5-ar

[Robuk]

It is interesting with regard to HairLossTalk.com's facts on Saw palmetto which i totally agree with ,that although SP targets and inhibits the 5-AR enzyme which is found mainly in the prostate(type 1) and not that in the scalp, people with a 5-ar deficiency of this enzyme do not suffer from male pattern baldness.I agree SP doesn't work for hairloss but it makes you wonder if the exact method by which propecia works has more to it than simple 5-ar inhibition as the other 5-ar enzyme(type 2) is the one that is blocked
Rob

 

[hopewas]

sp may not work towards hairloss but i've gotten no side effects.. and it blocks a kind of dht.. i don't care if it's different kind..i'm waiting for my proscar.. i will take both. least that can happen is i block all dht in my body. taking saw palmetto will benefit me when i'm old

 

[HairlossTalk]

Its true that for many, it wont make much difference, because many people get no side effects from SP... but for a *LOT* of people, using SP and Propecia together is just way way way way overkill ... and does a real number on your hormonal system that is absolutely not safe nor necessary. Safe meaning .... not wise. Influencing the hormonal system double what is necessary is never smart, especially when half of it does nothing for hair loss.

We advise taking the minimum necessary, in any treatment regimen, which is 1mg daily finasteride found in Propecia, proscar, etc. If you feel you need to add something, Minoxidil is a great option.

This is directed to everyone, not you personally hopewas. Let us know if side fx appear when you put both together.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[YoungandBalding]

I was on SP and Propecia together for the first 5 months. I experienced a lot of hair loss while on both drugs. One few weeks after I dropped SP, I stopped shedding and my hair loss seems to be reversing.

This is either due to me dropping SP, or maybe propecia is starting to kick in regrowth. Either way, SP is not providing any benefit to the hair and just puts more hormones out of wack. Don't take them both at the same time.

If you take SP alone, its working for your prostate not your hair. Listen to HairLossTalk.com and other guys who have used SP for awhile. It does nothing and may even cause extra shedding.

 

[zak84]

The more alpha reductase you inhibit the more you reduce dht and hairloss, some theories say 5AR II does not affect your scalp, that only 5ARI, but that's still theory and many well known doctors don't buy that. to their conclusion, the more of AR you reduce the better. DHT does have an effect on your sexual functions, however, the enzyme is in a MUCH larger abudance than testosterone, so you will not get rid of all your DHT (which is why you have sexual side effects). SP, in my opinion, is not a very effective drug in doing anything, however, i'm not sure how HairLossTalk.com was meaning it was dangerous (whether it was in regards to hairloss or not) but any time you mix medications without doctor approval, you're taking a dangerous step

 

[HairlossTalk]

Dangerous moreso in the sense that its dangerous logic. You really dont want to be taking *MORE* hormonal modulators than necessary, for any reason whatsoever. Its just not smart. The endocrine system is a delicately balanced system. You need to have it working properly for a good 80 years. Why take more than necessary in the face of little or no evidence that what you're taking as "extra" will even help? Just doesn't make sense.

Some guys take arimidex (sp?) to inhibit excess estrogen caused by Propecia. I had that option when my estrogen went high, but staying true to my own words, I opted instead to lower Propecia dose. I wasn't going to take yet another hormonal modulator and start inhibiting estrogen on top of inhibiting DHT. When estrogen continued to be an issue, I completely dropped the treatment and opted for alternatives.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Stingray]

I might be mistaken, but doesn't SP just compete WITH DHT? I don't know if it's a 5AR inhibitor.

 

[HairlossTalk]

So far, the pharmacology of saw palmetto has been documented primarily through European studies. In the literature, saw palmetto lipid extract is described as an agent that may interfere with androgen action within the prostate. A hexane extract of the berries has been shown to take direct action on estrogen receptors. It has been shown to inhibit 5a-reductase.

 

[zak84]

yes, to some extent (which is not exactly proven) SP inhibits AR and aromatase(enzyme that converts testosterone to estrogen), but as I said before, i dont think it's really that effective anyway in inhibiting both of them, so in my opinion it's not a big deal either way

HairLossTalk.com, i think for the "norm", most men can handle the extra punch, some people have more delicate endocrine systems (like you), i dont think the hormonal affects would be noticable. but hey, your best bet is to speak with an endocrinologist

 

[Healthy Nick]

Saw palmetto can be very powerful. taking propecia and saw palmetto at the same time is a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[Bryan]

It is interesting with regard to HairLossTalk.com's facts on Saw palmetto which i totally agree with ,that although SP targets and inhibits the 5-AR enzyme which is found mainly in the prostate(type 1) and not that in the scalp, people with a 5-ar deficiency of this enzyme do not suffer from male pattern baldness.I agree SP doesn't work for hairloss but it makes you wonder if the exact method by which propecia works has more to it than simple 5-ar inhibition as the other 5-ar enzyme(type 2) is the one that is blocked

I have a problem with some of the things you say. Let's set the record straight:

1) The 5a-reductase in the prostate is mostly the type 2 form.

2) The 5a-reductase in hair follicles which is critical to hairloss is also the type 2 form, which is why Propecia (finasteride) works against male pattern baldness.

3) There are a number of studies (I think they're virtually all in vitro) which claim that SP not only blocks androgen receptors, but also inhibits BOTH forms of the 5a-reductase enzyme. However, as far as I know, taking SP orally doesn't have any effect on serum DHT, so it must not be a very potent inhibitor (or maybe there's some other reason why it doesn't work orally...poor absorption, or whatever).

Bryan

 

[Robuk]

I have a problem with some of the things you say. Let's set the record straight:

1) The 5a-reductase in the prostate is mostly the type 2 form.
You are of course correct-i apologise

2) The 5a-reductase in hair follicles which is critical to hairloss is also the type 2 form, which is why Propecia (finasteride) works against male pattern baldness.

Agreed only the article i read/misread states type 1 is found in the scalp
http://home.earthlink.net/~drfelman/notes.html

3) There are a number of studies (I think they're virtually all in vitro) which claim that SP not only blocks androgen receptors, but also inhibits BOTH forms of the 5a-reductase enzyme. However, as far as I know, taking SP orally doesn't have any effect on serum DHT, so it must not be a very potent inhibitor (or maybe there's some other reason why it doesn't work orally...poor absorption, or whatever).

Sorry for the hasty and misquoted post
Rob

 

[HairlossTalk]

Bryan, if it is not a potent serum DHT inhibitor, then why is it so helpful for the prostate and not shown to do jack squat for the follicle?

What is the assumption scientists make at this time as to why it can cause beneficial changes in the prostate but not seem to do much in the hair. There must be something unique to the prostate.

Would it be correct to say "Saw Palmetto inhibits both types, but it seems that it does not block 2 sufficiently to affect hair loss" ?

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Bryan]

la-dee-da

HairLossTalk.com, I don't know the answers to any of those questions, and I don't think anyone else does, either. This would be a good time to repeat what I posted on alt.baldspot a few years ago...it's the excerpt about saw palmetto from the article by Sawaya and Shapiro about unapproved male pattern baldness treatments. I put the especially relevant statement in bold:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is my fourth excerpt from "Alopecia: Unapproved Treatments
or Indications", by Drs. Marty Sawaya and Jerry Shapiro.

"Serenoa Repens / Saw Palmetto / Permixon"

"This is very commonly known by patients and clinicians as it is widely available in most nutritional food stores. Serenoa repens berries grow naturally, with the extract claiming to inhibit DHT production, mainly claimed for use in prostate problems. There have been no extensive studies, but because of the stated implications of affecting DHT, men are anxious to try this OTC remedy to see whether it promotes hair growth on the scalp.

"Studies that have been done have compared Permixon with finasteride in treatment of 1098 men with benign prostatic hypertrophy (BPH).Permixon improved symptoms of BPH but had no effect on androgen-dependent parameters such as DHT levels or 5a-R, indicating that its effects must be due to other yet undetermined pathways that do not involve DHT or 5a-R directly. Another study in 32 young men (aged 20 to 30 years) in a 1-week open trial looked at the effects of finasteride versus Permixon with regard to serum androgen levels; no effect on DHT levels were found in the Permixon-treated group, similar to the placebo group, whereas the finasteride group reduced DHT by 65%.

"Side effects noted in taking Serenoa repens in either commercial form of Permixon or Saw Palmetto have been gynecomastia in men, which indicates again that it does not act on DHT alone, but by other as yet unrevealed mechanisms. To be effective the extract of the berries must be taken, not the berries themselves. Another active ingredient, Pygeum africanum compound, is added to this extract and is thought to influence testosterone metabolism, although it is not clear how at this point. The product comes in capsule form with 2 to 6 capsules as the recommended daily dose in divided doses between meals. The cost can range from $12 to $40 per month."

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

boop-de-boop

2) The 5a-reductase in hair follicles which is critical to hairloss is also the type 2 form, which is why Propecia (finasteride) works against male pattern baldness.

Agreed only the article i read/misread states type 1 is found in the scalp
http://home.earthlink.net/~drfelman/notes.html

I'm always annoyed when I see an article say something about what's "in the scalp", because I think that's misleading. The term "scalp" obviously includes both hair follicles and the sebaceous glands associated with them, so IMHO it's not specific enough for our particular purpose to talk about what's "in the scalp". 5a-Reductase type 2 is predominant in hair follicles (according to certain recent studies), while 5a-reductase type 1 is known to be predominant in sebaceous glands. So BOTH forms of the enzyme are contained "in the scalp"!

Bryan

 

[powersam]

dsd

but does the fact that they are predominant in those different areas mean that without a doubt only one of them ( type 2 ) has a major effect on hairloss? could it not be that though there is very little type 1 in hair follicles , the effect that small amount has is quite enough to destroy the follicle?

on a related point , it states on minoxidil.com that in the bald areas of the scalp , dht levels are very high. would that be predominantly type 2 or 1 ?

 

[powersam]

***

sorry , just realised how simple answer to that second question was. if there isnt any hair there arent any follicles so it can only be type 1 sitting in those sebaceous glands. ( couldnt work the edit function on above post, odd browser)

moreover i have realised i have a seemingly congenital misunderstanding about dht and 5ar. there only one type of dht right? and two types of 5ar that can create it. sorry kids i catch on sooner or later

 

[Pete]

When estrogen continued to be an issue, I completely dropped the treatment and opted for alternatives.


What were these alternatives? and how long did you drop your 5ar inhibitor before returning to your 5ar inhibitor at the same dosage before excess estrogen?