Folica Microneedling Process - Replicating With Derma Pen

Noah

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Post from Poster Nosfer2176, currently unable to join the forum because of a technical glitch

I just got a Dr. Pen for microneedling - I saw that there was a 40+ page thread about the Folica microneedling process and wanted to ask if anyone would be kind enough to post a brief summary of the conclusions re: how I can best replicate the Folica protocol with my derma pen.
 

Derelict

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I think it is 12 pin, 0.75mm every two weeks or something, maybe a more informed member can comment, im still not very trusting of the follica protocol though, i think daily light needling leads to better results from what i have seen tbh.
 

pegasus2

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1200-1600 needle strikes per cm². .75-1mm depth, every two weeks. However, I'm of the opinion that efficacy can be improved by going deeper, and that Follica is limiting it to .8mm due to other concerns.
 

coolio

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Look at this SAT meme. This is what a square looks like with just under 1500 dots in it:

perfect-SAT1.png


It's a colossal amount. Imagine trying to cram all those hits into a single cm2 on your scalp. Got that idea?

But wait, it gets harder. You have to use a needle that is big enough poke 1mm down. The holes would have to be bigger than these dots are in the above image.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

Think about what that above image would look like if all the black dots were much larger diameter - It would look like a solid black square, or something pretty close to that.

I suspect that Follica didn't really find a specific number of holes that was "too many" (were the efficacy began t drop off). They probably got the best results from an uninterrupted scorched-earth approach. The 1600 figure probably exists because they had to pick a stopping point and that was high enough to run out of bare skin to hit. You can keep poking the same area indefinitely but sooner or later it will stop making additional holes. The needle will just be landing into a previous hole every single time.

Bottom line - if you're trying to replicate the Follica wound, just go to town on it. Don't worry about making too many holes. Only worry about making too few.
 
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Throwaway94

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Look at this SAT meme. This is what a square looks like with just under 1500 dots in it:

View attachment 145036

It's a colossal amount. Imagine trying to cram all those hits into a single cm2 on your scalp. Got that idea?

But wait, it gets harder. You have to use a needle that is big enough poke 1mm down. The holes would have to be bigger than these dots are in the above image.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

Think about what that above image would look like if all the black dots were much larger diameter - It would look like a solid black square, or something pretty close to that.

I suspect that Follica didn't really find a specific number of holes that was "too many" (were the efficacy began t drop off). They probably got the best results from an uninterrupted scorched-earth approach. The 1600 figure probably exists because they had to pick a stopping point and that was high enough to run out of bare skin to hit. You can keep poking the same area indefinitely but sooner or later it will stop making additional holes. The needle will just be landing into a previous hole every single time.

Bottom line - if you're trying to replicate the Follica wound, just go to town on it. Don't worry about making too many holes. Only worry about making too few.

Just wanna add though, the patent didn't specifically describe 1600 independent wounds, just up to 1600 needle strikes. I imagine there'd be a fair bit of overlap regardless of the device. And yeah I believe they hit diminishing returns after 1600 so for the sake of clinical treatment efficiency that's where they capped it.

Also, your point about the needle width - the needles are 0.18mm in diameter for a standard Dr. Pen which means that in a perfect array of 1600 wounds per square cm, the edge of each wound would be approx 0.13mm away from the edge of the next wound. If my quick maf isn't garbage. So yes just confirming that the area would in that instance be comprised mostly of.... wound. Lol. But that doesn't account for the basically instant closing of the wound after it's made.
 

RB1

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I'm in the exact boat as Noah. My main q at this stage (after 3 sessions) is how many 'paths' i should make over the head. Ive seen 2 x vertical, horizontal AND diagonal, I've seen only one path in total, etc. No need to over wound if unnecessary, but also under wounding would be not optimal...
 

coolio

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There's a reason they got better results from needling than from dermabrasion which obliterates the entire scalp. Read the quorum sensing study where when they plucked all the follicles nothing grew back. They only got regrowth when the damage density was just right.

True. Poking holes will never produce quite the same wound as dermabrasion because it doesn't remove tissue. It just shoves it around.

My basic point is that for our practical purposes, it's probably safe to err on the side of overkill. You're probably better off poking 2000 per cm2 than only doing 800.

This is in contrast to my attitude about the wounding frequency. I wouldn't advocate going way past Follica's findings on that. Without adequate recovery time you are just hurting yourself for nothing. Poking holes doesn't produce hair, the hair is produced when your body heals up the damage.
 

ajax

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True. Poking holes will never produce quite the same wound as dermabrasion because it doesn't remove tissue. It just shoves it around.

My basic point is that for our practical purposes, it's probably safe to err on the side of overkill. You're probably better off poking 2000 per cm2 than only doing 800.

This is in contrast to my attitude about the wounding frequency. I wouldn't advocate going way past Follica's findings on that. Without adequate recovery time you are just hurting yourself for nothing. Poking holes doesn't produce hair, the hair is produced when your body heals up the damage.

I'm waiting two weeks between derma needling but on that second week I've started derma rolling 3 times (mon - weds - fri).

Idea being that my hair always immediately looks healthier and more 'alive' after rolling, which I'm guessing is due to increased blood flow.

I'm not convinced we can fully replicate Folica using home devices so I'm attacking it from a slightly different angle in the hope that increased blood flow speeds up or helps the healing process.

Only did this for first time last week though so have no idea if it actually works. Thought it was worth a try though.
 

Throwaway94

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I'm waiting two weeks between derma needling but on that second week I've started derma rolling 3 times (mon - weds - fri).

Idea being that my hair always immediately looks healthier and more 'alive' after rolling, which I'm guessing is due to increased blood flow.

I'm not convinced we can fully replicate Folica using home devices so I'm attacking it from a slightly different angle in the hope that increased blood flow speeds up or helps the healing process.

Only did this for first time last week though so have no idea if it actually works. Thought it was worth a try though.

Ffs your hair doesn't receive blood it's a protein stick. Whatever instantaneous effects you see are 100% in your head.

Do your fingernails feel more alive when you injure your fingers too?
 

ajax

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Ffs your hair doesn't receive blood it's a protein stick. Whatever instantaneous effects you see are 100% in your head.

Do your fingernails feel more alive when you injure your fingers too?

I'm on about my scalp receiving improved blood flow, not the actual hairs haha!

Rolling makes my scalp hot just like a sports massage makes my muscles hot due to the blood flowing to that area to help repair it.
 

Throwaway94

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I'm on about my scalp receiving improved blood flow, not the actual hairs haha!

Rolling makes my scalp hot just like a sports massage makes my muscles hot due to the blood flowing to that area to help repair it.
Cool but you keep talking about your hair quality after needling, not your scalp feeling warm
 

ajax

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Cool but you keep talking about your hair quality after needling, not your scalp feeling warm

Yeah my hair looks more healthy immediately post rolling, which it doesn't immediately post needling... I'm guessing to do with increased blood flow to the scalp and the area surrounding the follicles, not that blood flows to or through the actual hair itself.
 

ajax

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Still makes no sense mate

A few people have all mentioned the same thing in the multiple derma rolling / needling threads, so whatever the mechanism there's something going on with increased blood flow and hair looking and feeling immediately better post rolling.
 

Derelict

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Lol there are so many idiots here. I've lost count of the number of times I've read comments like "I used something once and my shedding decreased to only a few hairs the next day" It doesn't work that way.

Any immediate improvement you've noticed after a treatment is purely psychological, the fact that you're doing something makes you feel like the treatment is working. This is especially true of needling where the entire scalp is red and sore, and that in turn convinces you that your follicles are repairing themselves immediately and your hair looks better.

You can give your opinion about what he said without calling him an idiot. I agree with you though, i don't see how needling can make your hair look or feel different. I gave it up, but might start again, probably wouldn't follow the follica protocol even though i know they have invested a lot of time and money in it.
 

ajax

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Lol there are so many idiots here. I've lost count of the number of times I've read comments like "I used something once and my shedding decreased to only a few hairs the next day" It doesn't work that way.

Any immediate improvement you've noticed after a treatment is purely psychological, the fact that you're doing something makes you feel like the treatment is working. This is especially true of needling where the entire scalp is red and sore, and that in turn convinces you that your follicles are repairing themselves immediately and your hair looks better.

No, I've been using hairloss products successfully for 15 years, I'm not new to this or suffering from some sort of placebo effect.

I'm not talking about hair being thicker or suddenly sprouting all over... I'm talking about a temporary effect where my hair looks healthier immediately post rolling that I don't experience post needling.

Sadly this forum doesn't allow for anyone to state something that they've found if it doesn't fit someone else's thinking... It's why most people who have success bugger off as soon as they're doing well, it's a negative and toxic place most of the time.

It's also great for information if you are first starting out, but people don't stick around and share their success for a good reason sadly.

Of course multiple people stating an initial healthier look to their hair post rolling is just retards whose minds are playing tricks on them, even if they're experienced posters and able to compare to other treatments including needling, can't be any other reason than just being idiots right?
 

Throwaway94

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No, I've been using hairloss products successfully for 15 years, I'm not new to this or suffering from some sort of placebo effect.

I'm not talking about hair being thicker or suddenly sprouting all over... I'm talking about a temporary effect where my hair looks healthier immediately post rolling that I don't experience post needling.

Sadly this forum doesn't allow for anyone to state something that they've found if it doesn't fit someone else's thinking... It's why most people who have success bugger off as soon as they're doing well, it's a negative and toxic place most of the time.

It's also great for information if you are first starting out, but people don't stick around and share their success for a good reason sadly.

Of course multiple people stating an initial healthier look to their hair post rolling is just retards whose minds are playing tricks on them, even if they're experienced posters and able to compare to other treatments including needling, can't be any other reason than just being idiots right?
Yeah pretty much, glad you understand.
 

sonictemples

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Post from Poster Nosfer2176, currently unable to join the forum because of a technical glitch

I just got a Dr. Pen for microneedling - I saw that there was a 40+ page thread about the Folica microneedling process and wanted to ask if anyone would be kind enough to post a brief summary of the conclusions re: how I can best replicate the Folica protocol with my derma pen.
Doing god's work for being the voice of so many people who can't sign up. Thank you :D
 

coolio

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Are you people really spatting over this? FFS.

Maybe the follicles are standing up a little straighter or more uniformly after a needling session. That would be a skin effect, not an effect on the hair shaft itself. But it could give the impression of healthier hair. This would explain it just fine.

The scalp skin would be reddened after a needling session. That might look darker, which would visually imply denser hair coverage. Maybe that's a contributing factor too.
 
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