Dkk1 Inhibition with L-Threonate | HairLossTalk Forums

Dkk1 Inhibition with L-Threonate

Discussion in 'Hair Loss and Alopecia Published Studies' started by newest_dude, Feb 5, 2014.

  1. newest_dude

    newest_dude New Member

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    Hi Everyone,
    I've just stumbled across these (my apologies if they are already common knowledge). L-threonate and L-ascorbic acid can inhibit Dkk1. The authors of the study suggest their use in preventing Androgenetic Alopecia.
    What do you guys think? If I understand correctly, Dkk1 is the next thing in the process we can target after DHT.
    Are their any downsides anyone knows about?

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    Forgot to add studies:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21034532
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20701628
     
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  2. peacemaker

    peacemaker Banned

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  3. Sparky4444

    Sparky4444 Senior Member

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    ...but what's the treatment??
     
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  4. peacemaker

    peacemaker Banned

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    Ideally, the treatment would be (if its safety is proven) to apply it as a topical 1-2 days after wounding everyday for 3-4 days. Its function would be to block PGD2's from being formed on your scalp that would prevent new follicle formation. As growth factors are released toward the end of inflammation, blocking dkk1 would help follicles grow without any hinderance.

    However, in order for people to integrate this into their regimens, we have to learn about 3 things:
    1- its safety profile
    2- how much to apply (can be determined through experimentation)
    2- the size of its molecules (the vehicle we would need to apply it)

    This is a good start though. I believe we shouldn't be constrained with only this as there should be other chemicals that are effective in blocking dkk1 as well. However, because we have a few studies already at hand about this, we can dive deeper and find the best way to integrate this into our treatment methods. I am definitely adding this to my list (together with Vit B12 and Vit C, as 2young suggested)
     
  5. I.D WALKER

    I.D WALKER Senior Member

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    Good find Newest.

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    I agree considering it appears the abstract may have been released published @2010. Interesting just the same.
     
  6. Armando Jose

    Armando Jose Senior Member My Regimen

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    Exp Dermatol.
    2010 Dec;19(12):1110-2. doi: 10.1111/j.1600-0625.2010.01143.x.

    [h=1]L-ascorbic acid 2-phosphate represses the dihydrotestosterone-induced dickkopf-1 expression in human balding dermal papilla cells.[/h]Kwack MH, Kim MK, Kim JC, Sung YK.
    [h=3]Abstract[/h]Recent studies suggested that dihydrotestosterone (DHT)-driven alteration in the autocrine and paracrine factors may be a key to androgen-potentiated balding. Also, we recently claimed that DHT-inducible dickkopf-1 (DKK-1) is one of the key factors involved in the androgen-potentiated balding. Here, we investigated whether L-ascorbic acid 2-phosphate (Asc 2-P), a derivative of L-ascorbic acid, could attenuate DHT-induced DKK-1 expression in dermal papilla cells (DPCs) from balding scalp. We observed that DHT-induced DKK-1 mRNA expression was attenuated in the presence of Asc 2-P as examined by RT-PCR analysis. In addition, we found that DHT-induced activation of luciferase reporter activity was significantly repressed when Asc 2-P was added together with DHT. Moreover, Asc 2-P repressed DHT-induced DKK-1 protein expression as examined by enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA). Although there will be many hurdles to apply our finding to actual remedies, these results suggest that it would be worthy to evaluate Asc 2-P or its derivatives for the treatment and prevention of androgen-driven balding.


    It is important know the self life of the possible products to use in topical preparations
     
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  7. newest_dude

    newest_dude New Member

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  8. TheHandsomeLurker

    TheHandsomeLurker Established Member

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    This is certainly the most promising thing I've seen so far. I believe this is a link to the abstract, but it's not a study. I would assume that their work was done in scalp tissue taken from bald men, so we'll have to see if it works in trials.
     
  9. drgs

    drgs Banned

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    http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interac...eonate-can-prevent-DHT-from-upregulating-DKK1

    They used Calcium-L-Threonate in the study.
    I tried
    Magnesium-L-Threonate for two weeks, it made me sleepy and lethargic (magnesium has that effect)

    I guess
    Calcium-L-Threonate would be better


    However,
    DKK-1 inhibits cancer and apparently lack of DKK-1 will make your bones grow (no, not in length) and joints fuse together or something

    Body cannot grow indefinitely over time, thats why we have DKK-1

     
  10. peacemaker

    peacemaker Banned

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    That's why we need either a weak Dkk1 inhibitor (Vit C) or a strong TOPICAL dkk1 inhibitor (there are some possible ones, but no idea how to prepare a topical or if they're safe).
     
  11. newest_dude

    newest_dude New Member

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    UPDATE:

    I got in touch with the authors of the study. Apparently this is being used at a hair transplant clinic. I called and got the following info.

    Results: The results are comparable to Minoxidil (or slightly weaker), but treatment was only being done once very 2-4 weeks. That seems quite promising to me. If it were done more often we'd have something very powerful.
    Why was is treatment done so seldom? Because it's a hassle. Threonate is rapidly metabolised into Vitamin C when you apply it topically so it's not effective unless you use an iontophoresis machine, which meant patients had to go into the clinic each time for treatment.

    Take-away: I'd be interested in pursuing this. Does anybody know anything about iontophoresis machines? Are they easy to use? I know you can get budget ones on eBay but I don't know whether they're any good.
     
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  12. waynakyo

    waynakyo Experienced Member

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    Which clinic, which guys you contacted? How come no one replied to your post... I am intersted in hearing more..

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    There are other dkk inhibitors maybe, kane is selling one but no one tried i think
     
  13. Armando Jose

    Armando Jose Senior Member My Regimen

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    newest_dude, Please talk more of your conversations with the clinic and the process. BTW iontophoresis machines are easy to use, only moving the device in the skin/scalp
     
  14. Thor9

    Thor9 Member

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    So Magnesium L-Threonate inhibits Dkk1 but is metabolized during absorption? Maybe we can do a liposomal encapsulation like they do with other forms of vitamin c (ascorbic acid) so it does not metabolize...
     
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  15. HairCook

    HairCook Experienced Member My Regimen

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    Im soon gonna test a close to 2% l-threonate topical (with other stuff).

    What is the source behind l-threonate being metabolized to vitC? I am asking cause it doesnt sound plausible as
    the threonate is metabolit of vitC and not the other way around.
     
  16. Trax1

    Trax1 Member My Regimen

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    I'm familiar with iontophoresis (galvanic) procedure, the only purpose of iontophoresis is increasing the delivery level of the drug through the skin. So if the only thing that we should do it increase delivery amount - then derma pen or hydroneedl could be used for the same purpose.

    btw there is a lot of iontophoresis stuff from home care for example -
    https://www.ebay.com.my/itm/Iontoph...085040?hash=item3f860f3c30:g:zdwAAOSwtIBZrBYJ
    https://www.amazon.com/VISS-Wrinkle-Galvanic-Iontophoresis-Anti-wrinkle/dp/B01NAIKVC0/
    and tons of other devices
     
  17. Trichosan

    Trichosan Senior Member My Regimen

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    ..."DHT-inducible dickkopf-1 (DKK-1) is one of the key factors involved in the androgen-potentiated balding."...

    Dickkopf. Well that's appropriate for baldies. Sehr Gut!

    Seriously though, this is some very enlightening information. Following closely.
     
  18. Aethas

    Aethas Established Member My Regimen

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    I dont understand... is there a way to do this at home once each 2-4weeks?? Would be perfect with dermaroll
     
  19. BaldAsshole

    BaldAsshole Established Member My Regimen

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    This is a thousand times more promising than most things discussed here these days. Any information? Any experience? ND sells MgLT at a very reasonable cost, it is feasible to experiment with it.
     
  20. HairCook

    HairCook Experienced Member My Regimen

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    In private forums ppl gb'd back in the days calcium threonate.

    I forgot the reason, but apparenty that form should be used. And no, I didnt hear of anyone having success.
    It is probably not potent enough and Dkk1 seems to be generally not be the biggest factor.

    https://revivserums.com/products/placode-booster-serum?variant=21932073863

    Here they sell an interesting peptide one could try to even inject after microneedling.
     

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