posted on this site a couple of times linked accutane to both baldness and TGF-beta upregulation with fibrosis. Basically, accutane causes the exact same processes to occur that seem to happen with male pattern baldness. I even think that there might be a warning label on accutane now that states it could cause a person to lose their hair while on the product.
Doctor I have SD an indeed have an inflamed scalp. But the Emmune response in SD is against a yeast, not the fallicles. Are you saying that the response to the yeast dameges the fallicles somehow?how?

You claim that people with no SD or seabora do not have an immune response, rendering the ןmmune factor in male pattern baldness insignificant ! since,according to you, people with no immune response still bald. Do you stand behing this claim? how did you get to it, can you prove it?

If this is true anti emmune products such as SODS and dr. proctor's stuff are useless for people with no SD.
wating to hear from you.

Pityrosporum has been proposed as the causative agent, but it hasn't been proven to be the only cause. There are numerous diseases and environmental causes associated with the development of seborrheic dermatitis.

And, no, I did not claim that people without SD have no immune response. I said that the majority do not. That's completely different. You always put words into the mouths of other people and it's quite inappropriate. A very small population of people with alopecia androgenica demonstrate an increase in lymphocytic infiltrates microscopically and some even have antibodies in their blood that are targeted against the hair follicle. However, there has never been a proven link between an immune response and a defective androgen receptor discovered.
 

HARM1

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docj077 said:
HARM1 said:
docj077 said:
HARM1 said:
docj077 said:
[quote="HARM1":3482e]DOCKJ!
sex


OK SO we have a big salad; ANDROGENS RAISE TGF BETA, which induces apoptosis and a transformation. Where does the immune response come in?

I've taken accutane and right after that started my balding proccess at 17, how do you connect it to male pattern baldness?

Not everyone has an immune response during as they bald. The majority of people that do are those with seborrheic dermatitis that allows for bacteria to produce pro-inflammatory fatty acids causing scalp inflammation, irritation, and itching.

A study that I posted on this site a couple of times linked accutane to both baldness and TGF-beta upregulation with fibrosis. Basically, accutane causes the exact same processes to occur that seem to happen with male pattern baldness. I even think that there might be a warning label on accutane now that states it could cause a person to lose their hair while on the product.
Doctor I have SD an indeed have an inflamed scalp. But the Emmune response in SD is against a yeast, not the fallicles. Are you saying that the response to the yeast dameges the fallicles somehow?how?

You claim that people with no SD or seabora do not have an immune response, rendering the ןmmune factor in male pattern baldness insignificant ! since,according to you, people with no immune response still bald. Do you stand behing this claim? how did you get to it, can you prove it?

If this is true anti emmune products such as SODS and dr. proctor's stuff are useless for people with no SD.
wating to hear from you.

Pityrosporum has been proposed as the causative agent, but it hasn't been proven to be the only cause. There are numerous diseases and environmental causes associated with the development of seborrheic dermatitis.

And, no, I did not claim that people without SD have no immune response. I said that the majority do not. That's completely different. You always put words into the mouths of other people and it's quite inappropriate. A very small population of people with alopecia androgenica demonstrate an increase in lymphocytic infiltrates microscopically and some even have antibodies in their blood that are targeted against the hair follicle. However, there has never been a proven link between an immune response and a defective androgen receptor discovered.[/quote:3482e]
I'm truely sorry I missed out on the small word that says alot" majority ". MY BAD.I usually phrase myself in such a way that helps me uderstand what the other person is saying, and I put it in a definitive form since I come fron a mathematical world, altough biology is my new love. I'll try to do a better JOB. Forgive me!

Now my friend I must get to the bottom of this:
whilst writing " There are numerous diseases and environmental causes associated with the development of seborrheic dermatitis." Did you have in mind something in regards to male pattern baldness or was this just to make it clear to me that Pityrosporum is not the only player in SD?

You write that "A very small population of people with alopecia androgenica demonstrate an increase in lymphocytic infiltrates microscopically and some even have antibodies in their blood that are targeted against the hair follicle" But most baldies complain of itching and even pain.

Are there two groups of immune responses, and 3 of male pattern baldness SUFFERErS ?:
1) SD immune response -- how can it damege the fallicles if SD does not target the fallicles?
2)NON sd immune response-- if so what is the origin of the response?
3)male pattern baldness sufferers with no immune respponse?
?

I love you,
HARM
 

michael barry

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Hi Doctor and Hi Harm,

I'd like to add at this point that many have claimed to have success in lowering sebum secretions with MSM (as well as nizoral, and spironolactone).......



Doctor,
I was looking at a very bald, somewhat dark brown black man the other day. His balding area (huge) was a lighter shad of brown, with a strange yellowish hue, and somewhat rumpled. I thought about ya' man. I wondered if it was excessive collagen deposition, the thickening of the collagen in the connective tissue sheath, and enlarged sebaceous glands. His scalp looked "swollen". No kidding Doctor, I work with a bald white man whose scalp "SHINES" so much, you can just about comb your hair in the damned reflection in it. Its not pink though, no inflammatation (at least obviously).....




Anyway guys,
Here is Dr. Marty Sawaya on MSM from an old hairlosstalk article (she's a hair researcher):

"MSM for hair loss


MSM
Methyl-sulfonyl-methane (MSM): a naturally occurring sulfur compound found in the body, as well as in various foods. Reviewing the website: http://www.msm.com, it states that MSM is found in milk, coffee, tea, vegetables, etc. It is sold as capsules, tablets, powders, as well as topical preparations. According to the website, MSM is supposed to maintain structural proteins, form keratin proteins which make up the hair fiber and help the immune system. MSM has also been stated to help with pain, inflammation, increase blood flow, soften scar tissue and reduce muscle spasms. Reviews on the website also mention studies using MSM to help those with arthritis. From these reports, the users stated improvement to their nails and hair. “Those taking MSM showed 50% increased nail length, thickness and growth compared with placebo, and 100% of the subjects showed increased hair growth compared with placebo. In addition, 30% of the subjects taking MSM showed improvement in hair brillianceâ€.

Wow, those are pretty good numbers, but I wish I could see their standardized photography, and how these parameters were assessed. I didn’t see any hair counts, computerized systems for hair counting, biopsies, macro or microphotography. It’s really tough to determine what they mean by “100% increased hair growthâ€. So, until you see the full-published report done by the most rigorous testing methods, it is best to be skeptical. The website describes physicians who conducted the study, but to be honest, family practitioners don’t know enough about dermatology and hair growth to conduct such a study. Many dermatologists in general, are not comfortable with hair disorders and will even tell you so. It’s probably best to get the few who know anything about hair to do these studies.

The Absence of real Data

When a product is used for so many purposes, such as MSM, (used for inflammation, arthritis, blood circulation, scar tissue, etc,) it is best to review any human and animal studies that may have been done. It’s really tough to assess hair brilliance, as this is so subjective, but at least they could have done hair counts by macro photography, which is really the way to go these days, and it wouldn’t cost that much. If they could test it in the appropriate “accepted methods†which hair studies are done today, and they prove to be positive, imagine how much money they could really make?


The website suggests doses of 1,000 mg taken by mouth, three times a day with meals. It is stated that MSM is non-toxic at extremely high doses, but it is best to review how this was assessed and what animal toxicity studies were done. I wouldn’t suggest taking doses this high unless I really did some investigative homework to know all toxicology that has been done in human and animal studies.

MSM may help, however...

From my past research experience, it is true that there are many enzymes in skin that are important for adding sulfur and taking sulfur away from hormones and proteins, such as the keratins. During my doctoral years of studying the male-hormone enzymes that convert testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and other pathways, there are sulfhydryl-oxidizing and reducing enzymes that make the hormones water soluble to be transported in the blood. There are a lot of sulfhydryl bonds in hair fiber, and keratin-proteins which make-up hair. The sulfur mediating enzymes and their pathways are so complex and not totally known.

It is doubtful that taking them by mouth will have any effect at the intracellular (inside the cell) level where they need to be to influence hair fiber growth.

Because of limited research funds, a lot of the “sulfur-mediating enzymes†story is just incomplete. We don’t really know, but it sure sounds good, and it could be possible, but it is best to have a company spend about $100,000 for some limited clinical trial testing, done by experienced physicians, in a double-blind fashion for a 6 month to 1 year period of time to really test any claims for hair growth.

Conclusion

There have been so many herbal supplements that have hit the marketplace, and for some people taking them who have hair loss, they swear they are seeing improvements. The problem is documentation. People want proof in the way of standardized photography taken by experts with controlled lighting, film exposure and film quality. Taking a snapshot, or quick digital photo just doesn’t cut the mustard.

For now, CAUTION is advised for any nutritional/herbal supplement you decide to take to treat your hair loss. For many, like biotin, they may not hurt you, but I doubt it will really help you.

Next issue will continue on herbal remedies and will discuss: Pygeum, Nettles, Green Tea, and Omega-3 Fish Oils.

Marty Sawaya MD, PhD"
 

docj077

Senior Member
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HARM1 said:
docj077 said:
HARM1 said:
docj077 said:
HARM1 said:
[quote="docj077":8157e][quote="HARM1":8157e]DOCKJ!
sex


OK SO we have a big salad; ANDROGENS RAISE TGF BETA, which induces apoptosis and a transformation. Where does the immune response come in?

I've taken accutane and right after that started my balding proccess at 17, how do you connect it to male pattern baldness?

Not everyone has an immune response during as they bald. The majority of people that do are those with seborrheic dermatitis that allows for bacteria to produce pro-inflammatory fatty acids causing scalp inflammation, irritation, and itching.

A study that I posted on this site a couple of times linked accutane to both baldness and TGF-beta upregulation with fibrosis. Basically, accutane causes the exact same processes to occur that seem to happen with male pattern baldness. I even think that there might be a warning label on accutane now that states it could cause a person to lose their hair while on the product.
Doctor I have SD an indeed have an inflamed scalp. But the Emmune response in SD is against a yeast, not the fallicles. Are you saying that the response to the yeast dameges the fallicles somehow?how?

You claim that people with no SD or seabora do not have an immune response, rendering the ןmmune factor in male pattern baldness insignificant ! since,according to you, people with no immune response still bald. Do you stand behing this claim? how did you get to it, can you prove it?

If this is true anti emmune products such as SODS and dr. proctor's stuff are useless for people with no SD.
wating to hear from you.

Pityrosporum has been proposed as the causative agent, but it hasn't been proven to be the only cause. There are numerous diseases and environmental causes associated with the development of seborrheic dermatitis.

And, no, I did not claim that people without SD have no immune response. I said that the majority do not. That's completely different. You always put words into the mouths of other people and it's quite inappropriate. A very small population of people with alopecia androgenica demonstrate an increase in lymphocytic infiltrates microscopically and some even have antibodies in their blood that are targeted against the hair follicle. However, there has never been a proven link between an immune response and a defective androgen receptor discovered.[/quote:8157e]
I'm truely sorry I missed out on the small word that says alot" majority ". MY BAD.I usually phrase myself in such a way that helps me uderstand what the other person is saying, and I put it in a definitive form since I come fron a mathematical world, altough biology is my new love. I'll try to do a better JOB. Forgive me!

Now my friend I must get to the bottom of this:
whilst writing " There are numerous diseases and environmental causes associated with the development of seborrheic dermatitis." Did you have in mind something in regards to male pattern baldness or was this just to make it clear to me that Pityrosporum is not the only player in SD?

You write that "A very small population of people with alopecia androgenica demonstrate an increase in lymphocytic infiltrates microscopically and some even have antibodies in their blood that are targeted against the hair follicle" But most baldies complain of itching and even pain.

Are there two groups of immune responses, and 3 of male pattern baldness SUFFERErS ?:
1) SD immune response -- how can it damege the fallicles if SD does not target the fallicles?
2)NON sd immune response-- if so what is the origin of the response?
3)male pattern baldness sufferers with no immune respponse?
?

I love you,
HARM[/quote:8157e]

You bring up some good points.

Seborrheic dermatitis either accelerates the damage that androgens cause in male pattern baldness or it merely accompanies male pattern baldness as both processes are associated with androgens and follicular damage. It's quite possible that they feed off each other through the course of both diseases with male pattern baldness and a fungus (or other organism) promoting this transition from a normal hair follicle into what apparently is viewed as cellular material that is similar to sebaceous glands.

That's just speculation, but most of the stuff we talk about on these forums is almost purely imaginative, but never misguided.

As for this:

1) SD immune response -- how can it damege the fallicles if SD does not target the fallicles?
2)NON sd immune response-- if so what is the origin of the response?
3)male pattern baldness sufferers with no immune respponse?

1.SD doesn't need to target the follicle. Constant damage from a fungus can produce fibrosis, an increase in sebaceous gland sebum production, and an immune response. Technically, it can cause the entire male pattern baldness process to occur in the absence of any other influence. I'm sure that the defective androgen receptor has something to do with it. We'll just have to see where science takes us.

2.The origin of the response is likely some sort of response to androgens in the scalp. It seems like every man (not sure about women) have an increase in sebum production on their scalp. Sebum is broken down into proinflammatory fatty acids by bacteria. That's likely the place the inflammation, itching, and redness comes from in this disease. I'm not really sure what takes the process from being one of simply inflammation to being one of fungal growth and chronic infection.

3.This is starting to sound like androgens upregulate TGF-beta production. TGF-beta seems to inhibit hair growth by causing keratinocyte apoptosis. It's also looking like Smad-7 is upregulated to try to decrease the response to TGF-beta, but unfortunately it's also linked to a sort of metaplasia that causes normal hair follicles to somehow change to sebaceous glands.

That's all I have for now. I think science is still working on this one, but they're making progress.
 

Armando Jose

Senior Member
My Regimen
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This is an interesting issue.
.The origin of the response is likely some sort of response to androgens in the scalp. It seems like every man (not sure about women) have an increase in sebum production on their scalp. Sebum is broken down into proinflammatory fatty acids by bacteria. That's likely the place the inflammation, itching, and redness comes from in this disease. I'm not really sure what takes the process from being one of simply inflammation to being one of fungal growth and chronic infection.
My question is: if sebum is broken down into proinflammatory fatty acids, are they free fatty acids? If yes, what about the role of these FFA's regarding the possiblity to interfere with the androgens? Liao's investigations point out to act FFA's as a antiandrogens because don't permit the change to DHT from testosetrone.

Armando
 

HARM1

Established Member
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1
docj077 said:
You bring up some good points.

Seborrheic dermatitis either accelerates the damage that androgens cause in male pattern baldness or it merely accompanies male pattern baldness as both processes are associated with androgens and follicular damage. It's quite possible that they feed off each other through the course of both diseases with male pattern baldness and a fungus (or other organism) promoting this transition from a normal hair follicle into what apparently is viewed as cellular material that is similar to sebaceous glands.

That's just speculation, but most of the stuff we talk about on these forums is almost purely imaginative, but never misguided.

As for this:

1) SD immune response -- how can it damege the fallicles if SD does not target the fallicles?
2)NON sd immune response-- if so what is the origin of the response?
3)male pattern baldness sufferers with no immune respponse?

1.SD doesn't need to target the follicle. Constant damage from a fungus can produce fibrosis, an increase in sebaceous gland sebum production, and an immune response. Technically, it can cause the entire male pattern baldness process to occur in the absence of any other influence. I'm sure that the defective androgen receptor has something to do with it. We'll just have to see where science takes us.

Doctor, " damage from a fungus can produce fibrosis" In a sd I don't think that the fungus does any damege, since people with no SD don't feel any harm and they do have the same fungus. It's just a stupid immune mishap.
I don't think male pattern baldness has anything to do with sd, since SD is something that affects the whole scalp, I itch also on my parts that will never go bald( back and sides of the scalp). If indeed the immune response that SD raises would kill fallicles, then all of the affected area whould go bald, but it doesn't.

and a question: Could you explain your way of lowering TGF beta and the dangers in such a move? I got hit by accutne and it may be somewhat reversible if I can lower tgf beta.

MB aka benji: How could MSM affect sebum levels? anyway I will begin using it, since it is easy to use in my army daily life.

ARMANDO : I didn't really get what you are saying, could you elaborate ?
 
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