Revivogen shampoo is good for cleaning the scalp from oil I use it every day for 6 months
Hair Loss & Alopecia Information, Support, and Treatments
Revivogen shampoo is good for cleaning the scalp from oil I use it every day for 6 months
I don't get it. You are on Fin and Nizoral but still wants to add yet another antiandrogen? Both Fin anz Nizoral is Anti-adrogens. What you need to add is a growth stimulator or a Anti-Inflammatory.
Minoxidil is the best growth stimulator on the market and Ahk Cu Copper Peptides or Hydrocortisole works as Anti-inflammatory.
As far as I know Nizoral is both an antiandrogen and anti-inflammatory. So is Revita that I use from time to time (contains copper peptides and keto among another things).
So yes, I'm considering adding another antiandrogen. But a topical antiandrogen that is (and not a shampoo). I want to make sure my hair loss is stabilized before I add a growth stimulator. So thats why I'm unsure if I should prioritize spiro or rogaine as a first addition to my regimen.
I use revivogen shampoo as my daily shampoo, it's cleaning my scalp very good from sebum, that between my nizoral daysOriginally Posted by Tomisthinning
If you want to give Spiro a shot I can ship you two tubs of 5% S5 cream for $50, should be enough to last 4 months if you apply it once per day (at night if you're taking fin in the mornings). Spiro is well-known to be a potent anti-androgen, but it's true that there is a lack of studies about its use topically for hair loss. I used it for the first year of my treatment and had great results (alongside fin, minox, and ketoconazole shampoo, like Nizoral). I'm only stopping spiro use temporarily to try AHK-Cu for the next five months, as I've outlined in my story...because applying three topicals, two of which are twice a day, is just too messy. The tubs are still sealed, have been kept refrigerated, and bear a May 2013 expiration. Shoot me a PM if you're interested, it would be a lower cost way to give it a shot for 4 months rather than paying $35 x 2 + $6 = $76 retail price. I've been posting my pics and results on this site for over a year so you should feel comfortable it is legit.
Regarding spiro in general: So far I think it's the next best addition to a regimen based on finasteride, minoxidil, and ketoconazole. I believe those three things are responsible for the vast majority of success stories' results, but if you're looking to take it a step further, which I was, spiro is the next best addition:
- it seems to be better tolerated by most people than even fin and minox (in terms of sides and irritation)
- it has been proven to have potent anti-androgenic activity in general
- it has been approved as safe for cosmetic use and is frequently applied topically for acne and hirsutism, providing more assurance of safety than for the research chemicals some people are using
- it is freely available for purchase online so you can ensure no interruption in your treatment. Many of the other possible additions are plagued by this: AHK-Cu, RU, CB, ASC, their ready supply is never ensured and you're always taking a gamble in their procurement, plus often require you to prepare your own formulation which introduces another layer of variability and complexity.
Once you've stabilized on the big 3 and are looking for additional improvement, there is something to be said for having a standardized and accessible treatment option, and that's where spiro shines relative to some of the alternative additions. My 14-month long story posted on this site is full of anecdotes about my spiro use along the way, most of it praiseworthy. In summary, I don't think it replaces finasteride as an anti-androgen (unless you can't take fin in which case it's your next best option), but I think it's a next logical supplement once you're comfortable with what fin/minox/keto can do for you. Let me know if you have any questions, I've written a number of lengthy posts for individuals on this site about spiro use, and all of this holds true whether or not you choose to take mine off my hands...a meager $50 pales in comparison to my desire to help another bro suffering hair loss. Good luck!
Sorry for what was probably a long answer to an easy question.
27 year old NW6 turned NW3v/4 in Scottsdale, AZ
My regimen: See button to the left
My story/pics: Here
*Send a PM if you want a direct reply
Thanks for the constructive post. I will keep your offer in mind. Only thing that makes me not order spiro right away is the fact that so few sites sell it. I mean, if the product is so great, why dont all hair loss shops sell it? Rogaine seem so much safer that way.
How much of a complementary effect to fin do you feel spiro has? Is it worth the hassle and expenses in terms of really having a discernible effect in maintaing your hair?
And what would you do in my situation, if you should add one topical to your regimen (Im allready on fin and niz) - would you go for spiro or rogaine? For me maintaining is most important. Some regrowth at my temples would be very welcoming, which is why im concidering starting rogaine, but most important is stopping the balding prossess.
And btw: Do the topical S5 spiro need to be kept refrigerated?
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Just to be sure, do you mean Spiro is the next best addition, like second best, or that it is the best addition after fin, minox, keto?
If its the first, what do you mean is best?
Last edited by Steven85; August 12th, 2012 at 05:35 AM. Reason: Question
If I had to chose between (Spiro or Fluridil) I would chose neither. Noone of them are worth the effort and/or money. Put the money on some more potent experimental treatments as RU58841, ASCJ-9. As TheLastHairBender said you can't put too many topicals on your head each day or they will get uneffective. Save some "space" for Minoxidil and/or OSH101 and/or Bitamoprost.
Hey Steven,
Minoxidil and spiro should not even be compared. Minoxidil regrows hair. Spiro will, at best, slow the balding process (although I personally believe anti-androgens like finasteride and spiro can actually improve hair by reversing miniaturization). But minoxidil is in a completely different league and far more beneficial to a regimen that already includes finasteride.
My comment about spiro being the next best addition was meant to imply as a fourth element. To me, finasteride is #1, then minoxidil (which in my experience has only worked when finasteride was included...I used minox on the crown when I was 24 and NW3 and got zero results after about 4 months so I gave up. Two years later, 26 and NW6, I started daily finasteride and tried minox again, showed improvement after 6 weeks and had nearly a full head of hair again after 3 months. That said - minoxidil demonstrated clinical effectiveness to the FDA in the absence of finasteride, and many people with sides from fin get some mileage from minoxidil alone, so everyone's experience can be different). With those two treatments in place you might as well use a ketoconazole shampoo like Nizoral or, in my case, prescription 2% keto, because there has been a ton of clinical and anecdotal evidence that keto does a number of good things: acts as an anti-inflammatory, anti-fungal, and even has anti-androgenic effects as tedlin pointed out, via selective competition for androgen receptors in the scalp (exactly what spiro does) and via inhibition of certain CYP enzymes that lead to testosterone formation in the first place. Although I don't think many people view ketoconazole as sufficiently anti-androgenic to replace finasteride altogether, it's a worthwhile addition to the regimen because it's typically delivered via shampoo and really no other shampoo has as much support for its use. That rounds out the big 3 treatments: a pill that acts as an anti-androgen, a topical that works as a growth promoter, and a shampoo that acts as an anti-inflammatory and anti-androgen.
My strong belief, although others may differ, is that the big 3 is the regimen you want to implement immediately to give yourself the best shot at success. Barring unbearable side effects, give the big 3 your full attention for the first six months, no need to start messing around with other stuff like Spiro, AHK, Retin-A, and certainly not the new rounds of research chemicals many people are experimenting with. You'll get there...just focus on implementing the big 3 flawlessly first. Down the road you may find you've plateaued in your progress or may even give up some ground - at that point you'll be thankful you have a next move and didn't waste all your bullets in the first few months. To address your initial concern specifically, for now, finasteride and ketoconazole should provide all the anti-androgenic activity you need to slow or halt the progression of MPB and allow a growth promoter (minoxidil) to do its job of improving your current condition. If you're already taking fin and using nizoral, prioritize minoxidil above all else. (To save you some serious coin though I would skip Rogaine/Regaine and go for generic minoxidil. I started with Rogaine, had good results, switched to generic, and still continued to improve. It's wide consensus that they are identical. Liquid vs foam is a personal preference though, and I'm not sure if there is a generic foam available if you find that's what you prefer. I purchase Kirkland liquid 5% minox on Amazon, at $50-$60 for a one-year supply although I use 2mL per application instead of 1mL so it only lasts me 6 months.)
Just FYI about spiro: I don't know why so few shops sell it but I have found that to be the case also. I've been getting mine from here on HLT for the past year reliably but I would also like to have alternative sources. Honestly you're going to find that this is the achilles heel of almost every ancillary treatment to the big 3. Even despite the apparently limited availability of spiro it's still the next easiest thing to procure regularly. The AHK-Cu I'm using had to be synthesized special order from a plant in China, with a $25,000 minimum order (hence like 60 of us had to go in on it). Other things like RU/RUM, 17ap, ASC, NEOSH may be available from these fly-by-night sites that are popping up lately but their long-term supply is even less assured and quality less reliable. I also urge you to stay away from those research chemicals for now - there's no need for you to go off the deep end yet and those things have not yet been fully vetted for safety. Spiro, AHK, and Retin-A have at least demonstrated clinical safety, if not effectiveness as a treatment for hair loss in particular.Only thing that makes me not order spiro right away is the fact that so few sites sell it. I mean, if the product is so great, why dont all hair loss shops sell it?
Do the topical S5 spiro need to be kept refrigerated?
Also - the S5 spiro jars read on the label 'Store at room temperature or keep refrigerated'. As with many things, degradation of active ingredient happens more rapidly at higher temperatures, therefore the fridge can preserve it for longer than if kept at room temp. How much? I don't know for spiro in particular; my assumption is that the expiration date refers to room temperature storage, so with a little extra shelf space on the fridge door I usually opt to be on the safe side. This is not the case for everything though - cold storage can cause some mixtures to separate or solutions to precipitate. Liquid minoxidil preparations take well to the fridge though due to the high alcohol content of their vehicle...and raw AHK-Cu virtually requires cold storage, as it breaks down rapidly above 8*C (46*F).
And to answer your other questions directly just for your future information:
Great questions. Spiro's complementarity to fin is like picking up change on your way to the bank. You're already going to get there - spiro is just nickel-and-dime-ing every last cent.How much of a complementary effect to fin do you feel spiro has? Is it worth the hassle and expenses in terms of really having a discernible effect in maintaing your hair?
Is it worth the hassle and expenses? Depends on your personal wealth. As I wrote in my story when I was experimenting with spiro last year, I don't find its application to be much of a hassle. Apply it about 10 minutes after minoxidil (this was the infamous Dr. Lee's directions for use of his spiro cream in tandem with minox), and since it's a more viscous cream than liquid or foam minoxidil I've found that S5 lends itself to my styling needs really well, so much so that I now completely skip using American Crew Forming Cream in the morning which has a very similar texture. The expense is severe though, so its eventual use alongside the big 3 will probably ultimately come down to cost. Using 1mL applications twice a day I was going through one tub per month at a cost of $32 when purchased in the 3 pack. By comparison my fin, minox, and keto combined cost $18/month. It is safe to say the return on investment in spiro pales in comparison to that for the big 3. But it is still a non-negative return, and likely slightly positive. So it really depends on the alternative consumption possibilities you'd be forgoing to purchase spiro. If you're a successful late-career professional with disposable income to burn then go for it, $32 is nothing for even a slight shot at improvement. But if the 85 in your username indicates that you, like me, were born in 1985, then put that $32 a month in your brokerage account instead - your follicles will already be basking from the finasteride-induced reduction in DHT. If you really feel like you have money to burn, consider putting the $32 in my brokerage account instead haha!
Sorry to answer at such length but since you're asking relatively green questions I wanted to take the time to give you the full story in my experience so far before someone else starts telling you to slather home-compounded RU Myristate all over your head without even giving fin+minox a shot first. To qualify my support for simply the big 3 here's a look at what it did for me (ok fine I was using spiro too but I don't give it much credit - I haven't lost a thing after discontinuing spiro use for several months now):
Initially:
Month 3:
Month 5:
and today, Month 14:
The big 3 can work.
Here's a link to my full story, I've been near-religious about keeping it updated and full of information, lots of spiro discussion too. I just helped kadir657 on the path to the big 3 with even more info that may be useful to you on page 13. Link: http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact...bender-s-story
Good luck Steven, we're here for you bro!
Sorry for what was probably a long answer to an easy question.
27 year old NW6 turned NW3v/4 in Scottsdale, AZ
My regimen: See button to the left
My story/pics: Here
*Send a PM if you want a direct reply
Please post references showing spiro topically having systemic effects and pm these to me to
Ahh tedlin beat me to it while I was typing that whole dissertation! It's not that this is bad advice; RU, 17ap, ASC, OSH, OC, and especially bimatoprost all show tremendous promise. Just give yourself time on the big 3 first, then come back and re-evaluate the state of the art with these treatments after a year. Hopefully at that time we'll know more about the optimal dosages, best delivery vehicles, necessary application frequencies, and have established some safety guidelines for their use. You might not even have to buy them out of someone's basement and compound them on your kitchen counter at that point! It's also possible that after a year on the big 3 you, like me, will have regrown so much damn hair that there isn't even a need for more inconvenient, costly, and potentially hazardous treatments. Instead you can save the add-ons for five years down the road when fin and minox start to lose their punch. ...It's like feeding a starving person at a five-start gourmet - the luxury would be wasted when plain rice would seem like a Michelin-star dinner. Enjoy your rice for a while, then when you're sick of that we'll take you out to a nice fancy dinner, and you'll enjoy it all over again.
As a final precautionary tale, look at that list of experimental stuff: RU58841, CB-03-01, ASCJ-9, OSH101, OC000459, bimatoprost (aka 7-[3,5-dihydroxy-2-(3-hydroxy-5-phenyl-pent-1-enyl)-cyclopentyl]-N-ethyl-hept-5-enamide). That's just six of the more prominent ones right now. It seems almost assured that ten years from now, out of all those experimental treatments, there's going to be one that we're like "dang, I can't believe people were putting that lymphoma bait directly on their skin for hair loss". ...So which one are you going to pick? Hope it doesn't turn out to be that one.
There are many more too: P45, KF19418, LGD1331, Thymosin B4, Naminidil, Diazoxide, Panacidil, Bicalutamide, steroid sulfatase inhibitors, Cromkalin, etc. Just because something inhibits 5a-reductase or activates potassium channel ions doesn't mean it's ok to start rubbing it on your head. Most of this isn't new either. Use Google Trends and see how long people have been talking about this stuff. OSH101? Yeah that was called PS1 back in 2003 and nothing has come of it since. RU? Not new. It has been the 'next big thing' since at least 2004. If safety and effectiveness were so assured with these novel treatments one surely would have been brought to this $10 billion market with how many commercial drugs under unique patent? zero?
There's a lot of lunacy in the hair loss community. UCLA released a study last year in which a new peptide regrew hair on five baldness-induced mice. There are already people lining up on the forums to have it synthesized and begin topical application. Nevermind that man's only experience with the stuff is on five mice, receiving it via injection, for a whopping five days and studied for all of four months. Topical Astressin-B is as likely to cause melanoma as it is to regrow hair. (The study itself shows a more immediate impact on melanocytes than on hair follicles, but you don't hear anybody talking about that). But inevitably someone is going to come along and tell you to try rubbing D-Phe-His-Leu-Leu-Arg-Glu-Val-Leu-Glu-Nle-Ala-Arg-Ala-Glu-Gln-Leu-Ala-Gln-cyclo(-Glu-Ala-His-Lys)-Asn-Arg-Lys-Leu-Nle-Glu-Ile-Ile-NH2 into your scalp twice a day.
RU is praised for a reported lack of systemic absorption, yet some people are reporting E.D., clear semen, and shrunken testes. Some ASC experimenters are reporting joint pain throughout their bodies. OSH's class of peptides has been linked to Parkinson's disease. Bimatoprost can turn your iris permanently brown if it gets in your eyes (oh and you have to buy it in raw bulk powder and mix the preparation yourself - hope you have a steady hand). Not trying to scare you, I curse propeciahelp.com for that, but the fact is that we don't have safety profiles for much of this stuff, let alone an understanding of proper methods of administration, dosages, etc. To recommend you start using anything but fin, minox, and keto is downright reckless. (Ok spiro, Retin-A, and the AHK volume in Tricomin get a pass because their safety has at least been established). You'll find a lot of desperate people willing to try anything in the hair loss community. You don't need to be one of them yet.
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OK I wanted this to be a separate post but since there is no intermediate reply the new system is adjoining it to the former.
I think you will have a hard time finding research support for that view. Early studies, as far back as 1988, suggested a lack of systemic absorption from topically applied spiro:
Rey FO, Valterio C, Locatelli L, Ramelet AA, Felber JP. "Lack of endocrine systemic side effects after topical application of spironolactone in man." J Endocrinol Invest. 1988 Apr;11(4):273-8.
Berardesca E, Gabba P, Ucci G, Borroni G, Rabbiosi G. "Topical spironolactone inhibits dihydrotestosterone receptors in human sebaceous glands: an autoradiographic study in subjects with acne vulgaris." Int J Tissue React. 1988;10(2):115-9.
Messina M, Manieri C, Musso MC, Pastorino R. "Oral and topical spironolactone therapies in skin androgenization." Panminerva Med. 1990 Apr-Jun;32(2):49-55.
These early results remain unchallenged in the literature as far as I'm aware.
Still, there has been a non-negligible number of reports of gynecomastia from topical spiro use, which seem to follow the discontinuation of oral anti-androgens for the same reason. It's possible that individuals exist in the hair loss community with sensitivities to estrogen that were not well-represented in the small N studies referenced. Let me attempt to reconcile these observations:
Noting that the first study used N=6 "healthy" males, a single application of spironolactone, and 72 hours of post-treatment observation, the hypothesis that certain estrogen-sensitive individuals may demonstrate non-severe systemic side effects after medium- or long-term use can not be immediately refuted. Put more convincingly: I conjecture that topically applied spironolactone may be systemically absorbed after long-term use in sufficient quantity so as to generate systemic side effects in particularly sensitive individuals while remaining at undetectable levels after 72 hours of a single application among healthy individuals. The experiment from the first referenced study is of insufficient duration and contains insufficient variation in its sample group to refute this conjecture. In fact both can be true: a single application of topical spiro may be systemically undetectable for 72 hours among healthy individuals and also exhibit long-term systemic absorption among sensitive individuals, even if only in small amounts (the question about amount is more a question of how much it takes to generate gynecomastia among individuals already demonstrated to be gynecomastia-prone when on 5a-reductase suppression, which could be argued to be very little).
The second study, which I believe provides the strongest basis for our beliefs in spiro's safety and effectiveness, is more convincing. Study participants apply 100mg of spironolactone to 25 square centimeters of their back, approximately the same area I typically cover when applying to my vertex and temples. A 5% strength cream yields 47.5mg/mL, so the experimental application volume was 2.1mL, roughly double what I attempt to apply at one time (although my metering out of spiro is anything but scientific, one of my main complaints about its application), and was maintained under occlusion, further amplifying typical absorption rates. This heavy application, combined with their long-term results from one month of twice daily application without occlusion, presents a stronger confirmation of spiro's strictly local influence (and its effectiveness for selective AR competition). Still, the tiny sample size of six can surely not be expected to span the population space.
The third paper is a survey and I have other things to do with my life right now.
If you're of the belief that spiro is not systemically absorbed. . . then I'm in agreement with you, at least up to the 98 or 99th percentile in terms of sensitivity. In that sense, the small-sample findings can still be logically reconciled with the observation that several among many, many individuals, particularly those that have previously demonstrated sensitivity to DHT inhibition, may exhibit side effects consistent with systemic absorption. I am personally comfortable with the general belief in topical spiro's safety (and efficacy for that matter).
Sorry for what was probably a long answer to an easy question.
27 year old NW6 turned NW3v/4 in Scottsdale, AZ
My regimen: See button to the left
My story/pics: Here
*Send a PM if you want a direct reply
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