New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

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benjt

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squeegee, would you please be so kind as to photo-document your state, starting with the first application of the derma roller, like one photo every month?

@odalbak: I dont know how to get my hands on a derma roller where I live, but I'll try obtaining one. Meanwhile, I'll stick to my black tea + pomegranate + omega 3 diet, plus zinc shampoo, until I recovered from the minoxidil sides (which I will hopefully within 6 months).
 

squeegee

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I just rolled it! My head is bleeding ..did a good ****ing job.. next time a need a mouth guard or numb cream.. feels like a tattoo machine drilling your head... i didnt miss a spot that is for sure.. temple are the worst.. your face cringe and you cry almost lol... you have to go fast and steady just like taking a band aid off. lol
 

Mikazz

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I just rolled it! My head is bleeding ..did a good ****ing job.. next time a need a mouth guard or numb cream.. feels like a tattoo machine drilling your head... i didnt miss a spot that is for sure.. temple are the worst.. your face cringe and you cry almost lol... you have to go fast and steady just like taking a band aid off. lol

And they said it was painless :D (maybe for the smaller ones...)

I'm still waiting my roller and I'm not sure I will appreciate the pain. I hope it is worthy!
 

squeegee

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And they said it was painless :D (maybe for the smaller ones...)

I'm still waiting my roller and I'm not sure I will appreciate the pain. I hope it is worthy!

LOL! a trick is just after a shower when the skin is softer... I just did it with 2 beers in with a towel in my mouth lol.. but rolled it! I went crazy! **** fibrosis and hairloss! My head looks like an over cooked pop tart! lol

http://www.ijtrichology.com/article...lume=5;issue=1;spage=6;epage=11;aulast=Dhurat
 

odalbak

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temple are the worst..

Aren't your temples more affected by male pattern baldness than the rest? To me that confirms that the skin thickness in the environment of the follicles is a crucial factor in male pattern baldness. On my scalp and I guess everyone's the baldest zones are the ones with tightest skin (temples and vertex). I'm not referring to the galea as the initial culprit of male pattern baldness but pointing at the idea that hypoxia due to tight skin speeds up the process. With loose skin all over the scalp the male pattern baldness process would be much slower and we may never have to deal with male pattern baldness or maybe just late in life, inspite of high dht presence.
 

squeegee

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Aren't your temples more affected by male pattern baldness than the rest? To me that confirms that the skin thickness in the environment of the follicles is a crucial factor in male pattern baldness. On my scalp and I guess everyone's the baldest zones are the ones with tightest skin (temples and vertex). I'm not referring to the galea as the initial culprit of male pattern baldness but pointing at the idea that hypoxia due to tight skin speeds up the process. With loose skin all over the scalp the male pattern baldness process would be much slower and we may never have to deal with male pattern baldness or maybe just late in life, inspite of high dht presence.

Apparently the loss of subcutaneous fat is another factor in male pattern baldness. This important fat store the energy and progenitor cells needed for hair growth. I know that there is a study on this somewhere.

here ya go : http://www.cosmeticsdesign-europe.c...ify-fatty-skin-cells-as-a-reason-for-baldness
 

supermusic

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Why not a third group with dermaroller but without minoxidil apply?
This study only show that the use of dermaroller increase the efficacy of minoxidil, Nothing new IMO. What with the sides??
 

odalbak

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Why not a third group with dermaroller but without minoxidil apply?
This study only show that the use of dermaroller increase the efficacy of minoxidil, Nothing new IMO. What with the sides??

Maybe. But this increase is spectacular if we look at their results.

On the other hand the guy that grew his hair back in 1986 after burning his scalp didn't use minoxidil…
http://www.bmj.com/content/293/6562/1645.2

Anyway, we do need people trying dermarolling alone.
 

hellouser

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Aren't your temples more affected by male pattern baldness than the rest? To me that confirms that the skin thickness in the environment of the follicles is a crucial factor in male pattern baldness. On my scalp and I guess everyone's the baldest zones are the ones with tightest skin (temples and vertex). I'm not referring to the galea as the initial culprit of male pattern baldness but pointing at the idea that hypoxia due to tight skin speeds up the process. With loose skin all over the scalp the male pattern baldness process would be much slower and we may never have to deal with male pattern baldness or maybe just late in life, inspite of high dht presence.

I've made mention of this in my dermaroller thread on BTT, and even pointed out that Spencer mentioned this as well, that in thinning hair, scalp thins as well. There could defnitely be a link between the two. I've suggested applying EMU oil as it thickens up skin.

I really wonder if hair loss requires more than just a single solution to reverse the disease... perhaps inhibition of DHT, induced FGF-9, PGE2, WNT proteins, inhibition of PGD2, increased skin, necessary fat, scalp thickness, proper blood supply, other growth factors etc? We know that block DHT can only halt and reverse the hair loss by a little bit, and with minoxidil it can generate sometimes a significant amount of growth... but never in full. So something is definitely missing. We still dont even fully understand how minoxidil works, but its definitely interesting to see from this study how much better it worked not from absorption but when combined with wounding.

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It needs to be pointed out that the study's mild erythema should not be considered as the same wounding which is what Dr. Cotsarelis' theory is based on. It'd be very presumptuous to say this study's dermarolling 'wounding' is the same as Follica's approach. We don't even know if it requires even more vigorous dermarolling and puncturing of the skin. Let's just go by what the study did, and see the results and THEN experiment.

Unless, if anyone is brave enough to go further than the study and wound once a week but using a 2.00mm or higher dermaroller. The results should be interesting if in fact we are releasing WNT proteins from this method.

I'm still curious as to what this could be like if we go our hands on FGF-9 and injected ourself with it using a diabetic needle AFTER the wounding. Could we really create NEW hair follicles as Cotsarelis suggests in his paper?
 

odalbak

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I'm still curious as to what this could be like if we go our hands on FGF-9 and injected ourself with it using a diabetic needle AFTER the wounding. Could we really create NEW hair follicles as Cotsarelis suggests in his paper?

Isn't wounding alone creating new hair follicles? How do we know it isn't?
 

hellouser

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squeegee

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Isn't wounding alone creating new hair follicles? How do we know it isn't?


It is probably it.. Minoxidil boost ATP which makes you heal faster, so faster results. Derma rolling itself works on your face pretty damn good.

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I've made mention of this in my dermaroller thread on BTT, and even pointed out that Spencer mentioned this as well, that in thinning hair, scalp thins as well. There could defnitely be a link between the two. I've suggested applying EMU oil as it thickens up skin.

I really wonder if hair loss requires more than just a single solution to reverse the disease... perhaps inhibition of DHT, induced FGF-9, PGE2, WNT proteins, inhibition of PGD2, increased skin, necessary fat, scalp thickness, proper blood supply, other growth factors etc? We know that block DHT can only halt and reverse the hair loss by a little bit, and with minoxidil it can generate sometimes a significant amount of growth... but never in full. So something is definitely missing. We still dont even fully understand how minoxidil works, but its definitely interesting to see from this study how much better it worked not from absorption but when combined with wounding.

- - - Updated - - -

It needs to be pointed out that the study's mild erythema should not be considered as the same wounding which is what Dr. Cotsarelis' theory is based on. It'd be very presumptuous to say this study's dermarolling 'wounding' is the same as Follica's approach. We don't even know if it requires even more vigorous dermarolling and puncturing of the skin. Let's just go by what the study did, and see the results and THEN experiment.

Unless, if anyone is brave enough to go further than the study and wound once a week but using a 2.00mm or higher dermaroller. The results should be interesting if in fact we are releasing WNT proteins from this method.

I'm still curious as to what this could be like if we go our hands on FGF-9 and injected ourself with it using a diabetic needle AFTER the wounding. Could we really create NEW hair follicles as Cotsarelis suggests in his paper?

God.. if you apply a good pressure with the 1.5mm and do at least 6 passes on every section of your cranium.. You will bleed like a mofo like me yesterday.. I am curious to try the 3mm one but ****.. that is deep.. 1.5 mm on your temple feels like torture.. I need a numb cream.

Here is 2 mm on face..

[video=youtube;KUZm_eN9LCE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUZm_eN9LCE[/video]
 

Mikazz

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The recovery time of the 1.5mm is about a month, otherwise your skin does not recover completely. I'm wondering if a smaller needle size would do it better. In the publication, they said that they don't know the best needle size: "However, issues regarding Microneedling viz; different sizes of needles of the dermaroller, frequency, duration and end point of the procedure are yet to be answered."

[video=youtube;KHiSwrYRNdQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHiSwrYRNdQ[/video]

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Hey this guy have some results of hair loss restoration using dermaroller without minoxidil (I think)

http://www.whitelotusantiaging.co.uk/dermaroller-before-and-after
 

odalbak

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It is probably it..

I'll defintely dermaroll but I must admit I don't really like the idea of creating brand new cells through inflammatory process… Reminds me of a common kind of pathologies beginning with letter c…

God.. if you apply a good pressure with the 1.5mm and do at least 6 passes on every section of your cranium.. You will bleed like a mofo like me yesterday.

The dermaroller used in the video (Duchess of dermis) is the kind that is advised not to use by these testers (see link below). Look at his grimace after the first few seconds. He's in pain. I wouldn't listen to any advice given by that silliconed witch anyway.
http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/dermaroller-review/
 

squeegee

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I'll defintely dermaroll but I must admit I don't really like the idea of creating brand new cells through inflammatory process… Reminds me of a common kind of pathologies beginning with letter c…



The dermaroller used in the video (Duchess of dermis) is the kind that is advised not to use by these testers (see link below). Look at his grimace after the first few seconds. He's in pain. I wouldn't listen to any advice given by that silliconed witch anyway.
http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/dermaroller-review/

You link is very informative.. thanks man.. LOL.. yeah **** that witch.. I really don't listen to all the youtube bozos.. But I believe bigger the wound better the results. lol and derma rolling is really safe to do so.. I don't see much results coming if you go soft with it and really how much damage can you really do with the derma roller? I go crazy with it and after 2/3 days the skin of my head is back to normal.
 

benjt

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Oh man... generally, I'm quite pain resistant, but that video of the poor guy with the old hag made me freak out. Guess I'll need some alcohol before rolling.
They see me rollin, me bleedin...

By the way, there were already some studies with injection of wound healing-related growth factors into bald scalp, but they showed results comparable "only" to 2% minoxidil. I think the big advantage of dermarolling is its twofold effect:
1) release of growth factors for wound healing
2) destruction of the hard collagen EXACTLY where the needles hit

So first the dermaroller breaks up the hard collagen directly surrounding the follicles, and then the area can regenerate. Regeneration w/o destruction of the collagen beforehand probably doesnt do the job.


I've made mention of this in my dermaroller thread on BTT, and even pointed out that Spencer mentioned this as well, that in thinning hair, scalp thins as well.
Nope, it's exactly the other way around, as shown by a plentitude of papers. Both only empirical papers measuring scalp thickness (turns out the skin is harder in bald areas), and the ones exploring the hair loss process noticing that in balding areas, fibrosis is going on (which leads to accumulation of hard collagen).


@squeegee (and everybody else dermarolling):
Get yourselves some ibuprofen and make some cream out of it. Apply it to the skin where you roll later on. Ibuprofen numbs nerve ends.


Something else just came to my mind regarding the study with dermarolling + minoxidil. Maybe, the dermarolling is just opening a path for minoxidil to get deep into the fibrotic scalp tissue? Remember: In areas where balding is already complete, there is a huge layer of thick, hard collagen that cannot be penetrated that easily. Dermarolling creates a bunch of small tunnels. Not only right after needling, when there are literaly tunnels, but also after wound healing, where the needle struck the collagen will now be soft and thin. Thus, minoxidil can now easily penetrate deep into the scalp tissue.
 

hellouser

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Something else just came to my mind regarding the study with dermarolling + minoxidil. Maybe, the dermarolling is just opening a path for minoxidil to get deep into the fibrotic scalp tissue? Remember: In areas where balding is already complete, there is a huge layer of thick, hard collagen that cannot be penetrated that easily. Dermarolling creates a bunch of small tunnels. Not only right after needling, when there are literaly tunnels, but also after wound healing, where the needle struck the collagen will now be soft and thin. Thus, minoxidil can now easily penetrate deep into the scalp tissue.

Don't forget that minoxidil is only one topical that can benefit from the open pathways. We all saw the ridiculously amazing results people got from BNP-32 and Lubrajel;





Source and study: http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20120238498

Some people have already tried to replicate the study using BNP-32 in the lubrajel vehicle as done in that study, but it has failed to show any results. And its almost guaranteed that its due to its high molecular weight of 3,464 dalton. Skin allows only around 500 dalton to pass through it, but dermarolling is supposed to allow UP TO 10,000 dalton to pass through it. BNP-32 falls significantly lower than that and should easily pass through it.

So we know dermarolling with a 0.5mm like in the past without wounding did SQUAT for basically everyone, but now we have a different approach with healing taken into effect. Let's get creative :)
 

squeegee

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[h=1]A002: Repeated Microneedle Stimulation Induce the Enhanced Expression of Hair-Growth-Related Genes[/h] Copyright and License information ►

Kwanho Jeong[SUP]*[/SUP], Ye Jin Lee, Jung Eun Kim, Young Min Park, Beom Joon Kim[SUP]1[/SUP], Hoon Kang
Department of Dermatology, College of Medicine, The Catholic University of Korea, [SUP]1[/SUP]Chung-Ang University College of Medicine, Seoul, Korea
Skin wound healing is biologically stepwise systemized process which involves cross reactions between different cutaneous cell constituents. Recently, it is known that cutaneous injury with microneedle produces new collagen formation and helps cellular revitalization. We designed experiment to know what will happen after repeated small injury to the hairy skin area. Disk-type microneedle roller was used to evaluate the differences of hair growing effects according to microneedle length and rolling cycles. In addition, the change of hair-growth-related factors was checked. 10 mice (C57BL/6 female; 8 week of age) were divided into 5 groups and each group dorsal skin was depilated. Disk-type roller was applied to each group during 4 weeks (5 times a week) according to microneedle length such as 0.15 mm, 0.25 mm, 0.5 mm, 1.0 mm. After obtained microneedle length for hair growing, most effective rolling cycle determining experiment was carried out such as 3, 6, 10, 13 cycles. Hair growing after microneedle stimulation was evaluated with photograph and handheld digital microscope. To examine hair follicles status and its related growth factors, specimens were obtained by excision biopsy from the dorsal aspect of each mouse. Tissue samples were utilized for the immunohistochemistry and RT-PCR study. 0.5 mm microneedle and 6, 10 rolling cycles showed most valuable hair growing effect. VEGF, β-catenin, Wnt3a, and Wnt10b were strongly stained, increased in the 0.5 mm microneedle and 10 rolling cycle samples and their gene expression was remarkable in the RT-PCR.
This study was supported by a National Research Foundation of Korea grant funded by the Korean government (2011-0008687)
 

benjt

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Unfortunately, that study only measured blood concentrations and apparently didn't use bald mice and/or visual or other comparison (hair count/thickness/weight).

Once again, I did some reading to help our cause. Turns out that follicles are located approx. 1.5 to 2 mm below scalp surface. So if you reliably wanna induce wounds there, you actually would have to get a 1.5mm dermaroller. Anyone brave enough for a 1.5mm one? :D
Admittedly, I'm too much of a pussy for that after seeing that one vid. Just ordered a 0.75 mm one though. I'll commence usage in September (not home till then). So yeah, I'll probably be the first one on these forums to try only dermarolling/microneedling w/o topicals. Let's hope it shows some success. Assome of you know I went off minoxidil due to sides, and the shed is becoming massive now...

Once I recovered from the minoxidil sides (which should be the case in around 4 months now if I recover as fast as others - I hope so!), I'll try combining rolling with very low doses of minoxidil. I do fear though that the systemic absorbtion might be very high.
 
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