propecia dht question

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Alright propecia only blocks like 80 percent of dht for balding guys right? The level of dht for balding guys is way higher then the average guy with no hair loss. So my question is how much dht would be ok to block and still be able to function normally and have no problems? Wouldn't the remaining dht that propecia does not get be enough dht for your body?
 

Mr T.

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Propecia lowers serum DHT levels by about 70% I think.

Bald guys do not necessarily have high DHT levels. The average balding guy MIGHT have SLIGHTLY higher DHT levels, but that was never proven conclusively. It's not a major factor in my opinion. The far larger probably is androgen sensitivity.

As for the DHT you have left in your body when taking Propecia, that may or may not be enough for YOU. Everyone's different. Personally, I'm not comfortable with lowering DHT by that much. DHT is an important hormone.

Hope that helps.

Jeremy
 
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Thanks for the explanation it was pretty good. But I just notice how a lot of guys on this forum take propecia and it seems like it is just not enough for them. But this forum seems to be the majority of guys who take propecia. But its the opposite, the people on this forum are only a small fraction of people who actually use propecia.

It just seems that even if you take propecia and it will lower your dht level by 70 percent, it seems that a good amount of dht is still left in your body. It seems to some guys on this forum that propecia is not powerfull enough.

I know a couple guys who use propecia and it seems like it doesn't really do anything for them. They have no side effects or noticeable difference in their hair.

Its just that I have a ton of vellus hair in my temple area and I dont see them getting stonger. Some actually are getting stronger and longer but others are not. I just dont want to lose those hairs because I didn't start taking propecia when I should of. If I could thicken those hairs up I would have my original perfect hairline back.

I just dont want to start taking propecia in a year or 2 and blow my chance of getting those hairs back and my original hairline when I could of. I kinda dont know what to do because everyone has scattered opinions.
 
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And I talked to 2 doctors briefly about this and they where more worried about the long term side effects of propecia and not short term. Long term side effects like 20 years down the road.

But people on this forum said 5mg proscar has been around for 30 years and nobody has complained about the more potent proscar. This issue with me and propecia is kinda like a splinter in my mind. I just dont know what to do. I dont know if I should use it just for a year then switch to a topical dht inhibitor.
 
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My doctor is making me have a blood test every 3 weeks for the next 4 months to monitor my Tcells or some sh*t because of the powerfull anti inflammitory drugs they are giving me. I think next test I have done I will request to see how high my dht levels are.
 

Bryan

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I want to throw in one minor comment of my own: people like to throw around that 70% serum DHT reduction figure from Propecia, but keep in mind that most of the remaining 30% is from 5a-reductase type 1, which is probably considerably less strongly associated with balding. The DHT that has the most direct, harmful effect on the hair follicle comes from the type 2 enzyme in the dermal papilla, and Propecia probably inhibits about 85%-90% of that enzyme.

Bryan
 
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But some guys have been taking proscar and havent had any noticeable side effects for years. My question is does it matter if you block 80-90 percent of that enzyme? What happens if you block it? Bryan I know you read a ton of clinical trail studys and all these statistics. What do you think about blocking this 80-90 percent of this enzyme?
 

Bryan

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Well, people keep pointing out that we don't know for sure the long-term effects of doing that, so I'll keep pointing out that we DO have a real-world example of that in Nature, and that's those pseudohermaphrodites in the Dominican Republic. They're deficient in the type 2 enzyme their entire lives (from birth to death), and they seem to be pretty healthy! In fact, they never lose their hair from male pattern baldness, and their prostates never enlarge, and they apparently don't get prostate cancer!

For anyone who hasn't seen these before, here are some pics of these fascinating individuals that were published in a medical journal:

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/pse ... rodite.htm

Bryan
 
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Thats very interesting. If I where to go on that it seems like it would be ok to take propecia.

I can either take propecia and get that splinter out of my mind. And probley get decent hair results with propecia and maybe change my hormone levels.

Or I can not take propecia and have regular hormones but maybe be balding a couple years down the road again.

So my question is. Would it matter if your hormones where a little of balanced? I mean what would it do? I mean why would it matter if your hormones arent completely balanced? I dont think it would actually do anything. Maybe I might have sexual side effects but lets hope not.

Also I am pretty developed and have facail hair and all that stuff except I dont have 100 percent chest hair. I know dht is involved in body hair. So if I took propecia would it prevent me from developing chest hair? My personal opinion is you would probley get the body hair anyways. Cause a lot of hairy guys would use propecia if it stopped body hair from developing.

In the examples you posted Bryan it says the males with no DHT really have no facial hair. And the normal male has a full beard and hairline recession. But it doesnt mention if they have body hair at all? They cant develop body hair? They never got a beard or any type of body hair?
 
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I dunno. I think I am gunna have my dht and hormone levels tested when I get a blood test next time. I will be getting blood tests for the next couple months so maybe I can take propecia and just monitor how I am responding to it. Just depends how high my hormone levels are.
 

powersam

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i was under the impression that type 1 was far more prevalent in the scalp than type 2 , and also the major contributor in the degradation of follicles
 
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And isnt the type one enzyme associated with body hair growth? So type 2 is associated with balding?

Or is type 2 associated with body hair growth and balding?
 

Bryan

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Type 1 is more prevalent in scalp/skin (thanks to the rich amounts of type 1 5a-reductase in sebaceous glands), but it's still the type 2 enzyme which is most responsible for hairloss. The evidence for that is that specific type 2 inhibitors (finasteride) obviously work against hairloss, but specific type 1 inhibitors (MK386 is an example) don't. Furthermore, the pseudohermaphrodites have normal levels of type 1, but lack the type 2 enzyme.

Here's a study which tested MK386 in stumptailed macaques: "Effects of 1 Year Treatment With Oral MK386, an Inhibitor of Type 1 5alpha-Reductase, in the Stumptail Macaque (Macaca Arctoides)". Linda Rhodes, et al. The abstract for this study was published in The Journal of Investigative Dermatology, 1995; 104:658. Hair and blood samples were collected from these animals for a total of 19 months; 7 months baseline, and 12 months on treatment. MK386, a specific 5AR type 1 inhibitor, caused a 30% to 50% decrease in serum DHT, but hair weights were similar in both treatment and placebo groups after a full year of treatment. This contrasts with a previous study using macaques and finasteride which showed hair weight increases after only six months of treatment.


And here's something John Ertel posted several years ago about HUMAN testing with MK386:

MK-386 under study for hair loss confirmed

By John Ertel
August 19, 1997

In an article shortly to be posted to alt.baldspot, it is confirmed that
Merck's research drug, MK-386, is currently being tested for hair loss. In
fact, the article is not new, but from 1995, so MK-386 has been in testing
for hair loss for over 2 years.

According to the article's conclusion, "MK-386... has been identified as a
potent type 1 selective inhibitor demonstrating time dependent kinetics.
Good bioavailability and a lack of significant safety liabilities have enabled
human clinical studies for acne and androgenic alopecia, which are
in progress" (Italics and bolding added).

Regrowth! has obtained information which will be posted shortly
regarding MK-386. It is not clear whether MK-386 has been continued in
hair loss trials. One statement obtained by Regrowth! from a 1995
convention for the Society of Investigative Dermatology states that at the
end of a one year trial, patients of MK-386 had no increase in hair weight.
This may support the theory that inhibition or removal of type 1 5-alpha
reductase alone is not enough to halt hair loss or regrow hair. Individuals
who have type 1 5-alpha reductase (the enzyme located in the skin and
hair follicles) but not type 2 5-alpha reductase (located primarily in the
prostate and liver) never go bald. When administered DHT, these
individuals do go bald. This indicates that for hair loss, either type 2
5-alpha reductase specifically plays a role in hair loss, or the total amount
of circulating DHT plays the initiating role in hair loss. Since type 2
creates about 2/3-3/4 of the circulating DHT in the body and type 1
creates only about 1/4-1/3, this may explain why Proscar, which inhibits
primarily type 2 5-alpha reductase is fairly effective at preventing hair loss
and regrowing hair and why MK-386, which inhibits type-1 alone, may not
be. MK-386 may still be an effective treatment for acne and skin sebum
production, which is more closely related to the DHT produced in the skin
itself.

Regrowth! is attempted to contact Merck through a physician to discover
the status of MK-386 in regards to hair loss. Perhaps the rumors that
they are in talks to purchase RU58841 from Roussel Uclaf are true and
caused by the fact that type-1 specific inhibitors which they have
developed are not panning out as hair loss treatments and RU58841 is
needed as their 'next generation' of hair loss treatments.
 

Mr T.

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Sure those guys with 5ar2 deficiency are healthy, but don't they have all sorts of sexual problems?
 
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So the phermapherdites or whatever dont have the type 2 enzyme and have normal levels of type 1.

They dont have the type 2 enzyme which causes hairloss, body hair growth, facial hair, pubic hair, chest hair, and which is responsible for sexual function.

It says in the example that the normal male without the disease has a full beard and hairline recession when the ones who dont have the type 2 enzyme have no hairloss and no beard.

But it wasent very clear.

But you didnt answer my question though.

Do they have normal sex drives?

Do they have body hair, pubic hair, chest hair? It fails 2 mention that in the article. And why are they more muscular?

Propecia only blocks 60-80 percent of the type 2 enzyme (says on their site) and yet some guys continue to loss hair and have sexual side effects.

Thats why I am interested to see that these hermapherdites or whatever which dont have that enzyme at all, if they have body hair and sex drives and so forth.

It seems they are just fine without the type 2 enzyme.
 

powersam

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ive gone all this time with it all backward then. but i spose the psuedohermaphrodites prove it. i guess this is why dutasteride not much better for hairloss than finasteride then , because they block basically the same amount of type 2 , and the fact that dutasteride blocks shiteloads of type 1 is irrelevant. i now have to search around for where i read that it was type 2. bet it was hairsite.com
 

coffee

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that's damn interesting bryan. do you have the entire article/study/report on the psuedohermaphrodites by any chance?
 

Bryan

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coffee said:
that's damn interesting bryan. do you have the entire article/study/report on the psuedohermaphrodites by any chance?

The one that those pictures are taken from? Yes, I have the full article. I also have the original 1974 article from the journal Nature which first reported about the pseudohermaphrodites, and two or three other articles since then which have compared the hormonal profiles of the pseudo's with those of finasteride users. As you would expect, hormone levels of those two groups are quite similar! :)

Bryan
 

Bryan

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Mr T. said:
Sure those guys with 5ar2 deficiency are healthy, but don't they have all sorts of sexual problems?

Well, they obviously have problems prior to puberty, since most are mistakenly raised as girls up to that point. But I'm really not sure about how they fare after they make their transition to obvious manhood AFTER puberty, and that's because I haven't seen any in-depth reports about that yet. About the only thing I've seen about that in the four or five articles I have is that they have "a libido directed at females".

Bryan
 

Bryan

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YoungGuy17 said:
But you didnt answer my question though.
Do they have normal sex drives?

As far as I know, but I'd like to see a more comprehensive report on that.

YoungGuy17 said:
Do they have body hair, pubic hair, chest hair? It fails 2 mention that in the article.

They do have those things, but it's more sparse than in normal men.

YoungGuy17 said:
And why are they more muscular?

I suspect that they probably aren't more muscular, on average. Those particular guys were certainly in good shape, though. That's relevant because some finasteride users have worried that the sharp decline in DHT might have an adverse effect on muscles. That now appears not to be the case.

YoungGuy17 said:
Propecia only blocks 60-80 percent of the type 2 enzyme (says on their site)...

Are you sure it says that? Can you quote the exact passage for me?

Bryan
 
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