For those concerned about muscularity and finasteride

drinkrum

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I fished out this article for you -- it's brilliant: http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/rapidp ... 1933v1.pdf

Granted, the study is done on old geezers, but the points are nevertheless relevant.

The abstract is:

Testosterone (T) therapy in older men with low serum testosterone (T)levels increases lean body mass (LBM) and decreases fat mass (FM). These changes might improve physical performance and strength; however, it has not been established whether T therapy improves functional outcome in older men. Moreover, concerns exist about the impact of T therapy on the prostate in older men. The administration of finasteride, which partially blocks the conversion of T to the more potent androgen, dihydrotestosterone (DHT), attenuates the impact of T replacement on prostate size and PSA. We hypothesized that T replacement in older hypogonadal men would improve physical function and that the addition of finasteride to this regimen would continue to provide the T-induced improvements in physical performance, strength, and body composition.

Seventy men with low serum T (<350ng/dl), age 65 and older, were randomly assigned to receive one of three regimens for 36 months: T enanthate 200 mg intramuscularly every two weeks with placebo pills daily (T-only), T enanthate 200 mg every two weeks with 5 mg finasteride daily (T+F), or placebo injections and pills (placebo). We obtained serial measurements of timed physical performance, grip strength, lower extremity strength, body composition (by DEXA), fasting cholesterol profiles and hormones. Fifty men completed the 36-month protocol. After 36 months, T therapy significantly improved performance in a timed functional test when compared to baseline and placebo (4.3±1.6% [mean ± SEM, T-only] and 3.8±1.0% [T+F] vs. -5.6±1.9% for placebo, [P<0.002 for both T and T+F versus placebo]), and increased handgrip strength compared to baseline and placebo [P<0.05]. T therapy increased LBM (3.77±0.55 kg [T-only] and 3.64±0.56 kg [T+F] vs. -0.21±0.55 kg for placebo, [P<0.0001]), decreased FM, and significantly decreased total cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein (LDL-C), and leptin, without affecting high-density lipoprotein (HDL), adiponectin or fasting insulin levels.

These results demonstrate that T therapy in older men with low serum T improves physical performance and strength over 36 months both when administered alone or when combined with finasteride and suggest that high serum levels of DHT are not essential for these beneficial effect of T in men.

D.
 

drinkrum

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Also, check out:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/conten ... 83/10/3445

The relevant portions, of which, are:

We do not know if the anabolic effects of testosterone require its conversion to dihydrotestosterone by 5-alpha-reductase. Although there is a small amount of 5-alpha-reducatase activity within the muscle, 5-alpha reduction does not appear to be obligatory for mediating androgen effects on the muscle. For instance, patients with benign prostatic hypertrophy who have been treated with the 5- alpha-reductase inhibitor finasteride do not experience muscle wasting. Similarly, patients with congenital deficiency of 5-alpha reductase enzyme have normal muscle mass. There has been some recent interest in exploring the anabolic effects of dihydrotestosterone in older men. Because this androgen cannot be aromatized, there is concern that administration of exogenous dihydrotestosterone may produce osteopenia because of suppression of endogenous testosterone, the precursor for estrogen in men.

D.
 

drinkrum

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Last one, I promise. Short article about Propecia and athletic performance -- you all that are concerned should read it in its entirety. The URL is:

http://www.americanrunning.org/displayi ... startrec=1

The mechanism of action of finasteride is to inhibit the steroid 5-alpha reductase, which is an intracellular enzyme that converts testosterone into the potent androgen 5-alpha dihydrotestosterone (DHT). This enzyme is a Type II isoenzyme and is found primarily in the prostate, seminal vesicles, epididymides and hair follicles as well as the liver, but not the muscle. What this means is that the activity of the finasteride is confined almost exclusively to the target organs and should not affect muscle mass or athletic performance. The anti-androgen action of this medication is confined almost entirely to the scalp and prostate.

Finasteride is generally well tolerated. Adverse reactions usually have been mild and transient. The two most common side effects at the higher dose of five milligrams daily are impotence (3.7%) and decreased libido (3.3%). These side effects have not been reported at the dose used for male pattern balding.

Finasteride will not help you run faster or promote muscle mass, but it also won't inhibit your progress in your training regimen.

D.
 
G

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drinkrum said:
......Granted, the study is done on old geezers, but the points are nevertheless relevant......


LOL! "geezers"

sh*t D! you been in London too long :)
 

Lojak

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Muscle mass and Finasteride

DrinkRum you seem to have a solid grasp on some of the chemistry involved here so I'm hoping you ( or anyone willing ) might be able to help me. I have many questions left unanswered. My hairline is receding and it seems, from the little homework I've done, the Finasteride - Minoxidil combination is the most effective to combat this thinning/receding. I'm not really concerned about the Minoxidil since it's easy to get and use and the side effects are minimal if not non-existent. My concern centers on the use of Finasteride and it's side effects. I weight train and do cardio consistently and have for many years. My goal is the usual lean, muscular look. I don't really care about having a reduced libido ( might even welcome it ) but I do care about lost muscle mass and gyno. So I guess what I'm asking for are some straight forward answers. As I understand it, if I were to begin taking Finasteride my DHT levels would drop considerably, effectively allowing my hair to re-grow ( amongst other things ).... correct? This decrease in DHT somehow increases Estrogen production and could possibly result in gyno. Is this because more Testosterone is left in the body since the Finasteride is preventing it from being converted to DHT? If this is the case could an Anti-Estrogen (e.g. Nolvadex ) be used in concert with finasteride to counteract this Estrogen increase? Wouldn’t the increase in T levels in the body actually increase lean muscle mass? The Americanrunning.org article you cited mentioned that the steroid 5-alpha reductase “is found primarily in the prostate, seminal vesicles, epididymides and hair follicles as well as the liver, but not the muscle. What this means is that the activity of the finasteride is confined almost exclusively to the target organs and should not affect muscle mass or athletic performance. The anti-androgen action of this medication is confined almost entirely to the scalp and prostate.â€￾ Do you know of any clinical studies that have shown this? So basically I’m asking if finasteride is going make me get fat and grow breasts?

I found this article interesting.
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/content/page-289.html

Any insight you might be able to provide would be very much appreciated.

Thank you.
 

juststarting

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Re: Muscle mass and Finasteride

Yes, finasteride will cause you to grow breasts, gain weight, and lose all your muscle :) Just kidding!

Seriously, if the vast majority of users don't have any of these problems, chances are you won't either. No one knows what a drug will do in YOUR body as compared to someone else's body. Just try the darn drug, see if it has any negative effects and go from there. You can ALWAYS quit the drug and all will be back as before in 1-2 weeks.

Lojak said:
DrinkRum you seem to have a solid grasp on some of the chemistry involved here so I'm hoping you ( or anyone willing ) might be able to help me. I have many questions left unanswered. My hairline is receding and it seems, from the little homework I've done, the Finasteride - Minoxidil combination is the most effective to combat this thinning/receding. I'm not really concerned about the Minoxidil since it's easy to get and use and the side effects are minimal if not non-existent. My concern centers on the use of Finasteride and it's side effects. I weight train and do cardio consistently and have for many years. My goal is the usual lean, muscular look. I don't really care about having a reduced libido ( might even welcome it ) but I do care about lost muscle mass and gyno. So I guess what I'm asking for are some straight forward answers. As I understand it, if I were to begin taking Finasteride my DHT levels would drop considerably, effectively allowing my hair to re-grow ( amongst other things ).... correct? This decrease in DHT somehow increases Estrogen production and could possibly result in gyno. Is this because more Testosterone is left in the body since the Finasteride is preventing it from being converted to DHT? If this is the case could an Anti-Estrogen (e.g. Nolvadex ) be used in concert with finasteride to counteract this Estrogen increase? Wouldn’t the increase in T levels in the body actually increase lean muscle mass? The Americanrunning.org article you cited mentioned that the steroid 5-alpha reductase “is found primarily in the prostate, seminal vesicles, epididymides and hair follicles as well as the liver, but not the muscle. What this means is that the activity of the finasteride is confined almost exclusively to the target organs and should not affect muscle mass or athletic performance. The anti-androgen action of this medication is confined almost entirely to the scalp and prostate.â€￾ Do you know of any clinical studies that have shown this? So basically I’m asking if finasteride is going make me get fat and grow breasts?

I found this article interesting.
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/content/page-289.html

Any insight you might be able to provide would be very much appreciated.

Thank you.
 

drinkrum

Senior Member
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Re: Muscle mass and Finasteride

Lojak said:
DrinkRum you seem to have a solid grasp on some of the chemistry involved here so I'm hoping you ( or anyone willing ) might be able to help me. I have many questions left unanswered.

Lojak,

The articles I have provided should have answered your questions, no? The anti-androgenic properties of finasteride are not 100% confined to the target organs. Finasteride reduces serum 5-AR II in the whole of the body and it can cross the blood-brain barrier. That said, finasteride _should not_ affect athletic performance in terms of muscle building. Beyond that, I don't know if any research exist comparing, say, 100-meter dash times on and off finasteride. It would be an interesting study, indeed. I have talked to a couple of the top researchers in this field, and they mention that they've not seen any effects on muscularity or on the central nervous system (CNS) with finasteride at the 1 mg/day dose.

Finasteride is known to increase T (testosterone) and E2 (estradiol). However, this increase tends to fade away after about 2 weeks and T and E2 are said to normalize in young men taking finasteride. I have posted studies on this here: http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions ... 3&start=30

In that same thread, Bismarck and I embark on an interesting conversation about possible CNS effects of finasteride.

D.
 

drinkrum

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And by the way, I have read that article by Patrick Arnold many times. He does make a few relevant points, but, as he even states, testosterone is the main androgen for muscle growth.

Last, I would not recommend taking tamoxifen or anything stronger (e.g. anastrazole or letrozole) at this point. The chances that you will incur gyno are slim-to-none.

D.
 

chewbacca

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i've been taking finasteride since november and i'm beginning to grow a vagina on my leg. is this normal?
 

drinkrum

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chewbacca said:
i've been taking finasteride since november and i'm beginning to grow a vagina on my leg. is this normal?

Yes. I guess that makes two for you now, eh chewbacca? :D

D.
 

chewbacca

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ok i admit, it's not my head i really want to grow hair on...
 

hairschmair

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This is worrying.

From what I understand vaginas should be growing above the legs (see where the two legs join) not ON your leg.

I would see a doctor if I were you.

Jay
 

Lojak

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Thanks for the insight DrinkRum. I did read the articles you posted but it's slow, tedious reading for me and I don't know that I understand all that I'm reading. I appreciate your help none the less. The vagina comments were also extremely insightful as well as highly relevant.
 

drinkrum

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Lojak said:
Thanks for the insight DrinkRum. I did read the articles you posted but it's slow, tedious reading for me and I don't know that I understand all that I'm reading. I appreciate your help none the less. The vagina comments were also extremely insightful as well as highly relevant.

No problem, Lojak. I'm here to help -- it's my duty. 8)

D.
 
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