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  1. #1

    Does DIM really inhibit DHT? And is the good estrogen it...

    Hi, Does DIM really inhibit DHT? If so why do people take this instead of saw palmetto which isn't proven to inhibit blood serum level of DHT?
    Is the good estrogen it increases beneficial for hair loss? I take proscar 1.25mgbut I would love to add this more because it decreases the bad estrogen. I heard high estrogen level can cause hair loss. Is it the bad one only? Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    Senior Member SkylineGTR's Avatar
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    Re: Does DIM really inhibit DHT? And is the good estrogen it...

    as far as i heard DIM just helps metabolize estrogen. Does nothing in terms of DHT.
    Kind of a herbal alternative to taking clomid or tamaxofen for estrogen related side effects. (water retention / gyno)

  3. #3
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    Re: Does DIM really inhibit DHT? And is the good estrogen it...

    What it does is increase healthy metabolism of estrogens in the body, there are two ways things get done aerobic and anearobic, you are in an anearobic state when you pH and general oxygen levels are low. This is a result of getting old and being extremely unhealthy, so DIM increase the bodies ability to metabolism the estorgens in your body in an aerobic state.

    You end up with more good estrogens that actually act as anti-oxidants instead of oxidants which if you remember cause hair loss.

    DIM and I3C are still relatively new especially to the hair loss scene.

    Further more you can have the levels of these estrogens tested for if you wish.

    Estrogens can be good or bad just like androgens can be good or bad.

    The most information come from women that are using it, and the results have been amazing from what I have read.

    IMO this is the next leap in hair loss is increasing conversion of estrogen to as much good estrogens as possbile while keeping estrogen at a normal level ie has high before unwanted side effect which will be relative.

    Very simular to what Bryan has said but not as general as saying all estrogens are created equally as they are not

  4. #4
    Junior Member Namaste's Avatar
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    Re: Does DIM really inhibit DHT? And is the good estrogen it...

    Interesting. I just bought two bottles of Nature's Way DIM-plus. I bought it because I am taking Avodart (going on 4 months) and am a little worried that blocking the conversion of testosterone to DHT will result in more Testosterone being converted to Estrogen (i.e., I want to avoid gyno). Notably, I just had my total testosterone and estrogen levels tested. The testosterone was in the middle of the normal range. Surprisingly, my estrogen levels were below normal. I was expecting my testosterone and estrogen levels to be a little higher. I intend to get my DHT levels tested next week to make sure my Avodart pills are not fake (I don't think they are as I order them from RxUSA, which is a U.S. pharmacy, and I am paying approx $100 for 30 pills). Based on my tests, I am not sure it makes sense to start taking the DIM supplements. I suppose if it increases good estrogens and decreases bad estrogens (but doesn't decrease overall estrogen levels) it would still make sense to take them.

  5. #5
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    Re: Does DIM really inhibit DHT? And is the good estrogen it...

    Dim has the ingredient found in broccoli, brussels sprouts, cabbage, cauliflower and kale that does this. Why not just eat more of these veggies instead of a pill?

  6. #6

    Re: Does DIM really inhibit DHT? And is the good estrogen it...

    Plant derived 3,3'-diindolylmethane is a strong androgen antagonist in human prostate cancer cells
    Hien T. Le, Charlene M. Schaldach, Gary L. Firestone, and Leonard F. Bjeldanes
    Nutritional Sciences and Toxicology, University of California at Berkeley, Berkekey, CA 94720

    Corresponding Author: lfb@nature.berkeley.edu

    3,3-Diindolylmethane (DIM), is a major digestive product of indole-3-carbinol (I3C), a potential anticancer component of cruciferous vegetables. Our results indicate that DIM exhibits potent antiproliferative and antiandrogenic properties in androgen dependent human prostate cancer cells. DIM suppresses cell proliferation of LNCaP cells and inhibits dihydrotestosterone (DHT) stimulation of DNA synthesis. These activities were not produced in androgen independent PC-3 cells. Moreover, DIM inhibited endogenous PSA transcription and reduced intracellular and secreted PSA protein levels induced by DHT in LNCaP cells. Also, DIM inhibited, in a concentration dependent manner, the DHT-induced expression of a PSA promoter regulated reporter gene construct in transiently transfected LNCaP cells. Similar effects of DIM were observed in PC-3 cells only when these cells were co-transfected with a wild type androgen receptor expression plasmid. Using fluorescence imaging with GFP-AR and Western blot analysis, we demonstrated that DIM inhibited androgen-induced AR translocation into the nucleus. Results of receptor binding assays indicated further that DIM is a strong competitive inhibitor of DHT binding to the AR. Results of structural modeling studies showed that DIM is remarkably similar in conformational geometry and surface charge distribution to an established synthetic AR antagonist although the atomic compositions of the two substances are quite different. Taken together with our published reports of the estrogen agonist activities of DIM, the present results establish DIM as a unique bifunctional hormone disrupter. To our knowledge, DIM is the first example of a pure androgen receptor antagonist from plants.

    http://www.jbc.org/cgi/content/abstract/M300588200v1

    It does have antiandrogen effect.

  7. #7
    Junior Member Namaste's Avatar
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    Re: Does DIM really inhibit DHT? And is the good estrogen it...

    Artista,

    Based on the articles I have seen, you would have to eat an enormous amount of those vegetibles to accomplish the desired effect -- more than your digestive system could handle. As a side note, for a long time DIM extracts were poorly absorbed by the body. Supposedly, a guy named Dr. Zeligs developed a formula that had better bioavailability and he has patented the technology to numerous supplement makers, including Nature's Way.

    Loingmyhair,

    That is an interesting article. It seems to indicate that DIM competes with DHT for androgen receptors (i.e., it binds to receptors so DHT cannot). What is particularly interesting is that this mechanism is potentially a different way of reducing the effect of DHT than finasteride or dutasteride (both of which reduce the conversion of testosterone into DHT, not DHT's ability to bind to ARs).

  8. #8
    Senior Member Bryan's Avatar
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    Re: Does DIM really inhibit DHT? And is the good estrogen it...

    Quote Originally Posted by purecontrol
    You end up with more good estrogens that actually act as anti-oxidants instead of oxidants which if you remember cause hair loss.
    Can you cite a reference for the claim that some estrogens act as pro-oxidants?

    Quote Originally Posted by purecontrol
    Estrogens can be good or bad just like androgens can be good or bad.
    Are you claiming that some androgens are good for scalp hair? Got a reference for that one?

    Quote Originally Posted by purecontrol
    Very simular to what Bryan has said but not as general as saying all estrogens are created equally as they are not
    Obviously they vary in potency. Not sure about the other claims.
    1) No, damnit, finasteride for hairloss was NOT an "accidental discovery".
    2) No, you do NOT have to use minoxidil and Retin-A at the same time.
    3) No, washing your skin does NOT make it produce more sebum.

  9. #9
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    Re: Does DIM really inhibit DHT? And is the good estrogen it...

    Can you cite a reference for the claim that some estrogens act as pro-oxidants?
    That is why certain estrogens cause cancer, and others help prevent it


    Are you claiming that some androgens are good for scalp hair? Got a reference for that one?
    Never said that, however I will state that testosterone in general is a whole heck of a lot better for the human body man or woman than DHT, some androgen have a far far greater overal androgenic effect than others


    Obviously they vary in potency. Not sure about the other claims.
    Yes that is the point, more good estrogen less bad estrogen. Bad estrogens = cancer in both men and women cancer = all the foes that acompany hair loss TGF-beta ect Which has been demonstrated to have a direct correlation to hair loss.

    Cancer is caused by abnormal levels and abnormal duration to oxidative stress, ie cancer can not live in an oxgenated enviroment aerobic one. They thrive in an anerobic one, SOD for instance combates this oxidative stress as well as others and just so happens to regrow hair.

    We have seen DHT causing its havock due to? abnormal oxidative stress, thus causing a cascade effect ie TGF ect.

  10. #10
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    Re: Does DIM really inhibit DHT? And is the good estrogen it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Namaste
    Interesting. I just bought two bottles of Nature's Way DIM-plus. I bought it because I am taking Avodart (going on 4 months) and am a little worried that blocking the conversion of testosterone to DHT will result in more Testosterone being converted to Estrogen (i.e., I want to avoid gyno). Notably, I just had my total testosterone and estrogen levels tested. The testosterone was in the middle of the normal range. Surprisingly, my estrogen levels were below normal. I was expecting my testosterone and estrogen levels to be a little higher. I intend to get my DHT levels tested next week to make sure my Avodart pills are not fake (I don't think they are as I order them from RxUSA, which is a U.S. pharmacy, and I am paying approx $100 for 30 pills). Based on my tests, I am not sure it makes sense to start taking the DIM supplements. I suppose if it increases good estrogens and decreases bad estrogens (but doesn't decrease overall estrogen levels) it would still make sense to take them.
    Searching the web you will find that the problem here is not with high estrogen perse but too much bad estrogen but rather the form, as certain estrogen will have a much higher pronounced "estrogen" type effect ie gyno, weight gain, acne, ect. So the good estrogen would not have such high degree of negative affect given the same amount and as Bryan has show may actually benefit you far more than negatively effect you.

    It is simular to comparing DHT to Testosterone, if you just simply measured androgen levels you would not see the full picture. As you would much rather have all testosterone than all DHT.

    This is where DIM comes in, it may increase the amount of good estrogens, but not only that it makes sure that those bad estrogens stay around only for as long as they are supposed to and helps the body properly metabolise them ie urinating them out as it should be instead of them hanging around.

    It does this with DHT as well as testosterone, infact some studies shows that DIM actually decreases the amount of testosterone when the levels are of an abnormal level. It helps to even everything out.

    This makes it look even better for hair loss, as you end up with less estrogen side effects but more estrogen benefits, as well as less androgen related side effects.

    So perhaps this is something for us to start using, it has been around for some time and has worked wonders for many women old and young as well as many men suffering BHP disorders.

    I am not saying that DIM is some golden ticket but rather that this is an area that we need to pursue. Bryan posted the studies showing that estrogens can indeed be good for you and i have posted studies showing that they can be very bad for you. The goal is to get the right estrogens to gain the benefits and to avoid the unwanted side effects of the bad estrogens

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