I finally realized why Dutasteride doesn't work for me and maybe for others

[mk2013]

I have been wracking my brain for so long to figure out why I lost so much ground since starting Dutasteride and it finally hit me. TESTOSTERONE increase. I have high test to begin with. Getting on Dutasteride totally ruined my hair because of this. It raises scalp test over 100%. It sucks because it is such a good dht blocker

 

[GoldenMane]

Testosterone doesn't cause hair loss.

 

[mk2013]

Massive shed in month 3 and never recovered after as year

 

[Ventures]

Testosterone doesn't cause hair loss.

I believe Bryan mentioned once all androgens cause follicular miniaturisation. Only difference is DHT is the most potent one and has the greatest affinity to AR in prostate tissue and follicular cells. In majority of people you have to suppress only DHT to certain level. The reason to support that is that castration reduce DHT level by 80 - 90 % which is quite similar what you get using large doses of finasteride or dutasteride. And as you know castration stops / halts male pattern baldness far more efficiently then finasteride or dutasteride. Obviously that's probably due to a more complete suppression of androgens than just what you get with finasteride. Castration causes about the same DHT suppression as finasteride, but causes a very striking reduction of testosterone, compared to what you get with finasteride (which actually tends to go UP a little). This proves that T and other androgen hormones play huge role in Male patern baldnes regarding their infuence in auto-immune-response, fibrosis etc.


http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interac...-sensitivity?p=1143360&viewfull=1#post1143360

And DHT is not much different compared to origin hormone T, except DHT contains two hydrogens atoms more which makes its chemical signature more attractive to AR.

In my opinion it makes sense what @mk2013 and other members occasionally report; some of them maybe have very sensitive hair and even using Avodart isn't enough to stop their hair loss, because if you have very sensitive hair follicles( great number of AR) then there is increased chance T alone can bind to AR and activate genes essential for downstream effects similar when DHT binds.

@mk2013 Are you sure you are not in some kind of prolonged shedding phase ? I heard dozens of reports Avodart eats hairline - but eventually it turned out those who continued to use it after a year or more, their ground returned thicker. So, It's important to continue to use dutasteride, and I am afraid if you stop, there is possibility you will lost your ground forever.

 

[Valiant]

OP, you state that Avodart raises scalp testosterone by 100%. Where did you get that information? We would appreciate a link. You said you had high testosterone to begin with. Did you get bloodwork?

- - - Updated - - -

This proves that T and other androgen hormones play huge role in Male patern baldnes regarding their infuence in auto-immune-response, fibrosis etc.

This doesn't make sense. Auto-immune response and fibrosis? The study Bryan summarized doesn't have anything to do with male pattern baldness.

You are spreading bad information.

Don't lower your Testosterone. That is not a good idea.

 

[Ventures]

My point is all androgen hormones can bind to AR and activate certain male pattern baldness genes. The only difference is how effective they bind, so affinity of binding is significant reason why some androgens are potent and some less. Explain why castration is so effective if it reduces DHT level by 80 - 90 % which is quite similar level of suppression obtained by finasteride or dutasteride ?

Regarding influence of T and other androgens in fibrosis, well a lot of things on tissue level is not folly understood, and I agree T does not directly cause some effects and induce certain mechanisms. But we all know auto immune response is downstream effect of miniaturisation.

 

[Valiant]

My point is all androgen hormones can bind to AR and activate certain male pattern baldness genes. The only difference is how effective they bind, so affinity of binding is significant reason why some androgens are potent and some less. Explain why castration is so effective if it reduces DHT level by 80 - 90 % which is quite similar level of suppression obtained by finasteride or dutasteride ?

Regarding influence of T and other androgens in fibrosis, well a lot of things on tissue level is not folly understood, and I agree T does not directly cause some effects and induce certain mechanisms. But we all know auto immune response is downstream effect of miniaturisation.

Who has been castrated to treat male pattern baldness? Are these anecdotal reports or are they scientific studies? Or is is just "bro science" on the Internet? Are there any anecdotal reports or scientific studies on men who lower T to treat male pattern baldness? I am not trying to be difficult, but you have stated that testosterone (not DHT) causes male pattern baldness. I just need you to point to some source. Castrated men don't have much T. Therefore, they have low DHT. I suspect that some men who are castrated lose their hair.

We all don't know auto-immune response is a downstream effect of minaturasation. How is that caused by T?

 

[Ventures]

Who has been castrated to treat male pattern baldness? Are these anecdotal reports or are they scientific studies? Or is is just "bro science" on the Internet? Are there any anecdotal reports or scientific studies on men who lower T to treat male pattern baldness?

Well, for thousands of years, since the time of Hippocrates, it has been noticed that castrated people(eunuchs), don't loose their hair, or to be more precise they don't develop Androgenic Alopecia- AA no matterwhat their family history was. Of course, as females or prepubescent childes they may get Telogen effluvium but they can not develop horse shoe pattern or significant receded hairline. Mature hairline and some degree of frontal hair loss is not excluded in castrates. But I haven't yet seen picture of castrated male with horse shoe.

Castrated men don't have much T. Therefore, they have low DHT. I suspect that some men who are castrated lose their hair.

Castrated men have low T, but their DHT is reduced by 70-90 % compared to baseline. After all, if you understand basics of endocrinology, then you probably know that very little free T is required to form normal amount of DHT. So even both of testicles have been removed, body can produced those levels of DHT. Furthermore adrenal gland also produces T both in males and females.

I am not trying to be difficult, but you have stated that testosterone (not DHT) causes male pattern baldness. I just need you to point to some source.

I never stated T only causes hair loss, I clearly mentioned all androgens have ability to suppress scalp hair. DHT is the most potent one, so it should be the main culprit, and finasteride and dutasteride showed that in majority of population it is sufficient to suppress only DHT to stop male pattern baldness or even reverse it.

 

[psyhotria]

Yes it's true, T, like DHT, is bad for hair; high T concentrations killing even non-balding DPC (driving apoptosis) by increasing bax/bcl-2 ratio. Interestingly, minoxidil decreases bax/bcl-2 ratio, preventing apoptosis of DPC. Thus, very likely T will do havoc on balding DPC at much lower concentrations. It is the DPC that is target of androgen action. Less DPC meaning weaker and less hair. A possible solution to this dilemma could be the use of an (topical) antiandrogen (i.e. RU), and topical keto lotion, and also taking dutasteride less frequently (i.e. 1-2x/w).

 

[Ventures]

Yes it's true, T, like DHT, is bad for hair; high T concentrations killing even non-balding DPC (driving apoptosis) by increasing bax/bcl-2 ratio. Interestingly, minoxidil decreases bax/bcl-2 ratio, preventing apoptosis of DPC. Thus, very likely T will do havoc on balding DPC .....

Is it correct to say that every dermal papilla cell is a balding one? By this said I mean only difference is how sensitive DPC is, so in theory if you expose DPC from donor region to high concentrations of T and DHT, eventually it will die.

 

[Valiant]

My apologies to Ventures. I misquoted what he said. He did not say T causes male pattern baldness, but that all androgens do. I have never seen any evidence from a study or from anecdotal reports that T (not DHT) or other androgens cause male pattern baldness. Bodybuilders have hair. And they have androgens, sometimes in dangerously high amounts.

Following the logic of this post, though, I don't understand why Avodart and finasteride, which reduce DHT, but increase T, reverse or halt male pattern baldness while at the same time increasing T which according to these posts, causes male pattern baldness. If T caused male pattern baldness, wouldn't the action of Avodart and finasteride get negated by the rise in T? Sounds like a circle.

Please post some studies or some anecdotal reports of men who have high T (and low DHT) and the T then causes male pattern baldness.

I will leave you to that and let you have the last word. But, I would not recommend trying to lower your T to save your hair. Really bad things happen when you have low testosterone.

 

[psyhotria]

Sorry, meant to write DPC from (non-)balding skin, and not (non-)balding DPC lol.

 

[Ventures]

Following the logic of this post, though, I don't understand why Avodart and finasteride, which reduce DHT, but increase T, reverse or halt male pattern baldness while at the same time increasing T which according to these posts, causes male pattern baldness. If T caused male pattern baldness, wouldn't the action of Avodart and finasteride get negated by the rise in T? Sounds like a circle.

First of all, I don't have studies or scientific researches to support fact that all androgens cause male pattern baldness, some androgens are weak and in low doses in serum and salivary, so their influence can be considered negligible.

T and DHT have almost the same chemical structure, except DHT (di-hydro-testosterone) has two H atoms more which provides its ability to bind more effectively to AR and passes genetical instructions to nucleus of the cell. Regarding that only difference between T and DHT is their affinity to AR (how successfully they bind) but not instructions they transmit. Therefore if DHT causes male pattern baldness then there is no reason to suspect T does not.

To answer your second question, if T contributes to hair loss, how come finasteride and dutasteride works in majority of people if they rise T by obstruction of conversion of free T to DHT. Well, I think your logic is wrong here. It's about equilibrium state. Propecia reduces DHT which is a hormone( I call it super T) that binds to AR for instance 20x times more faster and efficient then normal T. In respect, simple math gives us there is surplus in T because less T has been converted to DHT by 5ard.

- Let's say we have 1000 units of free T, and 100 units of 5-alpha-reductase (5ard) in serum. Initital state: 1000 T, 100 5ard.
Naturally if you not use finasteride: 5ard converts T to DHT, so as result we have: 900 T and 100 DHT units.

- If you use finasteride. finasteride have significantly reduced DHT by inhibition of 5ard by 70% Altered state: 1000 T, 30 5ard.
so as result we have: 970 T and only 30 DHT units. So at this point , you see the difference. In first case you have 900 T, and 100 DHT, and in other 970 T, and only 30 DHT units. (900 T, 100 DHT) vs. (970 T, 30 DHT) Let's calculate affinity rate of T and DHT in total. We assume that probability rate for T to bind to AR equals to 1, and DHT has 20 grater affinity (these are not correct values, but only roughly scales).

So, affinity rate of (900 T, 100 DHT) is 900 + 100x20 = 2900 [measured in whatever] , and in the same way affinity rate of (970 T, 30 DHT) is 970 + 30x20 = 1570.

As you might guess, second case is less dangerous to follicles because you reduced super T = DHT, and even in turn you have rise in T, it doesn't matter cause DHT has higher affinity. 2900 vs 1570

I will leave you to that and let you have the last word. But, I would not recommend trying to lower your T to save your hair. Really bad things happen when you have low testosterone.

I completely agree with that said, normal T levels (both bioavailable, and free T)are required for proper functionality of male organism. Furthermore, I think low T can cause body to produce more DHT. Body synthesizes more 5ard enzyme to convert T to DHT. DHT is much more potent hormone, so in that way I think body try to compensate low T. There is another topic about that, and I recommend to read it: http://www.*********talk.com/showthread.php?t=11340 ; http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interac...5-Can-Low-Testosterone-Levels-Cause-Hair-Loss

That is why DHT levels (and hair loss in individuals susceptible to balding) are elevated by ageing - older people have lower T, so body seeks way to cover those loses by increasing DHT.

 

[Valiant]

Regarding that only difference between T and DHT is their affinity to AR (how successfully they bind) but not instructions they transmit.

I am sorry, but your last word is spreading wrong information. It is very wrong. There is a big difference between the function of T and DHT. Ask any bodybuilder. You don't see those guys injecting DHT. If it had the same instructions as T and higher affinity to the AR, it would be a bb's dream.

 

[Ventures]

Wikipedia Article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testosterone

"....The effects of testosterone in humans and other vertebrates occur by way of two main mechanisms: by activation of the androgen receptor (directly or as DHT). Free testosterone (T) is transported into the cytoplasm of target tissue cells, where it can bind to the androgen receptor, or can be reduced to 5α-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) by the cytoplasmic enzyme 5-alpha reductase. DHT binds to the same androgen receptor even more strongly than testosterone, so that its androgenic potency is about 5 times that of T.[SUP][131][/SUP] The T-receptor or DHT-receptor complex undergoes a structural change that allows it to move into the cell nucleus and bind directly to specific nucleotide sequences of the chromosomal DNA.... "

Cited paragraph suggests there is no difference between stimulation of AR by T or DHT, Read one more time this sentence : The effects of T in humans occur by way of two main mechanisms: by activation of the androgen receptor (directly or as DHT). I didn't learn English in my elementary or high school but I do understand semantics. This sentence says: Effects of origin steroid hormone Testosterone can be occurred by T itself or by its more potent derivative DHT.

Your question, why body-builders and older people who are attending hormone replacement therapy- HRT don't use DHT, but T, even first hormone has much more androgenic potency. Well, I am not endocrinology expert but I believe it has to do with dissociation rate and pharmacokinetics of each. (....DHT has two to three times greater androgen receptor affinity than testosterone and has 15-30 times greater affinity than adrenal androgens.[SUP][1][/SUP] The dissociation rate of testosterone from the receptor is five-fold faster than DHT.. Source: Wikipedia)

And even DHT has great affinity, I found out it has low half-life time, some even say DHT has effects only in tissues where it is produced (synthesized). In humans 5ard synthesizes DHT in the prostate, testis, hair follicles, and adrenal glands. As you know, finasteride and dutasteride are originally invented to help with benign prostate hyperplasia because DHT has strong influence in those cells as well. Some even say if we remove all DHT from salivary (etc. scalp ) then we can enjoy having normal serum levels of same hormone. In other words, serum DHT is not threat to scalp hair follicles, it is salivary or scalp DHT which "eats" dermal papilla - but this is off topic.

 

[Valiant]

The OP said that Avodart did not work for him because it raised his testosterone, which,according to him, was already high to begin with. He said Avodart raises testosterone by 100%. Assuming that he had really high testosterone to begin with, he would have high DHT before taking Avodart and then perhaps lowering DHT with Avodart would not lower it enough to reverse ors top male pattern baldness. But, we don’t have a post from him with blood tests to show before/after.

I have never seen any medical evidence that shows that Avodart doubles your testosterone. For that matter, I have never seen evidence showing that testosterone (T as opposed to DHT) causes male pattern baldness. Any proof in either scientific studies or anecdotal reports would be helpful to support these points.

Testosterone and DHT do not have identical messages to androgen receptors. A big difference, but not the only one, is that testosterone is anabolic and expressed in skeletal muscle among other tissues. DHT is not expressed in any significant way in skeletal muscle and it is not very anabolic. What this means is that DHT does not contribute to muscle growth. Testosterone does. Look up any basic information on bodybuilding and you will understand it.

I posted in this thread because LOWERING TESTOSTERONE to stop male pattern baldness is a really bad idea. Please don’t consider it to be a solution regardless of how much you want to stop hairloss.

 

[abcdefg]

I think we have to keep in mind that male pattern baldness is not completely figured out so its hard to say for certain male pattern baldness is solely lowering DHT. I think some studies do exist that show testosterone does damage hair on its own its also an androgen exactly like DHT except much weaker. We also have poor understanding of how different androgens affect different parts of the scalp. Does DHT affect the front/temples the same as it does the crown or is T more important in the front? They are largely unanswered questions so its possible dutasteride could damage hair in some people. Also sensitivity to androgens is another unknown does that change after lowering DHT and raising T?

 

[Ventures]

From my point of view, there is no much difference in chemical structure of T and DHT except two hydrogen atoms added to DHT formation. Pure logic says in that case chemical instructions transmitted by T and DHT should be the same. Only reason why DHT is much more dangerous for scalp hair lies in fact it has grater affinity to AR, obviously because of changed properties of molecular binding.

I don't have studies which show devastating effects of T to dermal papila cells in vitro. But I believe they exist on web.

We also have poor understanding of how different androgens affect different parts of the scalp. Does DHT affect the front/temples the same as it does the crown or is T more important in the front? They are largely unanswered questions so its possible dutasteride could damage hair in some people. Also sensitivity to androgens is another unknown does that change after lowering DHT and raising T?

In my theory it all depends how sensitive your follicles are; the number of AR they contain, and/or how sensitive is each of those ARs. If there is great number of AR in DP then there is high probability DHT or other androgens will attach to it and transmit programed instructions. There is just one type of AR in all cells, there is no T receptor or DHT receptor. Risk of loosing hair in front is higher because of increased numbers of AR in those areas or other factors including less blood supply, aromatic/5ard concentrations ratio. Remember even some females can develop mature hairline.

 

[Valiant]

From my point of view, there is no much difference in chemical structure of T and DHT except two hydrogen atoms added to DHT formation. Pure logic says in that case chemical instructions transmitted by T and DHT should be the same.


Incorrect. Please do some research on this.

 

[RoyD]

So what's the bottom line in this? I really want to know because I for one am losing hair even on Dutasteride 0.5 mg daily.