Saw Palmetto?
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Side Show Bob
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SP works. I've been using it for years and I'm still a NW2.
http://www.hairloss-research.org/sawpalmetto.html
http://www.hairloss-research.org/sawpalmetto.html
A
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Alternatively, you could have said "SP doesn't work. I've been using it for years and im still a NW2".Side Show Bob said:
The bottom line on saw palmetto is this: There have not been any successful studies done showing it has any positive effects on hair loss when taken orally. Conversely, studies examining SP's effect on serum DHT reduction showed it failed to effectively reduce DHT levels outside the prostate to any significant extent. Lastly,y SP has just as many documented side effects as Propecia.
These three factors tend to push people away from saw palmetto as a hair loss treatment. It usually ends up being an issue of "Do I want to take the one without any success in studies but still potential for side effects? Or do I want to take the other one?"
In the 7 years I have run these forums I haven't heard any positive results from saw palmetto use alone. I hear endless reports of results from Propecia use alone however.
If some new information comes out regarding Saw Palmetto in the future, we will of course amend our position on it accordingly. Until then it has been established as an insufficient reducer of serum DHT.
By the way.......................
The study referenced in the previous post was debunked on national television in 2002 on the show called "20/20" as being incorrectly run. It involved only 10 people and only for a period of 3 months. Further, it was run by a man named Geno Marcovici who sells a saw palmetto hair tonic. They had him on the show, asked him why he conducted a study that is useless as far as proper protocol goes, and he sat there silent without response. Interesting to say the least.
This is why its important to know all the facts surrounding something - even a random link to a random study like you see above. Its funny they left out the "METHODS" section in that abstract. They have OBJECTIVES, BACKROUND, and CONCLUSIONS but completely removed "METHODS". This is the section where they explain that only 10 people were involved and the duration was only 3 months.
Those are the fact surrounding it. Its up to you to make your own decision. As mentioned, if new info comes out supporting it, we will support it as well. Its not an opinion thing, just an issue of knowing all the facts.
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Old Baldy
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This guy would disagree:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Pars ... etto'.ABST.)+OR+serenoa.ABST.)&OS=ABST/%22saw+palmetto%22+OR+ABST/serenoa&RS=(ABST/%22saw+palmetto%22+OR+ABST/serenoa)
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Pars ... etto'.ABST.)+OR+serenoa.ABST.)&OS=ABST/%22saw+palmetto%22+OR+ABST/serenoa&RS=(ABST/%22saw+palmetto%22+OR+ABST/serenoa)
A
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And here we are nearly 8 years later and he still hasn't cured hair loss or even created a product based on this patent. Its in the little details that the most information is found, proven again by looking at the date on the patent.
If you'd like I can link you to a patent whereby crystals will cure cancer. Exactly what was the point you were hoping to make?
I know people that will tell you the holocaust never happened and we've never stepped foot on the moon too.
Lots of people disagree with common sense and clinical data.
Some people prefer to live in the pre-rennaisance era where we burned witches, fell off the edge of the earth, and believed demons caused sneezing. As much as I disagree with many precepts of humanism, anti-religion, and staunch obsession with only the physical ... the enlightenment did give us the scientific method. I hope people may hop on board with the concept sometime soon too
Admin
If you'd like I can link you to a patent whereby crystals will cure cancer. Exactly what was the point you were hoping to make?
I know people that will tell you the holocaust never happened and we've never stepped foot on the moon too.
Lots of people disagree with common sense and clinical data.
Some people prefer to live in the pre-rennaisance era where we burned witches, fell off the edge of the earth, and believed demons caused sneezing. As much as I disagree with many precepts of humanism, anti-religion, and staunch obsession with only the physical ... the enlightenment did give us the scientific method. I hope people may hop on board with the concept sometime soon too
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Old Baldy
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The point I'm trying to make is that maybe saw palmetto as a topical is beneficial. Not a cureall but beneficial.
Alot of companies apparently agree with this because they include saw palmetto/beta sitosterol extracts in their topical treatments.
Btw, I've read ALOT of patents and no one has cured hair loss yet.
Oh, I forgot to mention that topical saw palmetto/beta sitosterol extracts have anti-inflammatory effects and offer some immune system support from what I've read. So putting it on your head won't hurt IMHO, in fact, it should help.
http://www.who.int/medicines/library/tr ... 0analysis'
Alot of companies apparently agree with this because they include saw palmetto/beta sitosterol extracts in their topical treatments.
Btw, I've read ALOT of patents and no one has cured hair loss yet.
Oh, I forgot to mention that topical saw palmetto/beta sitosterol extracts have anti-inflammatory effects and offer some immune system support from what I've read. So putting it on your head won't hurt IMHO, in fact, it should help.
http://www.who.int/medicines/library/tr ... 0analysis'
A
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By linking to a patent thats over 8 yrs old and was never turned in to a product? I guess I don't understand the facts you're using to make your point.Old Baldy said:
Every single snake oil on earth has SP in it. Only one legit potential treatment I know of contains it. Revivogen/Crinagen. Even they told me they included it only for marketing purposes. Just because the public is so confused about the topic that it made more sense to include it than to leave it out. Even they acknowledge its ineffectiveness.
LOL ... I know. Ergo --- they dont work. Again are you arguing in favor or against SP with these statements?
I've said this before and Ill say it again. I sat in front of Angela Christiano at Columbia University and was allowed to see into her private stash of Saw Palmetto trial results. The only significant SP trials I believe that have ever been attempted for hair loss. She flat out told me "It did absolutely nothing. No effect. Doesn't work." And she has every reason to say it does work. Her husband sells a Saw Palmetto treatment and has devoted his life to proving it works for hair loss.
That was enough for me to close the books on SP in my mind, until further data comes out backing it as a hair loss treatment.
And by the way, I am sure SP has many amazing properties to its effect on the body. Not surprisingly, those things have been proven in clinical trials. Go figure. But treating hair loss is not one of them. 100 studies for saw palmetto's benefit on the prostate. Entire magazines published surrounding the topic. Not a single study for hair loss. So use it if you want. But don't attempt to make any claims that it works or is even beneficial for hair loss.
I realize its harmless to "Try stuff". Its harmless to pee on your bald neighbors head, too. But whats the point of saying "it might help!" if you have no reason to believe that? We have no reason to believe that about SP, so we don't say it. We can debate based on conjecture and assumption or we can debate based on facts and failed trials. If we debate based on facts, then SP cannot be considered useful for hair loss.
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Side Show Bob
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Saw Palmetto DOES work for some people such as myself. But it's one of several things I use in my arsonal. Like all treatments, it's not perfect, but it does help me.
Oh, and btw. I was a NW2 in high school. SP was the only thing available back then. When I started using it, the terrible shedding I was experiencing, stopped almost overnight. I'm in my 40's now. Still a NW2.
I'd be much worse off now if I hadn't started using SP!!!
Oh, and btw. I was a NW2 in high school. SP was the only thing available back then. When I started using it, the terrible shedding I was experiencing, stopped almost overnight. I'm in my 40's now. Still a NW2.
I'd be much worse off now if I hadn't started using SP!!!
G
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Side Show Bob, it sounds like all you do is push SP. Maybe you sell the stuff? I recall hardly every seeing you post unless it was somthing about usiing SP. Actually, one of the last times i saw you post it was verrry similar to this.
Old Baldy
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LOL ... I know. Ergo --- they dont work. Again are you arguing in favor or against SP with these statements?Admin said:
I've said this before and Ill say it again. I sat in front of Angela Christiano at Columbia University and was allowed to see into her private stash of Saw Palmetto trial results. The only significant SP trials I believe that have ever been attempted for hair loss. She flat out told me "It did absolutely nothing. No effect. Doesn't work." And she has every reason to say it does work. Her husband sells a Saw Palmetto treatment and has devoted his life to proving it works for hair loss.
That was enough for me to close the books on SP in my mind, until further data comes out backing it as a hair loss treatment.
And by the way, I am sure SP has many amazing properties to its effect on the body. Not surprisingly, those things have been proven in clinical trials. Go figure. But treating hair loss is not one of them. 100 studies for saw palmetto's benefit on the prostate. Entire magazines published surrounding the topic. Not a single study for hair loss. So use it if you want. But don't attempt to make any claims that it works or is even beneficial for hair loss.
I realize its harmless to "Try stuff". Its harmless to pee on your bald neighbors head, too. But whats the point of saying "it might help!" if you have no reason to believe that? We have no reason to believe that about SP, so we don't say it. We can debate based on conjecture and assumption or we can debate based on facts and failed trials. If we debate based on facts, then SP cannot be considered useful for hair loss.
Admin[/quote:d0627]
Well I sure would like to see those studies! Where are they!? I view Dr. Chriastiano much the same as Dr. Sawaya. "Here today, gone tomorrow". Why such reliance on Dr. Chistiano? I know the facts about her but she isn't a Thomas Edison if you get my drift! Neither is Dr. Sawaya. "Flashes in the pan" IMHO.
Post the studies you so strongly rely upon. I posted a textbook excerpt and a patent, with examples, that show saw palmetto extract to be beneficial.
Try to be less emotional and more calm and logical. Your writing style on this subject clearly shows that you have a subjective objection to saw palmetto/beta sitosterol treatments.
Post studies and stop talking with so much emotion PLEASE!!!!!
I've read the studies showing serum dht levels aren't affected. I've read MANY abstracts and studies relative to SP and beta sisterol. I've posted those that CLEARLY state SP and beta sitosterol can be beneficial to scalp health. One of my posts appears to be from a TEXTBOOK!
Please post the sudies of the doctor you so heavily rely upon. Please tell us who those manufacturerse were who stated "we only put that stuff in our products for marketing purposes only". Please post what they base those marketing opinions on. Please provide a TEXTBOOK mention of SP and beta sitosterol not having a beneficial effect on inflammation and the immune system.
I mean you want us to believe that manufacturers have concluded that everyone has been duped into thinking SP and beta sitosterol are for regrowing hair. That's absolutely ridiculous!! Like you said, there aren't many studies. So why in the world would they put it in for marketing purposes only? You take 100 people and ask them the main purpose for SP and beta sitosterol and do you really think enough people would say "for hair loss" so it would make manufacturers automatically include it in their products to "just please us".
I'll bet most people would say those ingredients benefit the prostate. That's the COMMOM knowledge relative to SP and beta sitosterol.
I've posted the reason why I believe what I believe. Please calm down and post your authorities.
If you can't post those studies that show "nothing happened" then what are we supposed to really believe? If you can't post studies that show SP and beta sitosterol are NOT beneficial to scalp health then I suggest you .... well you're the Admin. I better watch what I say.
Maybe you should answer this question the way Doctor Proctor did years back:
Shinyscalp23
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sp
im your classic male pattern baldness dude...i even have an enlarged prostate and im only 23---thank you dht--saw palmetto works for me personally--for the prostate---and i dont care what anyone says--there simply havent been enough studies to determine a solid answer on this matter in terms of its potential preventative role for hair loss--now in and of itself saw palmetto prolly wont do much, just like nizoral in and of itself prolly wont do much but if you combine those two in a regimen that also includes minoxidil 5%, you may have something to work with...heres some more food for thought--anyone ever heard of pygeum? I picked some up at gnc along with zinc (which ive heard as well has antiandrogenetic properties). Ive heard pygeum is a dht inhibitor as well so ive included it in my regimen in the pst month or so....and if the word on saw palmetto is out-that it really isnt effective, what about pygeum?anyone know about that herb? that would be interesting to find out about---but for now im including both...since i cant find a goddamn dr to prescribe propecia for me...they just keep giving me antibiotics
im your classic male pattern baldness dude...i even have an enlarged prostate and im only 23---thank you dht--saw palmetto works for me personally--for the prostate---and i dont care what anyone says--there simply havent been enough studies to determine a solid answer on this matter in terms of its potential preventative role for hair loss--now in and of itself saw palmetto prolly wont do much, just like nizoral in and of itself prolly wont do much but if you combine those two in a regimen that also includes minoxidil 5%, you may have something to work with...heres some more food for thought--anyone ever heard of pygeum? I picked some up at gnc along with zinc (which ive heard as well has antiandrogenetic properties). Ive heard pygeum is a dht inhibitor as well so ive included it in my regimen in the pst month or so....and if the word on saw palmetto is out-that it really isnt effective, what about pygeum?anyone know about that herb? that would be interesting to find out about---but for now im including both...since i cant find a goddamn dr to prescribe propecia for me...they just keep giving me antibiotics
Side Show Bob
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Badasshairday,
No, I don't sell SP or any other suppliment or drug. I'm a contractor.
I've noticed, especially on this forum, that there is a closed-minded attitude towards SP.
It can help some people. It may not help others. Most treatments are like that. You have to attack hairloss from many different angles. I also use Oz Brew, but there are plenty of people who immediately attack that as well.
All I'm saying to everyone is to try and keep an open mind. Just because you can't trot out enough studies to heat Bryan's home for a winter, doesn't mean a particular treatment doesn't work.
If I had a dollar for every study that grows hair on a mouses back, I could retire. The true test is how it works for people. And that will vary from one person to the next. Everyone is different.
No, I don't sell SP or any other suppliment or drug. I'm a contractor.
I've noticed, especially on this forum, that there is a closed-minded attitude towards SP.
It can help some people. It may not help others. Most treatments are like that. You have to attack hairloss from many different angles. I also use Oz Brew, but there are plenty of people who immediately attack that as well.
All I'm saying to everyone is to try and keep an open mind. Just because you can't trot out enough studies to heat Bryan's home for a winter, doesn't mean a particular treatment doesn't work.
If I had a dollar for every study that grows hair on a mouses back, I could retire. The true test is how it works for people. And that will vary from one person to the next. Everyone is different.
Cornholio
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I think there is a healthy respect on this board for "evidence," and that that is why most people here rally around the accepted treatments (if they take the time to look into it). "Keeping and opened mind" can be used by snake-oil salesmen to keep their foot in the door in the 21st century when in fact their products have no evidence to back them up. Since there are studies showing the limits of Saw Palmetto, AND there are other products shown to be effective, it is hard to understand why Saw Palmetto should be spared criticism (or at least discribed with a different level of confidence than more traditional treatments). If you take it understanding the lack of evidence that's ok, but to promote it against things with evidence behind them (regarding hair count or thickness of the shaft) deserves feedback...
You can find studies that show that SawPalmetto does NOT affect serum DHT levels, meaning it is not in the same class as propecia as a 5-AR blocker.
It has other anti-androgen properties in the test-tube and does affect the prostate, but it is an unproven assumption that it will grow hair. There are no studies (beyond a few month study of 10 men by a Saw Palmetto distributor) that claim to prove that Saw Palmetto helps hair. There aren't even studies to show it grows hair on the back of a mouse (or a bald monkey).
Im not saying "don't take Saw Palmetto." Im just saying understand that if you take it, it is based on hope that it works rather than evidence that it works. Hope is good. I think herbal medications contain cures for many problems, but that if they help evidence can and should be presented to back up the claims (just as you expect for traditional medicines). Saying "I dont have evidence but It might work, I think it works and many people surveyed think it might works" puts it in the same class of hair treatments as shaving your head to encourage hair growth.
You can find studies that show that SawPalmetto does NOT affect serum DHT levels, meaning it is not in the same class as propecia as a 5-AR blocker.
It has other anti-androgen properties in the test-tube and does affect the prostate, but it is an unproven assumption that it will grow hair. There are no studies (beyond a few month study of 10 men by a Saw Palmetto distributor) that claim to prove that Saw Palmetto helps hair. There aren't even studies to show it grows hair on the back of a mouse (or a bald monkey).
Im not saying "don't take Saw Palmetto." Im just saying understand that if you take it, it is based on hope that it works rather than evidence that it works. Hope is good. I think herbal medications contain cures for many problems, but that if they help evidence can and should be presented to back up the claims (just as you expect for traditional medicines). Saying "I dont have evidence but It might work, I think it works and many people surveyed think it might works" puts it in the same class of hair treatments as shaving your head to encourage hair growth.
Doppleganger
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badasshairday said:
LOL.
So you don't agree with someone's opinion about SP, therefore he must be pushing the stuff right?
Yup, I guess he must be!
Old Baldy
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I agree with the naysayers relative to SP extract and beta sitosterol (probably) not being very effective for dht inhibition in the scalp and follicle. They do have some anti-inflammatory effect, immune system benefits and do have anti-androgenic properties. It's just something to add to your homemade topicals that might help. It isn't on par with the big 3, etc., but it should help us getting our scalps in healthy condition.
Here's a brief statement by Doctor Pickart:
If you read the above links I posted (in previous posts) you might think about putting SP extract in your homemade topicals. Oh heck, even taking them orally couldn't hurt. Might even help some guys? (One of the links I posted previously briefly mentioned a topical SP extract test [i.e., a 90 percent ethanol solution] and it reduced inflammation.)
However, it shouldn't replace the "big guns" IMHO. It's just another addition to our arsenals.
Also, remember, all of us men could very well develop prostate problems as we get older. SP and beta-sitosterol can really help with that ailment.
Here's a brief statement by Doctor Pickart:
If you read the above links I posted (in previous posts) you might think about putting SP extract in your homemade topicals. Oh heck, even taking them orally couldn't hurt. Might even help some guys? (One of the links I posted previously briefly mentioned a topical SP extract test [i.e., a 90 percent ethanol solution] and it reduced inflammation.)
However, it shouldn't replace the "big guns" IMHO. It's just another addition to our arsenals.
Also, remember, all of us men could very well develop prostate problems as we get older. SP and beta-sitosterol can really help with that ailment.
iamnaked
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It is a riddle as to why something which outperforms finasteride in vitro can not work so well in vivo, but the results do not lie. If SP worked, by God we'd be hearing about it. SP was the first hairloss med that I took, and I used it for 2 years straight *without any other stuff to affect my results* and in my opinion it did not do anything to stop my receding.
Shinyscalp23
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the saw palmetto debate
I personally feel that none of us know for sure the truth-NONE of us..for me, the jury is NOT out on saw palmetto-as even my dermatologist recommended I took it for my hair loss and was outright against propecia-then again, my dermatologist sucks..lol-nevertheless we never know-due to the fact that i cant find a dr to prescribe propecia for me-ill stick to saw palmetto--I wanted to mention a few things here-I read in one of the posts that revivogen/crinagen was a legit treatment--sorry..the only legit treatments out there are minoxidil, propecia, and nizoral-and they themselves offer minimal to modest benefits in and of themselves for most of us...and ofcourse, hair transplants or scalp reduction-those are the treatments--everythng else is up in the air and has no solid evidence to back it. BUT that does NOT mean they do not work. Everyone is different-period..nevertheless--ive read some conflictual stuff here--i even read somewhere on here that saw palmetto might give you an unnecessary shed--well, if it causes shedding for some people, then I guess it must do something to your hair-secondly, as ive said before..wouldnt it make sense, that, by reducing the dht in your prostate, you are by default, over time, reducing overall levels in your body?Yes. Will Sp do much in and of itself?probably not. could it help?definitely Would nizoral do much in and of itself?probably not..I dont even know why its considered a part of the big 3..theres evidence but the study is limited. SP is probably beneficial if used in conjunction with the proven treatments but in and of itself wont do much, just like nizoral...heres another thing for those of us who use SP...instead of taking one 180 mg pill 2x a day--take 2 once a day--bigger shock to the dht--and incorporate pygeum-another herbal dht inhibitor-and add zinc supplements---add whatever natural dht inhibitor is out there in the ideal circumstance--i just stick to saw palmetto, pumpkin seed oil, zinc, and pygeum...woud they do much by themselves?probably not..but they cant hurt...and for those studies out there-disregard them--just because something is on a website does not make it conclusive--there is no hardcore longterm study representative of a diverse group of people to make the data conclusively for or against SP--or nizoral for that matter-and heres some food for thought?for most of us, do any of the proven treatments do much for us?NO--at best most of us will maintain what we have and regrow alittle and a tiny few of us will exp moderate to dense regrowth-and some of us wont even get that-and some of us wont even be able to tell if the minoxidil is working or not simply because its often hard to tell-until you stop using it-that it worked at all...there is no treatment out there that promises great cosmetic results like surgery(yes ive heard horror stories but a good dr can do a good job), and thats just the sorry reality for most of the population-so i say continue using sp but dont have much hope for it...but i say the same hting for minoxidil, nizoral, and propecia as well.
I personally feel that none of us know for sure the truth-NONE of us..for me, the jury is NOT out on saw palmetto-as even my dermatologist recommended I took it for my hair loss and was outright against propecia-then again, my dermatologist sucks..lol-nevertheless we never know-due to the fact that i cant find a dr to prescribe propecia for me-ill stick to saw palmetto--I wanted to mention a few things here-I read in one of the posts that revivogen/crinagen was a legit treatment--sorry..the only legit treatments out there are minoxidil, propecia, and nizoral-and they themselves offer minimal to modest benefits in and of themselves for most of us...and ofcourse, hair transplants or scalp reduction-those are the treatments--everythng else is up in the air and has no solid evidence to back it. BUT that does NOT mean they do not work. Everyone is different-period..nevertheless--ive read some conflictual stuff here--i even read somewhere on here that saw palmetto might give you an unnecessary shed--well, if it causes shedding for some people, then I guess it must do something to your hair-secondly, as ive said before..wouldnt it make sense, that, by reducing the dht in your prostate, you are by default, over time, reducing overall levels in your body?Yes. Will Sp do much in and of itself?probably not. could it help?definitely Would nizoral do much in and of itself?probably not..I dont even know why its considered a part of the big 3..theres evidence but the study is limited. SP is probably beneficial if used in conjunction with the proven treatments but in and of itself wont do much, just like nizoral...heres another thing for those of us who use SP...instead of taking one 180 mg pill 2x a day--take 2 once a day--bigger shock to the dht--and incorporate pygeum-another herbal dht inhibitor-and add zinc supplements---add whatever natural dht inhibitor is out there in the ideal circumstance--i just stick to saw palmetto, pumpkin seed oil, zinc, and pygeum...woud they do much by themselves?probably not..but they cant hurt...and for those studies out there-disregard them--just because something is on a website does not make it conclusive--there is no hardcore longterm study representative of a diverse group of people to make the data conclusively for or against SP--or nizoral for that matter-and heres some food for thought?for most of us, do any of the proven treatments do much for us?NO--at best most of us will maintain what we have and regrow alittle and a tiny few of us will exp moderate to dense regrowth-and some of us wont even get that-and some of us wont even be able to tell if the minoxidil is working or not simply because its often hard to tell-until you stop using it-that it worked at all...there is no treatment out there that promises great cosmetic results like surgery(yes ive heard horror stories but a good dr can do a good job), and thats just the sorry reality for most of the population-so i say continue using sp but dont have much hope for it...but i say the same hting for minoxidil, nizoral, and propecia as well.
Cornholio
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Re: the saw palmetto debate
A dermatologist who recommended saw-palmetto over propecia should be asked for studies to back up his opinion. Just a reminder, though, that you can get these meds online... http://www.unitedpharmacies.com/Hair_page_1_c_3.html If you really want to.
Im not against alternative meds and may try some chinese herbals, but I wouldnt make them the cornerstone of my treatment plan.
Shinyscalp23 said:
A dermatologist who recommended saw-palmetto over propecia should be asked for studies to back up his opinion. Just a reminder, though, that you can get these meds online... http://www.unitedpharmacies.com/Hair_page_1_c_3.html If you really want to.
Im not against alternative meds and may try some chinese herbals, but I wouldnt make them the cornerstone of my treatment plan.