Don't worry too much about finasteride side effects...

marc_t

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Hi!

[Sorry for the long post but if you are concerned about finasteride side effects, reading is a MUST!]

My name is Marc and this is my first post on this forum. I finally decided to sign up today but I visited this forum a lot during the last year primarily in order to research the male pattern baldness drug propecia. I am 20 years old and have started losing my hair very early - about 2 years ago. About 6 months ago I went to my Doctor and was prescribed propecia but was scared to use it because of all these horror stories on the internet (propeciahelp.com, propeciasideeffects.com, and on hair loss forums...) and never took it.

I had to go to my doctor again because of a bacterial infection (totally unrelated to hair loss) and before I went home, I asked him again about the side effects of finasteride use. He said that he prescribed propecia to many patients and none (really NONE of them) had any problems. I showed him a lot of studies from the previously mentioned websites, especially about mental side effects because of reduced neurosteroid (allopregnanolone, ...) production. He told me that he does not have time to read this all up and said that it was all bullsh*t but if I wanted to know more about this topic, he can tell me the name of another Doctor who knows EVERYTHING about finasteride. So he gave me the name and I went to the door, in order to leave the room. Before I opened the door, the Doctor said "Haha, Allopregnanolone...". When I turned around, he said "by the way, I took finasteride myself for about a decade. No reason to be scared.".

So yesterday I went to this other doctor and I was amazed about how much he knew about finasteride. First of all, he told me that he prescribed propecia to very many people and only one patient had a gyno problem and had to stop using finasteride. He then brought many books documenting finasteride and a lot of studies that have been done regarding side effects. He showed me studies where people in the placebo group had higher incidences of loss of libido and impotence and then he showed me a nocebo study, where people in the group that knew about the side effects had almost 5 times more incidences than the other group who didn't know anything about sides. Regarding the studies I showed him about mental sides, he said that in humans, only 5AR type 1 is present in the brain and spinal chord and the synthesis of neurosteroids takes place there. And absolutely no 5AR type 2 is present there (He showed me this in a medical book). He then explained to me that in 5AR type 1 the neurosteroid production dominates over the T->DHT conversion and in 5AR type 2 the T->DHT conversion not only dominates but it's actually almost the only thing happening that is of use to the tissues containing 5AR type 2. According to him, 5AR type 2 is present only in the prostate, hair follicles and skin and no neurosteroids are produced there. "Do think you need neurosteroids in the prostate :) ?" he asked me. Well I said no and was pleased to hear that finasteride only inhibits 5AR type 2 (which he also showed me in another book). Many of the studies I showed him were done on rodents and according to the Doctor, 5AR type 1 and 2 is inhibited EQUALLY in rodents with finasteride that's why there was a reduction in neurosteroids and he said: "This does in no way extrapolate to humans who need an extremely high dose of finasteride to inhibit 5AR type 1" (don't remember the number but it was high - hundreds of milligrams as far as I remember. Then he told me that there are some people who think they are smart and take dutasteride for hair loss and he is totally against this thinking these people are a bit crazy. It might be better for male pattern baldness but the sides are more extreme and on dutasteride you most probably will actually get more sides than on finasteride and also serious mental sides are possible. It is also not recommended because of a very long half life and because dutasteride hasn't been researched properly for male pattern baldness. But regarding finasteride and mental effects (brain fog, etc.) I should not be concerned and the sexual sides are also negligible -> they are more psychological as seen in the placebo and nocebo studies. He then told me that he is also taking finasteride and has done so since approval and had 3 healthy kids while he was taking finasteride.

So, when I went home I decided to give finasteride a go and hope my hair loss (Norwood 2.5) will at least stop. I just wanted to share this with you because I was one of the ones that postponed taking finasteride for a long time because of some people who think that they have mental side effects or any other bullsh*t side effect.

(... and no, I don't work for merck and am not selling finasteride...)

EDIT: I no longer believe this -> see page 2.
 

marc_t

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I forgot mention: When I asked the Doctor: "Isn't it a logical consequence to get sexual sides when lowering the most potent male androgen by 80%?" the answer was, that THEORETICALLY more sides would be expected but there is an increase in testosterone but this THEORETICALLY is still nowhere compensating for the missing dht. He emphasized "theoretically" and said, that I should not treat pharmacy/medicine like mathematics; it's not an exact science and that I should better read EXPERIMENTAL STUDIES because that's actually what happens.

This Doctor has also the opinion that the sexual sides come mostly because of reduced dht and not from elevated estrogens except of gyno. According to him gyno only hits the ones who are already estrogen dominant (overweight people) and generally should not happen.

Just thought that I should add this...
 

Bryan

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That "nocebo" study of finasteride has been posted here more than once, and always causes some lively discussion! :)
 

Swanson

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cool post...

keep us updated on your progress with finasteride..

i assume your taking propecia and not a generic such as finpecia?
 

marc_t

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Swanson said:
cool post...

keep us updated on your progress with finasteride..

i assume your taking propecia and not a generic such as finpecia?

Yes I started with the real propecia (1 mg finasteride) but might change to proscar quartered some time soon because of the cost. I don't feel comfortable ordering any generics from the internet.
 

eth0

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out of interest, how much hair did the docs have? hehe

The sides are certianly not bullsh*t though.
I normally consider myself immune to things like this and was certain I wouldn't see sides when I first stated on finasteride. I was really suprised when my libido died and I had watery semen.
I wasn't worried about sides, I wasn't expecting them, or even thinking about them. So it wasn't my mind playing tricks on me when they finally appeared.

Anyhow, a great post with a lot of good information.

Thanks.
 

marc_t

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eth0 said:
out of interest, how much hair did the docs have? hehe

The first Doctor was about a NW3 and the second one NW2. Both of them had a good mental condition and none of them had visible gyno, just in case someone wanted to know this...

eth0 said:
The sides are certianly not bullsh*t though.
I normally consider myself immune to things like this and was certain I wouldn't see sides when I first stated on finasteride. I was really suprised when my libido died and I had watery semen.
I wasn't worried about sides, I wasn't expecting them, or even thinking about them. So it wasn't my mind playing tricks on me when they finally appeared.

Anyhow, a great post with a lot of good information.

Thanks.

He didn't say that sexual sides are bullsh*t but mental ones are. How long have you been on finasteride before the sides kicked in? In a lot of men, they disappear even when treatment is continued.
 

legion00

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marc_t said:
Hi!
He showed me studies where people in the placebo group had higher incidences of loss of libido and impotence and then he showed me a nocebo study, where people in the group that knew about the side effects had almost 5 times more incidences than the other group who didn't know anything about sides.

this illustrates what is perhaps the most common side-effect of finasteride- hypochondria.
 

metropolis

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Gentlemen, gentlemen, I agree that we shouldn't worry too much about finasteride side effects but we shouldn't disregard those who weren't so lucky and suffer from serious side effects. I believe most of the complaints we read on the Internet are genuine.

There's a lot about this subject that we don't know (e.g. long term side effects of finasteride), so let's be a bit more cautious, humble and diplomatic in our remarks.

Peace and love everyone.
 

kento

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There are lot of guys who used finasteride for more than 5 years and no sign of side. But here is my story.

I've started taking 0.25/0.5 mg finasteride for period of 2 months. After my second week I've started to feel testicular pain, now i've read that some users got that side at the begin and it went off so i continue taking the finasteride. After that i got watery sperm and some strange pain in the penis like there is no blood in it (don't know how to describe it because of my eng). So after two months of taking it i decide to stop.

You will not lose nothing if you try finasteride, maybe you are one of the lucky guys. But if you start feeling something strange with your libido stop using it.
 

amsch

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I have an above average estrogene level, and while on finasteride it was about 300% more than it should bbe at my age. :whistle: (not kidding, btw.)
 

Fanjeera

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marc_t said:
Swanson said:
cool post...

keep us updated on your progress with finasteride..

i assume your taking propecia and not a generic such as finpecia?

Yes I started with the real propecia (1 mg finasteride) but might change to proscar quartered some time soon because of the cost. I don't feel comfortable ordering any generics from the internet.
Ask about the difference between Proscar and Propecia as well then. Is he also supporting that cheaper way? I doubt my doctor is.
 

monitoradiation

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marc_t said:
Regarding the studies I showed him about mental sides, he said that in humans, only 5AR type 1 is present in the brain and spinal chord and the synthesis of neurosteroids takes place there. And absolutely no 5AR type 2 is present there (He showed me this in a medical book). He then explained to me that in 5AR type 1 the neurosteroid production dominates over the T->DHT conversion and in 5AR type 2 the T->DHT conversion not only dominates but it's actually almost the only thing happening that is of use to the tissues containing 5AR type 2. According to him, 5AR type 2 is present only in the prostate, hair follicles and skin and no neurosteroids are produced there.

That's pretty good to know. Thanks marc.
 

marc_t

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Fanjeera said:
Ask about the difference between Proscar and Propecia as well then. Is he also supporting that cheaper way? I doubt my doctor is.

I asked him when I was there. His answer was, that proscar and propecia have the same active ingredient namely finasteride. Propecia is just the 1mg version of proscar (5mg). He didn't prescribe me proscar but propecia and said, that I should ask at the drugstore for proscar; they usually hand it out with a propecia prescription.
 

marc_t

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Guys, I have bad news. I have been using propecia (1mg) for a week now and unfortunately I cannot tolerate this drug. I couldn't believe it but after 3 days I had heavy brain fog and a limp dick. As you can see from my first post, I started propecia with a positive attitude and I can guarantee you that these side effects were not psychological (my dick actually felt really different - it was scary as hell!).

I even believed my Doctor that brain fog from finasteride is bullsh*t and cannot believe that THIS side effect hit me. It's just not worth it for my hair. I quit using it today. I felt like a zombie on finasteride (still do but things should get better in a few days I guess).

Guys, it's your decision what you do but some people just can not tolerate finasteride (unfortunately I'm one of these). I can't handle finasteride and I think many people fool themselves into thinking they don't have sides. This drug can't be healthy in the long term. I'm talking about finasteride now; dutasteride is literally poison.

It's just my opinion - as I said, do whatever you want. I just want to say, that I cannot endorse using finasteride as a hair loss treatment. I take back everything I said in the first 2 posts as I think it is misinformation. I cannot take any responsibility for people starting finasteride.

Anyways, good luck...
 

Fanjeera

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Of course. Read this: http://www.askapatient.com/viewrating.a ... e=propecia
Please stay away from finasteride (Propecia, Proscar, etc.) It is simply not worth the risk. Many have zero or reversible side effects. But these side effects are personality, sexuality, and LIFE ALTERING in a profound and devastating way. I took this drug off/on for 2 years (2001-2003) and experienced side effects after about 6 months, first noticing increased libido and heightened anxiety, then an inability to handle stress (like being unable to think during exams in graduate school, which I had NEVER experienced before), "brain fog", then finally ear ringing and muscle twitches. These last problems brought me to a neurologist who did several tests including an MRI (normal). No doctor suspected the Propecia. I finally stopped taking it and noticed an improvement. Then I would take it off and on, and clearly saw the pattern of side effects that followed when I had taken the drug. After stopping taking it for good, I experienced a month of feeling wonderful, then all of the previous symptoms came back with additional ones (like a complete drop in libido). Six years later, I still do not feel like myself and have ALL of the side effects to some extent, with some still severe. I have seen several doctors, and am currently seeing a doctor, a psychologist and have seen psychiatrists to get help dealing with the aftermath of this drug. Is holding onto your hair for any additional amount of time worth this?
It helped me a lot for almost 10 years regarding my hair problem but now to seems to not help anymore. I loose my hair like before I started to take it. Moreover, I am not able to have another child since my sperms are not mobil. I don't talk about my brain frog. Before I started, my memory was great, you could ask me the name of any member of almost any band in the world and I was able to name it. Now, I have a huge memory problem and it is sometime very difficult to have a discussion with someone else since once in a while I am not able to remember a very common word (even a word that we use oftenly) or I don't remember the name of the guy I work with for 2 years, things like that... It is very hard to accept.
Mental side effect of tripping/stumbling/fumbling over words when speaking to others, especially when I want to throw out a quick/witty one liner, I am "scared" that I'll f*** it up. While it is a mental side effect, I'm sure the basis is physical at the cellular level. No sexual or physical side effects noticed.
THIS ONE IS VERY SERIOUS ALSO: http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=19807
 

marc_t

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@brentx: I'm sorry; I guess reality speaks for itself.

@Fanjeera: Wow, this is scary!

Guys, I can only recommend you to stay away. finasteride will ruin your health. In some people it happens after 1 week and in some after a decade. Trust me, it's not worth it for your hair!!

Another thing: I read that merck has a profit of 400 million dollars annualy from propecia. Let's do a calculation:

400000000 dollars / 12 months = 33333333.33 dollars profit per month
33333333.33 dollars / 80 dollars for a monthly supply for one man = 416666.66 men worldwide who use propecia. Let's be generous and round this up to 500000 men. Lets say that the number of men using generics is 3 times as high. So the number of men worldwide who use finasteride for male pattern baldness is 500000 + 3*500000 = 2 million men. How many many balding man do you think live on this world?? Just something to think about...
 

brentx

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You really need to think about AFTER and BEFORE.

Here are some questions I've asked myself since starting this drug over 2 years ago..

Do I have a low libido and erection problems AFTER Finasteride? YES, sometimes it take me a long time to get it up!

Did I have a low libido and erection problems BEFORE Finasteride? YES, one time I was with a girl and I was so nervous I just couldn't get it up AT ALL!

Do I have concentration problems AFTER Finasteride? Yeah, it's pretty up and down. Sometimes I'm sharp, sometimes I just can't think!

Did I have concentration problems BEFORE Finasteride? Yeah, I used to fall asleep in class because I couldn't focus!

Do my balls ache AFTER Finasteride? After I jizz sometimes, yeah. Sometimes for no reason at all!

Did my balls ache BEFORE Finasteride? Holy sh*t, there is a pattern here! Yeah, I did get aching balls sometimes!

No amount of anecdotal evidence can disprove the science. There have been studies on Finasteride that scientifically prove the drug is extremely well tolerated in more than 95% of guys who take it.

Anyway, that's how I justify my "sides". I don't consider these things to be Finasteride related because they've always existed. MOST of the time I'm fine, but somedays I feel a little off, it's normal.
 
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