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  1. #1
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    Soy Isoflavones and Green tea TOGETHER severely reduce DHT

    http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/2/516




    Here is the chart:
    http://jn.nutrition.org/content/vol133/ ... 69002.jpeg


    If you look at serum DHT (picograms per liter), when Soy and Green tea were both given to the mice (test groups of four mice), the levels of DHT fell at least 80% in comparison to the control (ab) group. Black tea reduced the serum DHT by 72% in the mice.


    However, I dont know the exact distribution of type one and type two alpha five reductase for mice. Perhaps type one is the dominant form in mice? If so, this might not be as much help for us as one would hope.


    If you look at the total testosterone levels............black tea raised the levels by 34% (good), but the soy/green tea cut them in half in the mice. This would be a "rough" side effect if it translated to men. Side effects would be ......................pretty marked.



    Prostate tumor weight and serum PSA levels were lowered dramatically with both soy/green tea combinations and especially soy/black tea combinations, as well as black tea by itself . http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/2/516/F1





    ANYBODY GOT ANY IDEA OF WHAT THE ALPHA REDUCTASE DISTRIBUTION IS IN MICE? IS TYPE ONE PREDOMINANT IN THESE CREATURES?

  2. #2

    Re: Soy Isoflavones and Green tea TOGETHER severely reduce DHT

    That's interesting; I'm assuming that the soy isoflavones, black tea, green tea are given orally and not topically (haha I'm imagining someone dumping critters into a tub of green tea bath)

    Sorry I'm not experienced with reading these charts; what do the a, and ab mean over the bars?

    So if I took soy isoflavone and GTE and drink black tea... I would get massive sides, possibly? Pity they didn't have a group that took all three; considering GT raised serum testosterone but in conjunction with soy reduced it by 50% while soy+BT did nothing... I'd be interested to know what happens if the mice took all three together.

    Hm. I was thinking before that I'm gonna go buy some soy isoflavone pills and some GTE; plus I love black tea. Maybe if i took all three for awhile I would reap some benefits...

    As a side note I'm pretty sure mice have 5AR-1, since I just ran a quicksearch on it and there were several studies involving 5AR-1; but a search for 5AR-2 didn't turn up much. So I'm assuming (for now) that 5AR-1 is the predominant form in mice. So going on this, if someone took soy+GTE+BT as well as fin I'm thinking it'll be similar to taking dut...

  3. #3

    Re: Soy Isoflavones and Green tea TOGETHER severely reduce DHT

    Hi as propecia isnt an option for me ive been looking it to the option of soy and green tea and found the following, which claims no side effects??

    http://www.hairloss-research.org/Propec ... tives.html

    and

    http://www.hairloss-research.org/soyiso ... umdht.html

  4. #4
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    Re: Soy Isoflavones and Green tea TOGETHER severely reduce DHT

    Id be wary, very wary of MPB-research.org


    They have a tendency to not list links to studies that back their claims.



    Their business model is this: Tell you this or that herb is good for baldness, and then tell you they have a buyer's club or some sort of buying arrangement that will get you to buy that herb there at some discount.


    In mice, taking both green tea and soy lowered DHT AND TESTOSTERONE drammatically. If those results transferred to men, and the type of DHT inhibited was type-2 alpha five reductase DHT, then it would certainly be helpful for baldness.



    However, Green tea ALONE led to a 164% INCREASE in DHT levels in mice. That doesn't sound so appealing does it. Maybe its because a percentage of the receptors were inhibited with green tea usage, thus less dht could bind, making it flow around in serum. Green tea given to mice increase hair growth in them in 33% of subjects in one study I read on pub med. Its complicated how these things might work, and sometimes work ---together--- to produce an effect. Green tea and soy TOGETHER certainly did do a number on mouse DHT levels though.


    Black tea lowered serum DHT in mice by 72%, but I dont know the distribution of mouse-alpha five reductase. It could be that type 1 alpha five reductase is much more prevalent in these animals..................and that black tea inhibits that time of alpha five reductase very well, but not inhibit the type 2 variety of the enzyme that we need.




    I wish I knew. I really wouldn't want to DECREASE my T-levels though. That would negatively effect a guy's quality of life.




    The tests with the mice (four mice per group-----given tea to drink, green tea to drink, green tea/soy in their drink and chow, given black tea/soy in their drink and chow) were INTERNAL applications. They werent "put on" the little creatures backs or anything.

  5. #5
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    Re: Soy Isoflavones and Green tea TOGETHER severely reduce DHT

    There's some research to suggest that soy has an estrogenic effect. Could that have any connection to why soy would reduce DHT?

  6. #6
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    Re: Soy Isoflavones and Green tea TOGETHER severely reduce DHT

    1: J Nutr. 2005 Mar;135(3):584-91. Links
    Soy protein isolates of varying isoflavone content exert minor effects on serum reproductive hormones in healthy young men.Dillingham BL, McVeigh BL, Lampe JW, Duncan AM.
    Department of Human Biology and Nutritional Sciences, University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario N1G 2W1, Canada.

    Inverse associations between soy and prostate cancer and the contribution of hormones to prostate cancer prompted the current study to determine whether soy protein could alter serum hormones in men. Thirty-five men consumed milk protein isolate (MPI), low-isoflavone soy protein isolate (SPI) (low-iso SPI; 1.64 +/- 0.19 mg isoflavones/d), and high-iso SPI (61.7 +/- 7.35 mg isoflavones/d) for 57 days each in a randomized crossover design. Twenty-four-hour urine samples indicated that urinary isoflavones were significantly increased by the high-iso SPI relative to the low-iso SPI and MPI. Serum collected on d 1, 29, and 57 of each treatment revealed that dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and DHT/testosterone were significantly decreased by the low-iso SPI [9.4% (P = 0.036) and 9.0% (P = 0.004), respectively] and the high-iso SPI [15% (P = 0.047) and 14% (P = 0.013), respectively], compared with the MPI at d 57. Other significant effects included a decrease in testosterone by the low-iso SPI relative to the MPI (P = 0.023) and high-iso SPI (P = 0.020) at d 29; an increase in dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate by the low-iso SPI relative to the MPI at d 29 (P = 0.001) and relative to the MPI (P = 0.0003) and high-iso SPI (P = 0.005) at d 57; and increases in estradiol and estrone by the low-iso SPI relative to the MPI at d 57 (P = 0.010 and P = 0.005, respectively). In conclusion, soy protein, regardless of isoflavone content, decreased DHT and DHT/testosterone with minor effects on other hormones, providing evidence for some effects of soy protein on hormones. The relevance of the magnitude of these effects to future prostate cancer risk requires further investigation.





    15% of so reductions in DHT at the high end with soy that has a healthy amount of isoflavones. It also reduced testosterone by about the same amount---14%. However finasteride lowers DHT by about 65% to 70% with a slight INCREASE in testosterone.



    I dont want to decrease my testosterone personally.

  7. #7

    Re: Soy Isoflavones and Green tea TOGETHER severely reduce DHT

    Quote Originally Posted by michael barry
    However, Green tea ALONE led to a 164% INCREASE in DHT levels in mice. That doesn't sound so appealing does it. Maybe its because a percentage of the receptors were inhibited with green tea usage, thus less dht could bind, making it flow around in serum. Green tea given to mice increase hair growth in them in 33% of subjects in one study I read on pub med. Its complicated how these things might work, and sometimes work ---together--- to produce an effect. Green tea and soy TOGETHER certainly did do a number on mouse DHT levels though.
    If I were to look at the results concerning only GT and Soy, it'd be this.

    GT alone raised T and DHT;
    Soy alone only lowered DHT;

    GT + soy lowered both T and DHT.

    Now in terms of how they work synergistically that is confusing; if GT alone raised T and soy doesn't affect T, I would think that T should only rise with GT+soy. But it isn't so; as well, the DHT lowered much more with soy+GT than would be expected. I don't know what to make of this.

    If we were simply looking to reduce serum levels of DHT, looks like black tea is a viable path to go; it reduced DHT as much as soy+GT while slightly increasing T, which sounds to me like inhibiting 5AR activity. But if we apply the MB's hypothesis that receptors were inhibited with GT, leading to available DHT in serum, then we might also hypothesize that BT is increasing the sensitivity of the receptors or acting as an catalyst. That's bad news. This is confusing.

    Are there studies that measure the rate/amount of DHT binding to receptors? With that information shouldn't we have a better understanding of the actual affect of these things on hair?

  8. #8
    Senior Member Petchsky's Avatar
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    Re: Soy Isoflavones and Green tea TOGETHER severely reduce DHT

    Not forgetting that this test is on mice though, not a human body...it could very well have a different effect. If it lowers testosterone then i'm definitely not interested, side effect city. I was under the impression that green tea is good for hairloss? but if lowers T, then not so.
    "Still worshipping God? Last I heard, he started worshipping me, hahaha" Lord Flashheart

  9. #9

    Re: Soy Isoflavones and Green tea TOGETHER severely reduce DHT

    Petch, if it lowers T, then it IS good for hairloss, no? It's just that the sides that come with it is probably bad... But what're sides from low testosterone? Low muscle mass?

    And I read on another thread that people were unwilling to take GTE internally for fear of raising their estrogen levels, leading to gyno risk... What the heck.

    Plus, people drink GT and BT and eat tofu all the time... Us Asians do it like daily. (well, not me. but I was thinking of starting to)

    Could be why there're so many Asian guys who are effeminate... (jokes)

    Edit: as a side note, why don't these studies also do hair density and diameter counts in conjunction with DHT and T levels? It would make it a whole lot easier to assess implications to hair growth... But then again, that might not be what the study is for. But still T__T think of us thinners.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Petchsky's Avatar
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    Re: Soy Isoflavones and Green tea TOGETHER severely reduce DHT

    The worry about lowering T is sexual side effects, especially if you are already taking proscar.

    I don't think estrogen can harm your hair, but it is not good for your health to have high estrogen for a prolonged period of time.

    I'm not taking this study to seriously though as it's on mice.
    "Still worshipping God? Last I heard, he started worshipping me, hahaha" Lord Flashheart

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