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Does DIM really inhibit DHT? And is the good estrogen it...

Discussion in 'Men's General Hair Loss Discussions' started by Losingmyhair, Sep 21, 2007.

  1. Losingmyhair

    Losingmyhair Member

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    Hi, Does DIM really inhibit DHT? If so why do people take this instead of saw palmetto which isn't proven to inhibit blood serum level of DHT?
    Is the good estrogen it increases beneficial for hair loss? I take proscar 1.25mgbut I would love to add this more because it decreases the bad estrogen. I heard high estrogen level can cause hair loss. Is it the bad one only? Thanks in advance.
     
  2. SkylineGTR

    SkylineGTR Experienced Member

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    as far as i heard DIM just helps metabolize estrogen. Does nothing in terms of DHT.
    Kind of a herbal alternative to taking clomid or tamaxofen for estrogen related side effects. (water retention / gyno)
     
  3. purecontrol

    purecontrol Member

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    What it does is increase healthy metabolism of estrogens in the body, there are two ways things get done aerobic and anearobic, you are in an anearobic state when you pH and general oxygen levels are low. This is a result of getting old and being extremely unhealthy, so DIM increase the bodies ability to metabolism the estorgens in your body in an aerobic state.

    You end up with more good estrogens that actually act as anti-oxidants instead of oxidants which if you remember cause hair loss.

    DIM and I3C are still relatively new especially to the hair loss scene.

    Further more you can have the levels of these estrogens tested for if you wish.

    Estrogens can be good or bad just like androgens can be good or bad.

    The most information come from women that are using it, and the results have been amazing from what I have read.

    IMO this is the next leap in hair loss is increasing conversion of estrogen to as much good estrogens as possbile while keeping estrogen at a normal level ie has high before unwanted side effect which will be relative.

    Very simular to what Bryan has said but not as general as saying all estrogens are created equally as they are not
     
  4. Namaste

    Namaste New Member

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    Interesting. I just bought two bottles of Nature's Way DIM-plus. I bought it because I am taking Avodart (going on 4 months) and am a little worried that blocking the conversion of testosterone to DHT will result in more Testosterone being converted to Estrogen (i.e., I want to avoid gyno). Notably, I just had my total testosterone and estrogen levels tested. The testosterone was in the middle of the normal range. Surprisingly, my estrogen levels were below normal. I was expecting my testosterone and estrogen levels to be a little higher. I intend to get my DHT levels tested next week to make sure my Avodart pills are not fake (I don't think they are as I order them from RxUSA, which is a U.S. pharmacy, and I am paying approx $100 for 30 pills). Based on my tests, I am not sure it makes sense to start taking the DIM supplements. I suppose if it increases good estrogens and decreases bad estrogens (but doesn't decrease overall estrogen levels) it would still make sense to take them.
     
  5. Artista

    Artista Member

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    Dim has the ingredient found in broccoli, brussels sprouts, cabbage, cauliflower and kale that does this. Why not just eat more of these veggies instead of a pill?
     
  6. Losingmyhair

    Losingmyhair Member

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    Plant derived 3,3'-diindolylmethane is a strong androgen antagonist in human prostate cancer cells
    Hien T. Le, Charlene M. Schaldach, Gary L. Firestone, and Leonard F. Bjeldanes
    Nutritional Sciences and Toxicology, University of California at Berkeley, Berkekey, CA 94720

    Corresponding Author: lfb@nature.berkeley.edu

    3,3’-Diindolylmethane (DIM), is a major digestive product of indole-3-carbinol (I3C), a potential anticancer component of cruciferous vegetables. Our results indicate that DIM exhibits potent antiproliferative and antiandrogenic properties in androgen dependent human prostate cancer cells. DIM suppresses cell proliferation of LNCaP cells and inhibits dihydrotestosterone (DHT) stimulation of DNA synthesis. These activities were not produced in androgen independent PC-3 cells. Moreover, DIM inhibited endogenous PSA transcription and reduced intracellular and secreted PSA protein levels induced by DHT in LNCaP cells. Also, DIM inhibited, in a concentration dependent manner, the DHT-induced expression of a PSA promoter regulated reporter gene construct in transiently transfected LNCaP cells. Similar effects of DIM were observed in PC-3 cells only when these cells were co-transfected with a wild type androgen receptor expression plasmid. Using fluorescence imaging with GFP-AR and Western blot analysis, we demonstrated that DIM inhibited androgen-induced AR translocation into the nucleus. Results of receptor binding assays indicated further that DIM is a strong competitive inhibitor of DHT binding to the AR. Results of structural modeling studies showed that DIM is remarkably similar in conformational geometry and surface charge distribution to an established synthetic AR antagonist although the atomic compositions of the two substances are quite different. Taken together with our published reports of the estrogen agonist activities of DIM, the present results establish DIM as a unique bifunctional hormone disrupter. To our knowledge, DIM is the first example of a pure androgen receptor antagonist from plants.

    http://www.jbc.org/cgi/content/abstract/M300588200v1

    It does have antiandrogen effect.
     
  7. Namaste

    Namaste New Member

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    Artista,

    Based on the articles I have seen, you would have to eat an enormous amount of those vegetibles to accomplish the desired effect -- more than your digestive system could handle. As a side note, for a long time DIM extracts were poorly absorbed by the body. Supposedly, a guy named Dr. Zeligs developed a formula that had better bioavailability and he has patented the technology to numerous supplement makers, including Nature's Way.

    Loingmyhair,

    That is an interesting article. It seems to indicate that DIM competes with DHT for androgen receptors (i.e., it binds to receptors so DHT cannot). What is particularly interesting is that this mechanism is potentially a different way of reducing the effect of DHT than finasteride or dutasteride (both of which reduce the conversion of testosterone into DHT, not DHT's ability to bind to ARs).
     
  8. Bryan

    Bryan Senior Member

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    Can you cite a reference for the claim that some estrogens act as pro-oxidants?

    Are you claiming that some androgens are good for scalp hair? Got a reference for that one?

    Obviously they vary in potency. Not sure about the other claims.
     
  9. purecontrol

    purecontrol Member

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    That is why certain estrogens cause cancer, and others help prevent it


    Never said that, however I will state that testosterone in general is a whole heck of a lot better for the human body man or woman than DHT, some androgen have a far far greater overal androgenic effect than others


    Yes that is the point, more good estrogen less bad estrogen. Bad estrogens = cancer in both men and women cancer = all the foes that acompany hair loss TGF-beta ect Which has been demonstrated to have a direct correlation to hair loss.

    Cancer is caused by abnormal levels and abnormal duration to oxidative stress, ie cancer can not live in an oxgenated enviroment aerobic one. They thrive in an anerobic one, SOD for instance combates this oxidative stress as well as others and just so happens to regrow hair.

    We have seen DHT causing its havock due to? abnormal oxidative stress, thus causing a cascade effect ie TGF ect.
     
  10. purecontrol

    purecontrol Member

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    Searching the web you will find that the problem here is not with high estrogen perse but too much bad estrogen but rather the form, as certain estrogen will have a much higher pronounced "estrogen" type effect ie gyno, weight gain, acne, ect. So the good estrogen would not have such high degree of negative affect given the same amount and as Bryan has show may actually benefit you far more than negatively effect you.

    It is simular to comparing DHT to Testosterone, if you just simply measured androgen levels you would not see the full picture. As you would much rather have all testosterone than all DHT.

    This is where DIM comes in, it may increase the amount of good estrogens, but not only that it makes sure that those bad estrogens stay around only for as long as they are supposed to and helps the body properly metabolise them ie urinating them out as it should be instead of them hanging around.

    It does this with DHT as well as testosterone, infact some studies shows that DIM actually decreases the amount of testosterone when the levels are of an abnormal level. It helps to even everything out.

    This makes it look even better for hair loss, as you end up with less estrogen side effects but more estrogen benefits, as well as less androgen related side effects.

    So perhaps this is something for us to start using, it has been around for some time and has worked wonders for many women old and young as well as many men suffering BHP disorders.

    I am not saying that DIM is some golden ticket but rather that this is an area that we need to pursue. Bryan posted the studies showing that estrogens can indeed be good for you and i have posted studies showing that they can be very bad for you. The goal is to get the right estrogens to gain the benefits and to avoid the unwanted side effects of the bad estrogens
     
  11. purecontrol

    purecontrol Member

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    Can you guarantee the amount that each type of broccoli will have, can you guarantee that I will metabolise X amount?

    It is not that simple as the I3C need to be metabolised to DIM, and even then you would not be sure what dose you are getting.

    Further more inorder to get the desired effect you would have to be eating that stuff all day long every day which would cause problems all in it's self.

    That is why people use a standardized extract, so that they only get what they want and nothing else along with knowing the exact amount they are getting. Not to mention the convenience
     
  12. purecontrol

    purecontrol Member

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    Very good find, I have not seen that study. I did not know this function, it looks like it is worth a try, but I don't think we should get our hopes too high until we see some results.

    I think that using polyphenols that compete with estrogens are a good idea as well as they act as strong anti-oxidants at the receptor and also compete with DHT and Testosterone. Remember anti-oxidants help regrow hair ie Pomegranate, Chocamine, Apple poly ect.

    They help lower TGF-beta ect, so this could be something else to consider in helping.
     
  13. abcdefg

    abcdefg Senior Member

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    That all being said where is a good reliable place to buy DIM supplements that are absorbed and of good quality?
     
  14. 1750

    1750 Member

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    DIM did nothing to assist with gyno symptoms brought about by finasteride for me….
    You’re chemically altering your hormones with fin….

    Bring on the chemical battle to counteract each different chemicals side affects…. Or just don’t take any of them...
     
  15. Bryan

    Bryan Senior Member

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    I think that's just a hypothesis of yours. Again I'm asking you: can you back it up with scientific evidence?

    It sure sounds to ME like you said that!!! :shock: Here is what you specifically said:

    "Estrogens can be good or bad just like androgens can be good or bad."

    Since this is all in the context of growing hair, and you've made a similar claim that estrogens can be "good or bad" for hair, why on earth would you also say that "androgens can be good or bad [just like estrogens]", if you weren't specifically referring to their effect on hair??

    I think you've gone off the deep end with this "good estrogen, bad estrogen" silliness.
     
  16. Losingmyhair

    Losingmyhair Member

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    As far is DIM is concern I believe it's a good or one of the best natural add one to ones regimen.
    1750, If u had gyno I doubt any medication will help u with that. The only way to get rid of it's with surgery or by stopping the medication the gyno develpoment is in it's early stage.
     
  17. liquidfirex

    liquidfirex Junior Member

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    There are a few things that CAN help with gyno, such as aromatize inhibitors or http://www.bulknutrition.com/?products_id=5643

    "Epistaneâ„¢ binds specifically to the 17?-estradiol receptor protein in the target tissues. Because of its long lasting and strong effects on specific tissue, Epistaneâ„¢ can significantly reduce and reverse the effects of gynocomastia because not only does Epistaneâ„¢ specifically block estrogen in breast tissue but it induces an estrogen-depleted condition which leads to apoptosis or the death of the breast tissue cells."

    Kinda scary sounding, and I think it technically is a steroid.
     
  18. abcdefg

    abcdefg Senior Member

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    The only reason anyone takes crap like finasteride is because nothing else is proven to work. You have to alter your hormones because your hormones are unfortunately the problem when your hair is vulnerable. I dread starting propecia im not sure if the peace of doing what i can will make up for the scare of what might happen to you from the propecia. I might just go bald and live with it.
     
  19. 1750

    1750 Member

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    Thanks for the replies losingmyhair and liquidfirex..... I may just give Epistaneâ„¢ a try as Novaldex makes me feel like crap.... and doesn't help one bit...
    My main problem based on discussions with my doctor is that finasteride screws with my prolactin levels therefore much of my gyno is caused from both high estrogen & prolactin levels.
    As I had puebertal gyno the only way I am really going to get rid of it is surgery.... as it's not overly noticeable at this stage I am simply dropping my finasteride dosage and seeing what happens with my blood tests... (I may just drop it altogether and give up the hairloss battle)

    Finasteride just doesn't agree with some of us.... unfortunately it's been the only thing to work for my hair...
     
  20. 1750

    1750 Member

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    I sent the following to Bulk Nutrition to find out about Epistane (read from the bottom regarding my email and then their response)
    From the below it sounds like it will make hairloss worse or counteract what Fin is doing -
    ...........................................................
    Epistane has knocked out gyno completely by so many of my customers. Hence the reason it has jumped up so fast on the best seller list. It is a DHT-Testosterone that will increase test levels as well as block estrogen. You still would need to do a pct as it is a test product.

    Thanks

    On 9/24/07, wrote:
    Hi There –
    I have issues with Gyno brought on through Finasteride (a DHT inhibitor (5AR reductase inhibitor)).

    I have naturally high testosterone and estrogen levels and Finasteride only exaggerates this issue and causes me gyno from high T to conversion and prolactin levels….

    Will Epistane increase my testosterone? (I do not want this as despite it being an anti-estrogen I seem to get rebound effects when I stop using a product that elevates my testosterone - making my gyno worse…. Rebound Reloaded was not cool).

    Nolvadex combined with AIFM, Yohimbe ES, Cabser and 2hrs of daily exercise has not worked very well for me and I'm hoping to maybe replace Nolvadex with Epistane…

    Please advise so I can decide whether this product is right for me to purchase

    Many thanks
     

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