5% Minoxidil vs 10%

hp6480

New Member
I've been using 5%min for about 1.5 months and don't plan to switch to 10% yet. I was hoping maybe around the 4 month mark. I was just wondering if I could use the 10% only at night since it's stronger rather than the 5% both AM and PM? Any thoughts?
 

Bryan

Senior Member
Staff member
I would avoid anything advertising itself as "10% minoxidil", since it hasn't been tested clinically.
 

Einstein

Established Member
Bryan said:
I would avoid anything advertising itself as "10% minoxidil", since it hasn't been tested clinically.

I thought I've read a few of your older posts saying something to the nature of the more minoxidil the better the results. Has something changed your mind?
 

Bryan

Senior Member
Staff member
Einstein said:
I thought I've read a few of your older posts saying something to the nature of the more minoxidil the better the results. Has something changed your mind?

I've very rarely said anything about higher percentages of minoxidil (higher than the standard 5%). Perhaps you were a bit confused by something I said in the past about HOW MUCH liquid minoxidil to use at a time (0.25 mL per dose, 0.5 mL per dose, 0.75 mL per dose, 1 mL per dose, etc.).
 

Einstein

Established Member
Bryan said:
Einstein said:
I thought I've read a few of your older posts saying something to the nature of the more minoxidil the better the results. Has something changed your mind?

I've very rarely said anything about higher percentages of minoxidil (higher than the standard 5%). Perhaps you were a bit confused by something I said in the past about HOW MUCH liquid minoxidil to use at a time (0.25 mL per dose, 0.5 mL per dose, 0.75 mL per dose, 1 mL per dose, etc.).

You're right, I remember now. I asked that rather than paying more for the 15% solutions can one simply use more of the 5% solution and you said yes; like in your quote above.

Anyway, you still don't believe more minoxiidl will yield better results? We know so far from studies that better results are achieved from increasing the %age: 1%to 2% to 3% to 4% to 5% - the higher the better as shown in studies. Using that logic alone, can't one assume 6% to 15% will give better results than 5%? I believe it's dose related. In the past I personally witnessed better results using between 3-4 ml of 5% solutuon, and at that time I had no ideaIwasincreasing the percentage - I just wanted to cover my whole scalp. Of course, I also witnessed a slightly bloated face as well (I applied on a pretty damp scalp increasing the absorption).
 

Bryan

Senior Member
Staff member
Einstein said:
Anyway, you still don't believe more minoxiidl will yield better results?

Sure I do! We all know that topical minoxidil is dose-dependent; the effect that you get in growing hair depends on how much total minoxidil you apply (at least, up to a certain point).

Einstein said:
We know so far from studies that better results are achieved from increasing the %age: 1%to 2% to 3% to 4% to 5% - the higher the better as shown in studies. Using that logic alone, can't one assume 6% to 15% will give better results than 5%? I believe it's dose related.

Maybe, but what concerns me is that we don't actually know what vehicle they're using in something advertised as being "15% minoxidil". All you can dissolve in pure propylene glycol is a maximum of about 7.5% minoxidil, so what are they using in that other product? :dunno: Is it something that's possibly dangerous or toxic? Is there some other reason not to be using it? That's a question I'd be asking myself every day, if presented with a "15% minoxidil" product.

Einstein said:
In the past I personally witnessed better results using between 3-4 ml of 5% solutuon, and at that time I had no ideaIwasincreasing the percentage - I just wanted to cover my whole scalp.

Anytime someone uses even ordinary 2% or 5% Rogaine, it becomes about a 7.5% solution. The highly volatile components of the vehicle (alcohol and water) evaporate fairly quickly, leaving behind the minoxidil dissolved in propylene glycol. As I said earlier, that's a maximum of about 7.5% or so.
 

Einstein

Established Member
Bryan said:
Einstein said:
Anyway, you still don't believe more minoxiidl will yield better results?

Sure I do! We all know that topical minoxidil is dose-dependent; the effect that you get in growing hair depends on how much total minoxidil you apply (at least, up to a certain point).

Einstein said:
We know so far from studies that better results are achieved from increasing the %age: 1%to 2% to 3% to 4% to 5% - the higher the better as shown in studies. Using that logic alone, can't one assume 6% to 15% will give better results than 5%? I believe it's dose related.

Maybe, but what concerns me is that we don't actually know what vehicle they're using in something advertised as being "15% minoxidil". All you can dissolve in pure propylene glycol is a maximum of about 7.5% minoxidil, so what are they using in that other product? :dunno: Is it something that's possibly dangerous or toxic? Is there some other reason not to be using it? That's a question I'd be asking myself every day, if presented with a "15% minoxidil" product.

Einstein said:
In the past I personally witnessed better results using between 3-4 ml of 5% solutuon, and at that time I had no ideaIwasincreasing the percentage - I just wanted to cover my whole scalp.

Anytime someone uses even ordinary 2% or 5% Rogaine, it becomes about a 7.5% solution. The highly volatile components of the vehicle (alcohol and water) evaporate fairly quickly, leaving behind the minoxidil dissolved in propylene glycol. As I said earlier, that's a maximum of about 7.5% or so.


Hang on. So we agree that minoxidil is dose dependant, but you're also saying the maximum minoxidil %age you can get is 7.5%? If for example 3ml of the 5% liquid were used for one application, that adds up to 15% of minoxidil. However, you're saying the maximum we can get is 7.5%?

(When I say minoxidil I'm refering to rogaine foam as well).
 

Bryan

Senior Member
Staff member
Einstein said:
Hang on. So we agree that minoxidil is dose dependant, but you're also saying the maximum minoxidil %age you can get is 7.5%? If for example 3ml of the 5% liquid were used for one application, that adds up to 15% of minoxidil. However, you're saying the maximum we can get is 7.5%?

I'm saying that the maximum percentage you can get in pure propylene glycol is about 7.5% or so. Anything that uses a higher percentage like 15% is using some other vehicle, or some other chemical "tricks", other than what ordinary Rogaine uses.
 

LookingGood!

Experienced Member
Is PPG really necessary? It's greasy and a pain in the neck because it makes you feel dirty. My question really is does the PPG make the minoxidil more effective? Dr Lee used to sell it without the PPG and stated it won't make a difference in the effectiveness but his response seemed anecdotal at best but I didn't press the issue.

If I take stronger minoxidil without PPG will it make a difference?

Thanks!

LG
 

Bryan

Senior Member
Staff member
LookingGood! said:
Is PPG really necessary? It's greasy and a pain in the neck because it makes you feel dirty. My question really is does the PPG make the minoxidil more effective? Dr Lee used to sell it without the PPG and stated it won't make a difference in the effectiveness but his response seemed anecdotal at best but I didn't press the issue.

If I take stronger minoxidil without PPG will it make a difference?

It depends on what you replace it with. If you don't replace it with anything at all but simply remove the propylene glycol, you'll have a couple of problems on your hands:

1) Minoxidil won't dissolve to 5% in pure ethanol and water. I'm forgetting now how much will dissolve in pure ethanol, but I'm vaguely recalling that it's something like 1% or 2%.

2) Once the ethanol and water evaporate after applying the minoxidil solution to your scalp (won't take long for that to happen), the dissolved minoxidil will crystallize and sit uselessly on your scalp.

The major reasons for using propylene glycol in the first place are (1) to dissolve the minoxidil more thoroughly and completely, and (2) (probably the most important reason) to hold the minoxidil in solution against the scalp, after the ethanol and water evaporate.
 

Einstein

Established Member
Bryan said:
LookingGood! said:
Is PPG really necessary? It's greasy and a pain in the neck because it makes you feel dirty. My question really is does the PPG make the minoxidil more effective? Dr Lee used to sell it without the PPG and stated it won't make a difference in the effectiveness but his response seemed anecdotal at best but I didn't press the issue.

If I take stronger minoxidil without PPG will it make a difference?

It depends on what you replace it with. If you don't replace it with anything at all but simply remove the propylene glycol, you'll have a couple of problems on your hands:

1) Minoxidil won't dissolve to 5% in pure ethanol and water. I'm forgetting now how much will dissolve in pure ethanol, but I'm vaguely recalling that it's something like 1% or 2%.

2) Once the ethanol and water evaporate after applying the minoxidil solution to your scalp (won't take long for that to happen), the dissolved minoxidil will crystallize and sit uselessly on your scalp.

The major reasons for using propylene glycol in the first place are (1) to dissolve the minoxidil more thoroughly and completely, and (2) (probably the most important reason) to hold the minoxidil in solution against the scalp, after the ethanol and water evaporate.


What other alternatives just as good are there then (on the market) if PG is not used/replaced?

And how does rogaine foam work so well without PG?
 

Bryan

Senior Member
Staff member
Einstein said:
What other alternatives just as good are there then (on the market) if PG is not used/replaced?

Oh, I'm sure there are other chemicals that have the same general effect as propylene glycol, although I wouldn't go so far as to say that they're "just as good" as propylene glycol. One of them would be glycerin, which has been used for versions of topical minoxidil which are designed specifically for people who are sensitive to propylene glycol. Glycerin doesn't penetrate the skin as well as propylene glycol, but it's certainly better than not using anything at all.

Einstein said:
And how does rogaine foam work so well without PG?

I don't know. I'm not aware of all the ingredients in Rogaine Foam.
 

Einstein

Established Member
Bryan said:
Einstein said:
What other alternatives just as good are there then (on the market) if PG is not used/replaced?

Oh, I'm sure there are other chemicals that have the same general effect as propylene glycol, although I wouldn't go so far as to say that they're "just as good" as propylene glycol. One of them would be glycerin, which has been used for versions of topical minoxidil which are designed specifically for people who are sensitive to propylene glycol. Glycerin doesn't penetrate the skin as well as propylene glycol, but it's certainly better than not using anything at all.

Einstein said:
And how does rogaine foam work so well without PG?

I don't know. I'm not aware of all the ingredients in Rogaine Foam.

Fyi, I just looked it up:

Minoxidil

Butylated Hydroxytoluene (BHT)

Emollients

Lactic Acid

Glycerin

Purified Water

http://www.livestrong.com/article/10927 ... gredients/

I had no clue it had Glycerin. So if it Glycerin doesn't penetrate as well as PG does that make the rogaine liquid form more potent than the foam?
 

Bryan

Senior Member
Staff member
Einstein said:
I had no clue it had Glycerin. So if it Glycerin doesn't penetrate as well as PG does that make the rogaine liquid form more potent than the foam?

I'm not sure. There's always been an assumption on hairloss sites like this that Rogaine Foam works better than the original liquid version, but I don't know how valid that is. It seems to be based on a statement made in some advertising for Rogaine Foam, but I don't know if it's really true.

Recently (in the last month or two), I posted something on one of these sites, asking if anybody knows of any actual studies published in medical journals that found the foam to be more effective than the liquid. I don't think anybody ever got back to me on that.
 

Einstein

Established Member
Bryan said:
Einstein said:
I had no clue it had Glycerin. So if it Glycerin doesn't penetrate as well as PG does that make the rogaine liquid form more potent than the foam?

I'm not sure. There's always been an assumption on hairloss sites like this that Rogaine Foam works better than the original liquid version, but I don't know how valid that is. It seems to be based on a statement made in some advertising for Rogaine Foam, but I don't know if it's really true.

Recently (in the last month or two), I posted something on one of these sites, asking if anybody knows of any actual studies published in medical journals that found the foam to be more effective than the liquid. I don't think anybody ever got back to me on that.


What do you think of this:

THE JOURNAL OF INVESTIGATIVE DERMATOLOGY
ABSTRACTS A1
124:4 APRIL 2005
Uptake of minoxidil from a new foam formulation devoid of propylene glycol to hamster ear hair follicles
R Stehle,1 G Ewing,1 J Rundegren2 and B Kohut2 1 Pharmaceutical Sciences, Pfizer, Inc, Kalamazoo, MI and 2 Consumer Healthcare, Pfizer, Inc, Morris Plains, NJ

Post-marketing studies show that the present topical minoxidil formulations are considered oily and in some cases there are reports of skin irritation. A major cause of the apparent inferior cosmetic properties and adverse effects of the current formulations on the skin is the rather high content of propylene glycol. Thus a more cosmetically acceptable minoxidil foam formulation, devoid of propylene glycol was developed. In order to test the availability of minoxidil to hair follicles hamster ears were treated with minoxidil 5% foam in comparison to the current minoxidil 5% solution (Rogaine?® Extra Strength), which served as a positive control. The foam was liquefied by gentle heating to 40C and then 20 ??l was withdrawn with a positive displacement syringe and spread on the ventral ear surfaces of a hamster, continuously and lightly anesthetized by controlled inhalation of isoflurane. After 1 to 2 hours, the animal was sacrificed and the ears removed and carefully dissected to isolate the sebaceous gland minoxidil content as an aqueous solution. Each sample was analyzed by HPLC
with electrochemical detection against minoxidil as an external standard. After one hour of minoxidil treatment of the hamster ears the foam showed a sebaceous gland uptake of 5.9% of the total minoxidil, while the positive control showed an uptake of 2.0% of the total minoxidil. After 2 hours of treatment the uptake from the foam was 6.5% in one series of experiments and 4.1% in another series of experiments, while the uptake from the positive control was 1.2% only. Thus the delivered dose of minoxidil from the foam to the hamster ear sebaceous glands after one hour treatment was about three times higher than for the minoxidil 5% solution. After two hours of treatment the minoxidil delivery from the foam formulation increased to 3.4 to 5.4 higher than for the minoxidil 5% solution. It is concluded that the new minoxidil 5% foam formulation is delivering minoxidil more effectively to the sebaceous gland of the hamster ear than does the current minoxidil 5% solution.
 

Einstein

Established Member
Ben said:
Hang on. So we agree that minoxidil is dose dependant, but you're also saying the maximum minoxidil %age you can get is 7.5%? If for example 3ml of the 5% liquid were used for one application, that adds up to 15% of minoxidil. However, you're saying the maximum we can get is 7.5%?

3ml of 5% minoxidil does not add up to 15% because 5% of minoxidil is 5% regardless of how much you use. That is like saying downing 3 shots of 20% of alcohol is 60%. You are simply using more of the same concentration!


I duno Ben, I think it you use one ml of 5% minoxidil solution 3x you'll be getting 15% total of minoxidil. Which is the same as using 1ml of Dr Lee's previous 15% minoxidil solution (xandrox?).
 

Einstein

Established Member
Btw Bryan, in the experiment above the foam was liquified prior to application. Does that enhance the absorption rate? If so, then it may not be a fair compairion between foam and solutiion? :dunno:
 

Bryan

Senior Member
Staff member
Einstein said:
What do you think of this:

THE JOURNAL OF INVESTIGATIVE DERMATOLOGY
ABSTRACTS A1
124:4 APRIL 2005
Uptake of minoxidil from a new foam formulation devoid of propylene glycol to hamster ear hair follicles
R Stehle,1 G Ewing,1 J Rundegren2 and B Kohut2 1 Pharmaceutical Sciences, Pfizer, Inc, Kalamazoo, MI and 2 Consumer Healthcare, Pfizer, Inc, Morris Plains, NJ

It's interesting, but I'd much prefer to see a study that examined the growth of human hair, not just the absorption of minoxidil in hamster sebaceous glands.
 
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