Hair Loss Treatments
Hair Loss & Alopecia Information, Support, and Treatments
Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 58
  1. #1
    Senior Member TheLastHairbender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Age
    29
    Posts
    170
    Inflammation:
    Keto 2% Shampoo, 2-3x/week

    DHT:
    Finasteride 1.25mg/day
    *ON HOLD: Spironolactone 5% 1mL 2x/day

    Growth:
    Minoxidil 5% 2mL 2x/day
    *ON HOLD: Retin-A .05% ~250mg 1x/day

    Optimal AHK-Cu Proportioning: Math Inside.

    So I know there has been a good deal of talk about using AHK-Cu lately, and a number of people seem to be happily beta testing various combinations of the pure stuff from last autumn. I'm one of those - sitting on 28g right now but have not yet taken the initiative to work out the recipe for optimal application.

    The best treatment of the topic I've seen to date are: mix a few grams into a bottle of Tricomin or ethanol/PG/H20. I'm a little hesitant to start experimenting based on such imprecise chemistry. I wanted to take a look at the original study and determine exactly how many grams need to be mixed into an amount of the vehicle appropriate for daily application. Most advice on the topic seems to center around mixing a 2.5% - 5% w/v solution of AHK-Cu, but without any mention of the volume you should be applying. I think the right approach is to determine how many moles of AHK-Cu you want to deliver and from there determine the amount (in weight) of AHK-Cu required to provide those moles, from which you can solve for the strength of solution you'd need for a given volume of solution you plan to apply.



    Looking at the Korean study, they treated cells with solutions of varying concentrations, from 10^-12 M to 10^-7 M. They found positive results for concentrations from 10^-12 M to 10^-9 M, and negative results for concentrations of 10^-8 M and 10^-7 M (not sure how tenuous the differences between those amounts are...factors of ten for each increment to the exponent, right? So those are pretty discrete intervals if I understand correctly). The best results were obtained for a concentration of 10^-9 M.

    I plan to apply 2 mL of solution daily and want to determine the number of grams of a compound I need to add to achieve the desired quantity in moles. The molecular weight of the compound appears to be 416.94u.

    I thought I just needed to multiply the number of moles desired, 1.0 x 10^-9, by the molar mass, 416.94 g/mol, to determine the mass, in grams, required to deliver said moles. This works out to a tiny amount... 4.41694 x 10^-7 (.00000041694) grams per day. This seems way too small. Maybe I actually want to deliver more moles than that...? The study was on units of 30 follicular dermal papilla cells...so maybe I need to multiply the number of moles they delivered to their sample by the number of samples I'd expect to have on my scalp…about ~30,000 samples? I'm out of my league here and want to make sure I do this properly if I do it at all...unfortunately the lack of precedent in this area and the one study available (in which the treatment process doesn't seem to be well described) doesn't give me much confidence that I'm doing this right. There's actually a good chance I'll end up saying this isn't a good idea, but I wanted to give it a go to see if what I'm after can be scientifically determined with relative ease.

    People who have attacked this less scientifically report adding approximately 2g to 60 mL (57g) of solution, which yields a 3.5% w/v concentration, and if 2 mL are applied daily yields a mass of active ingredient of .067 grams applied daily. Way higher than the 4.1694 x 10^-7 grams per day I solved for based on the number of moles I wanted to deliver. Which is the right way to think about this? I think the problem is that I don't exactly know how much I need to deliver...I would think the study should reveal that information, in g/kg or some equivalent that might be useful. Here is a link to to the study in question, maybe that quantity jumps out at someone more than it does to me:*http://www.dermoday.com/dosyalar/1277308389.pdf

    If anyone knows their stoichiometry please advise. If you're just going to say make a 2.5% w/v solution and not tell me how much volume that assumes you're applying then I'm going to know you don't know what you're talking about, as 1 mL of a 2.5% solution is a lot different than 4 mL of 2.5% solution. I'd really prefer to hear from someone who understands the molarity calculations, if such a person exists on HLT. I've asked a few other people who might be in the know from a chemistry perspective; whether they're interested in staking my health on their back-of-the envelope calculations I'm not sure yet, but I'll post back whatever I hear. I appreciate anyone's input in the meantime.
    Sorry for what was probably a long answer to an easy question.

    27 year old NW6 turned NW3v/4 in Scottsdale, AZ
    My regimen: See button to the left
    My story/pics: Here
    *Send a PM if you want a direct reply

  2. #2
    Senior Member Jacob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    3,467

    Re: Optimal AHK-Cu Proportioning: Math Inside.

    I still don't get why they(Procyte) didn't go with that % if it worked so well. Even if it's the cost..they could have had a second separate product that many would have been willing to pay for.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Bryan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Houston, TX USA
    Posts
    8,671

    Re: Optimal AHK-Cu Proportioning: Math Inside.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastHairbender
    The best treatment of the topic I've seen to date are: mix a few grams into a bottle of Tricomin or ethanol/PG/H20. I'm a little hesitant to start experimenting based on such imprecise chemistry. I wanted to take a look at the original study and determine exactly how many grams need to be mixed into an amount of the vehicle appropriate for daily application. Most advice on the topic seems to center around mixing a 2.5% - 5% w/v solution of AHK-Cu, but without any mention of the volume you should be applying. I think the right approach is to determine how many moles of AHK-Cu you want to deliver and from there determine the amount (in weight) of AHK-Cu required to provide those moles, from which you can solve for the strength of solution you'd need for a given volume of solution you plan to apply.
    Forget about the "moles" you want to deliver, just worry about the total weight in grams of the copper peptide that you want to apply. That will give you a general idea of how much of a given solution you need to apply.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastHairbender
    Looking at the Korean study, they treated cells with solutions of varying concentrations, from 10^-12 M to 10^-7 M...
    What "Korean study" are you talking about??
    1) No, damnit, finasteride for hairloss was NOT an "accidental discovery".
    2) No, you do NOT have to use minoxidil and Retin-A at the same time.
    3) No, washing your skin does NOT make it produce more sebum.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    322

    Re: Optimal AHK-Cu Proportioning: Math Inside.

    The effect of tripeptide-Cooper complex on human hair-growth in vitro

    http://www.dermoday.com/dosyalar/1277308389.pdf

    Did you read the post?

  5. #5
    Senior Member Bryan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Houston, TX USA
    Posts
    8,671

    Re: Optimal AHK-Cu Proportioning: Math Inside.

    No, I've never seen or heard of that study before.
    1) No, damnit, finasteride for hairloss was NOT an "accidental discovery".
    2) No, you do NOT have to use minoxidil and Retin-A at the same time.
    3) No, washing your skin does NOT make it produce more sebum.

  6. #6
    Senior Member TheLastHairbender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Age
    29
    Posts
    170
    Inflammation:
    Keto 2% Shampoo, 2-3x/week

    DHT:
    Finasteride 1.25mg/day
    *ON HOLD: Spironolactone 5% 1mL 2x/day

    Growth:
    Minoxidil 5% 2mL 2x/day
    *ON HOLD: Retin-A .05% ~250mg 1x/day

    Re: Optimal AHK-Cu Proportioning: Math Inside.

    The Korean study I referred to was the one from Seoul National University's Dermatology department, linked to in the original post:

    http://www.dermoday.com/dosyalar/1277308389.pdf


    I understand your saying to forget the quantity in moles and consider only the quantity in grams. Since one is just a linear transformation of the other - a multiplication or division by the substance's molar mass - the two measures are equivalent. (I.E. to deliver ten times more moles you need to deliver ten times more grams, for example). So I agree, knowing the quantity to deliver in grams is sufficient.

    I started with the number of moles, though, because that was the only measured treatment quantity provided by existing research. I've never seen anything more than an anecdote that suggests the appropriate mass of AHK-Cu to deliver in grams...does anyone have information about this?
    Sorry for what was probably a long answer to an easy question.

    27 year old NW6 turned NW3v/4 in Scottsdale, AZ
    My regimen: See button to the left
    My story/pics: Here
    *Send a PM if you want a direct reply

  7. #7
    Senior Member Bryan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Houston, TX USA
    Posts
    8,671

    Re: Optimal AHK-Cu Proportioning: Math Inside.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastHairbender
    I understand your saying to forget the quantity in moles and consider only the quantity in grams. Since one is just a linear transformation of the other - a multiplication or division by the substance's molar mass - the two measures are equivalent. (I.E. to deliver ten times more moles you need to deliver ten times more grams, for example). So I agree, knowing the quantity to deliver in grams is sufficient.

    I started with the number of moles, though, because that was the only measured treatment quantity provided by existing research. I've never seen anything more than an anecdote that suggests the appropriate mass of AHK-Cu to deliver in grams...does anyone have information about this?
    Rather than just use that Korean study, I'd suggest also using the Trachy et al studies which I've posted several times on hairloss sites. They aren't as highly technical as the Korean study, but they do give some details of a larger number of copper peptides than just the one used in Tricomin. Furthermore, these studies used more than just one kind of animal with which to experiment, including humans. The human trial used what they call "PC1031", not the "PC1234" used in Tricomin. It was applied in both 2% and 10% solutions of the peptide in propylene glycol, alcohol, hydroxypropylmethylcellulose, water, and nonoxynol 9. Application of 0.25 mL was made morning and evening by each subject.

    PC1234 and PC1031 were also applied topically in a separate study, but only in mice. The PC1234 (which was more effective than the PC1031) was applied in doses of 0.25%, 0.67%, and 1.25%, while the PC1031 was applied in doses of 1.0%, 2.5%, 5.0%. The PC1234 definitely had better results, even at those lower doses.

    For more details about all three of these studies, obtain them from a medical library, and read them in their entirety (I've given the full citations in previous posts).
    1) No, damnit, finasteride for hairloss was NOT an "accidental discovery".
    2) No, you do NOT have to use minoxidil and Retin-A at the same time.
    3) No, washing your skin does NOT make it produce more sebum.

  8. #8
    Senior Member TheLastHairbender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Age
    29
    Posts
    170
    Inflammation:
    Keto 2% Shampoo, 2-3x/week

    DHT:
    Finasteride 1.25mg/day
    *ON HOLD: Spironolactone 5% 1mL 2x/day

    Growth:
    Minoxidil 5% 2mL 2x/day
    *ON HOLD: Retin-A .05% ~250mg 1x/day

    Re: Optimal AHK-Cu Proportioning: Math Inside.

    Ok, thanks for the references.

    In the human study, they applied .25 mL (just a couple drops really) of solution, which would be about .237 grams of solution, so the 2% strength would contain .0047g (4.7mg) of AHK-Cu per application and the 10% would contain .0237g (23.7mg) of AHK-Cu per application. That sounds in line with what people have been suggesting, and sounds like a reasonable scaling up of the amounts used in the mouse studies in the Trachy et al patents: .36mg to .55mg of copper-peptide per .1mL injection.

    At those amounts, twice daily applications (.25mL each) at 2% would require only .28 grams of AHK-Cu per month, while two daily applications at 10% would need 1.4 grams of AHK-Cu per month, dissolved in 15mL of solution. Sounds reasonable.


    If I were to go on that knowledge, and believing that 1 mL (~.95g) of solution per application would probably be ideal for coverage of my particular balding pattern, to deliver the maximum treatment group's 23.7mg per application I would wind up with a 2.5% strength solution ( .0237g / .95 g ) of which I apply 1 mL twice daily. So for a monthly batch I would mix 1.42g of AHK-Cu into 60 mL of solution. That's exactly what I wanted to know. I'll be using 23.7mg per application, which is 47.4mg/day.

    It might be easier to administer double the dose and apply it once a day, but since 47.4mg per application is outside the known treatment range for a single dose, I'd rather not be a guinea pig for the effects of that quantity of AHK-Cu at one time. Instead I'll bear the inconvenience for safety's sake and use 1 mL at 2.5% strength twice daily.

    I've heard about possible interference with minoxidil cited as a reason for not simply mixing the appropriate quantity of AHK-Cu into a bottle of liquid minox, so I plan to still apply liquid minox first thing in the morning, followed in 15-20 mins by 1 mL of 5% spironolactone cream, then apply 1 mL of 2.5% AHK-Cu six hours later - after the minox has reached full absorption at the ~4 hour mark, with some extra time allotted in between for any possible delayed absorption from the presence of the spiro cream. Then at night, I'll apply the minoxidil at T-7 hours before bed, followed by spiro, then another 1 mL of AHK-Cu six hours later, at T-1 hour before bed so it also has some time to dry. It puts a bit more strain on the schedule, but planning ahead like this for regularity and predictability makes that a feasible proposition.

    Anything I'm missing here (besides the risk of the mid-day AHK-Cu application turning my scalp blue/green/yellow)?
    Sorry for what was probably a long answer to an easy question.

    27 year old NW6 turned NW3v/4 in Scottsdale, AZ
    My regimen: See button to the left
    My story/pics: Here
    *Send a PM if you want a direct reply

  9. #9

    Re: Optimal AHK-Cu Proportioning: Math Inside.

    I was thinking about ordering some AHK, but I dont know what happened to fin fight er???

  10. #10
    Senior Member monty1978's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    UK
    Age
    36
    Posts
    2,946

    Re: Optimal AHK-Cu Proportioning: Math Inside.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastHairbender

    Anything I'm missing here (besides the risk of the mid-day AHK-Cu application turning my scalp blue/green/yellow)?
    I mixed it with minox once and it went green. I still used the whole lot. Even applying green liquid to my scalp I found that you could rub it till it went away. Mixing it with scalpecin it went blue and never left a residual blue hue one iota.

    Thanks for you efforts on this. You have saved me some time! Was thinking along exactly the same lines
    It's the bolt, it's the buzz, it's the sheer f*ck offness of it all

Similar Threads

  1. Optimal time between day off from daily dose?
    By treadstone in forum Antiandrogens - Propecia, Dutasteride, etc.
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: August 24th, 2008, 05:32 PM
  2. tricomin usage? once or twice daily for optimal use
    By whitemogs in forum Men's General Hair Loss Discussions
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: February 15th, 2008, 09:34 PM
  3. Hair Math
    By Betrayedbyme in forum Men's General Hair Loss Discussions
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: January 8th, 2007, 01:42 AM
  4. What the F@*K is wrong with this math?!?
    By elguapo in forum Men's General Hair Loss Discussions
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: February 23rd, 2004, 08:41 PM
  5. Experts: Which T Gel is optimal?
    By Vanity in forum Men's General Hair Loss Discussions
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: February 12th, 2004, 02:25 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •