Propecia versus Rogaine: some direct comparisons!

[Bryan]

Jack posed the following question in another thread, and I'm starting a new thread on it because it's an interesting topic:

Bryan how do those results comapre to fins results wasnt finasteride more like 10 percent improvment as opposed to the 35. keeping in mind tht finasteride is more of a maintaince drug. Do you care to speculate on what the percent improvment would of been if they were using finasteride aswell? 45 percent improvment? thanks.

I'll speculate on that second one first: the stumptailed macaque study which examined the simultaneous use of topical minoxidil and oral finasteride found that the results seemed to be additive (as opposed to synergistic), so I personally would assume that it would be the same for humans, until I see evidence to the contrary.

Now I'm going to present the definitive evidence for how Propecia and Rogaine compare with each other, in both hairCOUNTS and hairWEIGHTS! For you skeptics out there, be aware that this information is from two different studies, but they were done by the same researcher (Dr. Vera Price), and they used exactly the same method of performing the counts and weights and lasted for the same amount of time (96 weeks). Here are the full citations for the two studies:

"Changes in Hair Weight and Hair Count in Men with Androgenetic Alopecia, after Application of 5% and 2% Topical Minoxidil, Placebo, or No Treatment", Price et al J Am Acad Dermatol 1999;41: 717-21.

"Changes in Hair Weight and Hair Count in Men with Androgenetic Alopecia after Treatment with Finasteride, 1 mg, Daily", Price et al, J Am Acad Dermatol 2002;46: 517-23.

Here is the data for counts and weights for both drugs, at both the 48 week and 96 week points. Please note that the values for finasteride are EXACT, because Dr. Price actually reported the exact numbers in the text of that particular study. However, she didn't do that in the earlier topical minoxidil study, she just showed the graphs which I've have scanned and posted several times. Therefore, the numbers for minoxidil are what I have carefully estimated from those graphs (you can double-check my numbers by estimating them from the graph for yourself...all numbers are in reference to the original starting baseline):

Hair COUNTS

2% minoxidil, 48 weeks: +26% (estimated from graph)
2% minoxidil, 96 weeks: +24% (estimated from graph)

5% minoxidil, 48 weeks: +32% (estimated from graph)
5% minoxidil, 96 weeks: +30% (estimated from graph)

finasteride, 48 weeks: +12.4% (exact figure reported by Price)
finasteride, 96 weeks: +9.1% (exact figure reported by Price)


Hair WEIGHTS

2% minoxidil, 48 weeks: +23% (estimated from graph)
2% minoxidil, 96 weeks: +14% (estimated from graph)

5% minoxidil, 48 weeks: +32% (estimated from graph)
5% minoxidil, 96 weeks: +20% (estimated from graph)

finasteride, 48 weeks: +20.4% (exact figure reported by Price)
finasteride, 96 weeks: +21.5% (exact figure reported by Price)


After a careful examination of those numbers, the following facts appear obvious: 1) finasteride is relatively better at improving hair WEIGHTS than hair COUNTS, whereas minoxidil is relatively better at improving hair COUNTS than hair WEIGHTS; 2) minoxidil is better than finasteride in both areas (weights and counts) during the first year or so, but finasteride eventually "catches up" to minoxidil in total hair weight per unit area of scalp by the time a couple of years have passed; and 3) this data supports what I've been saying for a long time: minoxidil is relatively more effective at stimulating hairgrowth than finasteride per unit area of scalp, but it probably doesn't interfere with the fundamental balding process like finasteride does, which explains why finasteride will eventually "catch up" and surpass minoxidil after a period of time.

Questions? Comments? Flames?

Bryan

 

[Guest]

Very imformative...

good post.

 

[too bald too furious]

Thanks a lot Bryan...you rock unk:

Although not related to this, may I ask what happens if a user quits Finasteride say 5 years after using it?

I mean ideally the DHT will start affecting follicles again after quitting Finasteride and balding process should start from the point where the user had started taking Finasteride from.

But on Propecia's website they say that all gains will be lost in 1 year? :x

Any comments?

Thanks again

 

[Guest]

My first born shall be known as 'Bryan' and if it's a girl 'Bryan'.

 

[yuppy75]

Very informative, and thanks for the info, would be VERY curious to see the results of the 4th group though

______
"Changes in Hair Weight and Hair Count in Men with Androgenetic Alopecia, after Application of 5% and 2% Topical Minoxidil, Placebo or No Treatment", Price et al J Am Acad Dermatol 1999;41: 717-21.
________
[/b]

 

[Bryan]

Very informative, and thanks for the info, would be VERY curious to see the results of the 4th group though

______
"Changes in Hair Weight and Hair Count in Men with Androgenetic Alopecia, after Application of 5% and 2% Topical Minoxidil, Placebo or No Treatment", Price et al J Am Acad Dermatol 1999;41: 717-21.
________

You mean the "No Treatment" group? They were in a statistical dead-heat with the placebo group...

Bryan

 

[Guest]

Bryan I am sticking these figures into a graph as these things tend to be more digestable when visualized, so do you have any figures for the Placebo or No Treatment from the same trials?


cheers

Ty

 

[Bryan]

Although not related to this, may I ask what happens if a user quits Finasteride say 5 years after using it?

Results will decline back to the same level as the placebo or no-treatment groups.

I mean ideally the DHT will start affecting follicles again after quitting Finasteride and balding process should start from the point where the user had started taking Finasteride from.

Well, there's always been a lively debate over that particular issue. Does balding pick-up EXACTLY with the same speed from where it left off when you began finasteride, or does it actually accelerate a little to "catch up"? The evidence from the original large Propecia trial shows that in the group who used finasteride for a full year and then were switched over to placebo for the second year, those guys had an actual STEEPER decline in haircounts than in the placebo group who never got the active drug at all!

But on Propecia's website they say that all gains will be lost in 1 year?

The haircount data from that large Propecia trial show that after 1 full year, that same group (the ones who were switched over from the active drug to the placebo) had dropped below their original starting baseline after 1 year, but they were still a little above the group that had been getting placebo for the full 2 years. So based just on that, I'd say that it takes a little longer than a year to lose all your gains completely and get all the way back to where you WOULD have been without the drug.

BTW, it's an even FASTER process when you quit using minoxidil! :x

Bryan

 

[yuppy75]

Very informative, and thanks for the info, would be VERY curious to see the results of the 4th group though

______
"Changes in Hair Weight and Hair Count in Men with Androgenetic Alopecia, after Application of 5% and 2% Topical Minoxidil, Placebo or No Treatment", Price et al J Am Acad Dermatol 1999;41: 717-21.
________

You mean the "No Treatment" group? They were in a statistical dead-heat with the placebo group...

Bryan

Yeah, but what were their results?

 

[circusrat]

Awesome post.

Really puts minoxidil in the limelight. I'd say Finasteride is kind of underwhelming, except for the fact that it holds effectiveness longer.

I'm thinning at the temples and have been using minoxidil 5% on them for about 3 weeks now. This data is encouraging that i'll get new, thicker hair back in those regions if I stick with it.

Because my balding is limited to the front - i've been hesitant to start taking finasteride, because of the side effects and cost. This data supports that idea even more.

Now a third study conducted on people using both, that would be the bees knees.

 

[Bryan]

Very informative, and thanks for the info, would be VERY curious to see the results of the 4th group though

______
"Changes in Hair Weight and Hair Count in Men with Androgenetic Alopecia, after Application of 5% and 2% Topical Minoxidil, Placebo or No Treatment", Price et al J Am Acad Dermatol 1999;41: 717-21.
________

You mean the "No Treatment" group? They were in a statistical dead-heat with the placebo group...

Yeah, but what were their results?

Here, check for yourself...this is an actual scan of two of the graphs from that study, including the hairCOUNTS and hairWEIGHTS for topical minoxidil from which I estimated the numbers in my main post. You can also see visually how well the placebo and "no treatment" groups did:

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/quitting-minoxidil.htm

Bryan

 

[Buffboy]

Awesome post.

Really puts minoxidil in the limelight. I'd say Finasteride is kind of underwhelming, except for the fact that it holds effectiveness longer.

I'm thinning at the temples and have been using minoxidil 5% on them for about 3 weeks now. This data is encouraging that i'll get new, thicker hair back in those regions if I stick with it.

Because my balding is limited to the front - i've been hesitant to start taking finasteride, because of the side effects and cost. This data supports that idea even more.

Now a third study conducted on people using both, that would be the bees knees.

You misunderstand what minoxidil and finasteride do.

minoxidil: Will give you MORE regrowth, BUT you will continue to bald! Meaning new hairs will come out, but others will succumb to hairloss.

finasteride: Generally not impressive regrowth, BUT you will NOT continue to bald.

So if you want to keep your hair - finasteride is your call. If you want to keep what you got AND get regrowth, then the combo is what you want. Never use minoxidil alone, that's like pissing in your pants.

 

[Bryan]

Bryan I am sticking these figures into a graph as these things tend to be more digestable when visualized, so do you have any figures for the Placebo or No Treatment from the same trials?

Tynan, I'll try to get that information to you in the next day or two, although you can get at least SOME of it yourself directly from the scan which I just posted again.

I also want to get you a scan of the haircount graph from the original large Propecia trial, because it has the one that shows what happens when you stop taking Propecia for a year. You were talking about incorporating THAT one into your own graph also, a while back... In fact, now that I think about it, that's already been posted before! "Peter Mac" just posted it two or three days ago over on HLH, as a matter of fact. It's the one showing the results for Propecia stretched out to 5 years. You know what I'm talking about? Have you seen that one yourself? It includes the "quitting finasteride" line...

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

Awesome post.

Really puts minoxidil in the limelight. I'd say Finasteride is kind of underwhelming, except for the fact that it holds effectiveness longer.

I'm thinning at the temples and have been using minoxidil 5% on them for about 3 weeks now. This data is encouraging that i'll get new, thicker hair back in those regions if I stick with it.

Because my balding is limited to the front - i've been hesitant to start taking finasteride, because of the side effects and cost. This data supports that idea even more.

Now a third study conducted on people using both, that would be the bees knees.

You misunderstand what minoxidil and finasteride do.

minoxidil: Will give you MORE regrowth, BUT you will continue to bald! Meaning new hairs will come out, but others will succumb to hairloss.

finasteride: Generally not impressive regrowth, BUT you will NOT continue to bald.

So if you want to keep your hair - finasteride is your call. If you want to keep what you got AND get regrowth, then the combo is what you want. Never use minoxidil alone, that's like pissing in your pants.

I was also a little puzzled by what "circusrat" said. I've said for a long time that minoxidil is better in the short-term (per unit area of scalp), and finasteride is better in the long-term. Isn't the LONG-TERM more important than the SHORT-TERM?

Of course, using both is the best option of all!

Bryan

 

[Guest]

 

[freudling]

Good post, but please, why kiss a balding guy named "Bryan's" ***. Who cares. A monkey could interpret that data.

 

[Guest]

Good post, but please, why kiss a balding guy named "Bryan's" ***. Who cares. A monkey could interpret that data.

Have you seen Bryan's '***'? I am sure if you had you too would be puckering up.

And I do believe that Bryan has a number of small simian assistants doing his data interpretation.

 

[Bismarck]

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

 

[Old Baldy]

Thanks for the info. Bryan. Good graph Tynan.

 

[sick~lee]

long time lurking.....first time poster......so forgive me if this question has been repeated often......

if you take both......finasteride maintains......minoxidil regrows...........

if say.......you regrow to the point you want with minoxidil.......could you stop minoxidil at that point.....and finasteride would maintain what minoxidil regrew?