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yassin
March 22nd, 2012, 08:59 AM
Washington: Researchers have discovered an abnormal amount of a protein called Prostaglandin D2 in the bald scalp of men with male pattern baldness.

The discovery by researchers at Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania may lead directly to new treatments for the most common cause of hair loss in men.

In both human and animal models, researchers found that a prostaglandin known as PGD2 and its derivative, 15-dPGJ2, inhibit hair growth.

The PGD2-related inhibition occurred through a receptor called GPR44, which is a promising therapeutic target for androgenetic alopecia in both men and women with hair loss and thinning.

Male pattern baldness strikes 8 of 10 men under 70 years old, and causes hair follicles to shrink and produce microscopic hairs, which grow for a shorter duration of time than normal follicles.

Researchers took an unbiased approach when scanning for potential biological causes of baldness, looking in scalp tissue from balding and non-bald spots from men with male pattern baldness and then corroborating findings in mouse models.

They found that levels of PGD2 were elevated in bald scalp tissue at levels 3 times greater than what was found in comparative haired scalp of men with androgenetic alopecia.

When PGD2 was added to cultured hair follicles, PGD2-treated hair was significantly shortly, while PGD2``s derivative, 15-dPGJ2, completely inhibited hair growth.

“Although a different prostaglandin was known to increase hair growth, our findings were unexpected, as prostaglandins haven`t been thought about in relation to hair loss, yet it made sense that there was an inhibitor of hair growth, based on our earlier work looking at hair follicle stem cells,” said George Cotsarelis, MD, chair and professor of Dermatology, and senior author on the studies.

In a Penn study published last year, underlying hair follicle stem cells were found intact, suggesting that the scalp was lacking an activator or something was inhibiting hair follicle growth.

Prostaglandins are well characterized for their role in many bodily functions – controlling cell growth, constricting and dilating smooth muscle tissue – and a different prostaglandin (F2alpha) is known to increase hair growth.

Researchers found that as PGD2 inhibits hair growth, other prostaglandins work in opposition, enhancing and regulating the speed of hair growth.

While these studies looked at AGA in men, the researchers noted that prostaglandins may represent a common pathway shared by both men and women with AGA.

Future studies, potentially testing topical treatments that may target GPR44, can determine whether targeting prostaglandins will benefit woman with AGA as well.

The study has been published in Science Translational Medicine.

http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/4/126/126ra34

Shma
March 22nd, 2012, 09:12 AM
So you really think the cure is near?

yassin
March 22nd, 2012, 09:58 AM
So you really think the cure is near?

yes, It's a great discovery

TravisB
March 22nd, 2012, 10:02 AM
Even if it's near, I would still understand "near" as more or less 10 years unfortunately...

2020
March 22nd, 2012, 12:28 PM
Even if it's near, I would still understand "near" as more or less 10 years unfortunately...

that's not the point.... if this thing truly worked then I'm sure people will start making their own batches of this stuff. No need to wait for anyone to "release" anything.

yassin
March 22nd, 2012, 01:51 PM
yes, there's already about 10 PGD2 synthase inhibitors in the market used for different purposes , if any primary researches shows its effectiveness against androgenic alopecia, many people will be ready to use them (like nizorla which is also anti-inflammatory), I think these drugs will be much cheaper than finasteride or minoxidil because they will be mainly anti inflammatory drugs that are already used in other fields. they also must be safer because they don't work on any sex hormones.

abcdefg
March 22nd, 2012, 05:02 PM
There are tons of news articles yesterday/today about this so its a pretty big discovery. Its related to stem cells but time will tell how it actually does assuming a company actually turns it into an actual product.
Lets put it this way it could turn out to be huge or less then that either way its probably a lot better then our current crappy treatments.

yassin
March 22nd, 2012, 06:45 PM
today I spent most of the day searching about this to find a way to inhibit prostaglandin D2 synthase enzyme

1. aspirin >
aspirin is a prostaglandin inhibitor but I'm not sure if it inhibits prostaglandin D2, as it's a special prostaglandin , and not much info are known about it
people used aspirin for years and didn't note any effect on hair, maybe because people on aspirin don't experience any type of hair loss

But I don't think that aspirin has any effect on AA

2. Inorganic selenium compounds
SeCl4, NaSeCo3, selenium disulfide
I think that the first two have never tried for Androgenic Alopecia and they don't have any clinical usage in medicine , so I think that they will be tried in the next few years orally & topically. but they will have significant side effects if they are used orally because PG-D2 is an important factor on the brain

selenium disulfide is already used topically on the scalp as a powerful antidandruff shamoo (head & shoulders clinical strength)
selenium disulfide shampoos are used in two concentrations
1% over the counter (head & shoulders clinical strength and other shampoos)
2.5% available with prescribtion

3. organic sources of selenium
"egg" not the most sources but it's the best two take twice a day
1 egg is sufficient for your daily requirement of selenium
tuna fish is also very rich in selenium
you can also find other sources of organic selenium in this link
http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-000 ... 00000.html

4. mast cell stabilizers (e.g. chromoglicic acid)
as PG-D2 is only synthesized away from the brain by mast cells "only"
mast cell stabilizers are used in bronchial asthma as a nasal spray or an inhaler.

Cody333
March 22nd, 2012, 08:27 PM
today I spent most of the day searching about this to find a way to inhibit prostaglandin D2 synthase enzyme

1. aspirin >
aspirin is a prostaglandin inhibitor but I'm not sure if it inhibits prostaglandin D2, as it's a special prostaglandin , and not much info are known about it
people used aspirin for years and didn't note any effect on hair, maybe because people on aspirin don't experience any type of hair loss

But I don't think that aspirin has any effect on AA

2. Inorganic selenium compounds
SeCl4, NaSeCo3, selenium disulfide
I think that the first two have never tried for Androgenic Alopecia and they don't have any clinical usage in medicine , so I think that they will be tried in the next few years orally & topically. but they will have significant side effects if they are used orally because PG-D2 is an important factor on the brain

selenium disulfide is already used topically on the scalp as a powerful antidandruff shamoo (head & shoulders clinical strength)
selenium disulfide shampoos are used in two concentrations
1% over the counter (head & shoulders clinical strength and other shampoos)
2.5% available with prescribtion

3. organic sources of selenium
"egg" not the most sources but it's the best two take twice a day
1 egg is sufficient for your daily requirement of selenium
tuna fish is also very rich in selenium
you can also find other sources of organic selenium in this link
http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-000 ... 00000.html

4. mast cell stabilizers (e.g. chromoglicic acid)
as PG-D2 is only synthesized away from the brain by mast cells "only"
mast cell stabilizers are used in bronchial asthma as a nasal spray or an inhaler.

Someone on another forum posted this about this new research,


There are two types of PGD2 receptors, DP1 and DP2 (DP2 is also known as 'GPR44' and 'CRTH2'). Laropiprant (Merck's drug) selectively blocks the PD1 receptor - Cotsarelis showed that the PD2 receptor (and not PD1) is involved in hair growth downregulation. BTW, niacin produces flushing via the PD1 receptor - the PD2 receptor is not involved in the flushing at all.

and then this


Setipiprant by Actelion blocks the right PGD2 receptor implicated in MPB (PD2). Right now, setipiprant is in phase 2/3 testing.

Belmondo
March 23rd, 2012, 05:00 AM
Washington: Researchers have discovered an abnormal amount of a protein called Prostaglandin D2 in the bald scalp of men with male pattern baldness. [...]


This seems great but is there a causal relationship between the two (MPP - high levels of Prostaglandin D2)? Do we know for sure that it's the protein that's causing MPP?

Anarch
March 23rd, 2012, 12:49 PM
If there are already PG-D2 blockers on the market, someone needs to try some on their noggin. :dunno: And their might be generic formulas in India if we can't get a prescription for allergies.

Anarch
March 23rd, 2012, 01:49 PM
Vitamin E Succinate

Aspirin

I could only find Succinate in dry form, while Aspirin can be had in liquid but sold in bulk to livestock farmers.

Kirby
March 23rd, 2012, 02:50 PM
Quick, somebody please be a guinea pig for the benefit of all of us!

TravisB
March 23rd, 2012, 03:38 PM
You see how this new finding emerged out of nowhere? I wonder if it's really a breaktrough, someone must try this.

However, it shows that the cure for baldness might come any time. All it needs is possibly one discovery like this.

kc444
March 23rd, 2012, 05:45 PM
Washington: Researchers have discovered an abnormal amount of a protein called Prostaglandin D2 in the bald scalp of men with male pattern baldness. [...]


This seems great but is there a causal relationship between the two (MPP - high levels of Prostaglandin D2)? Do we know for sure that it's the protein that's causing MPP?

Part of the research was an experiment with genetically altered rats/mice which appeared to demonstrate a casual relationship between the PGD2 pathway and hair loss.

abcdefg
March 23rd, 2012, 09:20 PM
I am really curious to see some results or studies on what happens if you block these. Does it regrow hair or just prevent hair from miniaturizing? What if combined with androgen inhibitors maybe we can finally prevent hair loss for your whole life time that would be a huge accomplishment just in itself being able to prevent MPB.

calamus
March 24th, 2012, 04:41 AM
any have the full text of this paper

Weezert
March 25th, 2012, 05:15 AM
I work in science research in an area not unrelated to this. I think of all the breakthroughs we've had so far, this one is the most promising. For the first time we've found a direct cause and effect for pattern baldness, and that is something we've never had before. Let me illustrate it for you in a way that hopefully makes you realise how significant this is:

Dark Ages:
Masturbation >>>>>???????? >>>>>>> Hairloss (we had no idea)

(1990s)
DHT blocking slowly regrows hair>>>>>>>Blocking DHT>>>>>>>>>Regrowth/treatment for some but not all >>>>>> DHT touted as the main culprit>>>>> Clearly not a direct effect.

Now:
Raised PGD2 synthase>>>>increased activation of GPR44 receptor>>>>Hairloss, which was producible in animal models


Once drug companies jump on this receptor and start producing potent antagonists, I think we are facing a side-effect free way to block baldness from ever developing. Whether it will regrow for those who have lost, there is no way to tell so far. However, I would point out that finasteride regrows for some, so I don't see how blocking the direct receptor responsible for MPB would not produce regrowth. Time will tell I suppose.

I would warn you guys that taking any drugs that haven't been approved yet is high risk and, in my opinion, totally deplorable. I do not condone the taking of any drug that is not legally licensed at all. If you find yourself unable to resist taking the risk, then at least don't look for drugs that block PGD2-synthase. Chances are they will harm other portions of your body that rely on PGD2, not only that but they will likely be ineffective in the treatment of MPB compared to GPR44 antagonists.

For the good of your health, have patience guys.

2020
March 25th, 2012, 10:38 AM
For the good of your health, have patience guys.

patience for what? As far as I know, no one is working on making such drug and there is no guarantee that it will work better than fin...

abcdefg
March 25th, 2012, 10:51 AM
I think someone will turn this into a treatment after they test it more there is not much reason to think otherwise given the money it could potentially make. They would not announce some new treatment so soon after this discovery. Also there are other similar drugs out there already so that should lessen the time it takes to get to an actual product by some amount.

squeegee
March 25th, 2012, 01:04 PM
That theory is been around for years.. There are patents out there since forever ..just google it.. Guys! don't get too excited LOL.. Anyways.. Prostaglandins and DHT are also related to ED, benign prostatic hypertrophy and cancer. I think is just marketing hype to raise money..

Gizmo
March 25th, 2012, 06:33 PM
this thing is all over the news these days.
are there or are there not companies utilizing this discovery ?

Kirby
March 26th, 2012, 08:31 AM
That theory is been around for years.. There are patents out there since forever ..just google it.. Guys! don't get too excited LOL.. Anyways.. Prostaglandins and DHT are also related to ED, benign prostatic hypertrophy and cancer. I think is just marketing hype to raise money..
Oh bollocks, so no new "super-treatment" will ever result from this?

abcdefg
March 26th, 2012, 05:06 PM
The more I read about this the more I doubt this means much of anything. How can they even write an article on something that has zero actual results no pictures or anything why bother bringing it up? I saw articles saying this is cure for MPB to be on sale in 5 years I mean these articles are flat out lies.
Also Merck has a drug right now that blocks this in trials and they said they saw nothing so I guess all these stories about this being a cure must have missed this fact.

Merck isn’t studying the anti-flushing drug in hair loss, said Ian McConnell, a Merck spokesman, in a telephone interview. “We haven’t seen any signals” in patient trials that the therapy might reduce baldness, he said.

Belmondo
March 27th, 2012, 07:26 AM
Part of the research was an experiment with genetically altered rats/mice which appeared to demonstrate a casual relationship between the PGD2 pathway and hair loss.

Interesting, thanks for you reply.

I believe you but this seems too good to be true. I always thought that MPB was the result of a combination of factors and not just one isolated cause.

So if the protein is causing this, then what role does DHT really play? And why does finasteride work (for most cases, at least)?

Jacob
March 27th, 2012, 10:18 AM
You do notice..the newer things that they're working on...don't seem to be focusing on "anti-dht".... :)

Weezert
March 27th, 2012, 05:50 PM
Well the androgen receptor is a ligand activated transcription factor (basically has the ability to turn on genes when activated). I imagine, for whatever reason, in these cells, bald men have an increased number of response sites to the DHT-AR complex (T-AR complexes don't necessarily bind to the same places as DHT-AR complexes, although I don't have proof to back that claim up, it's important to be open minded though), and the increased activation of these sites causes more of PGD2-synthase to be transcripted-translated and hence local production of PGD2 is increased (by threefold according to George). It is what's known as a paracrine (locally acting) hormone, and so it only very slowly effects the tissues in close proximity to it's release.

The best thing about this study is that they showed increased PGD2 directly caused hairloss in the mice. This direct link is vital. The receptor was foundt o be GPR44, I have every faith that it will produce a treatment better than the current DHT inhibitors. I would honestly wait and see what the pharma companies produce. There are plenty of them out there other than the 'Big Pharma' often quoted in the media and on this site, and I'm sure once the link is concrete they'll jump on it. It has the chance to be a real moneyspinner for them.

This is the most significant breakthrough made in regards to hairloss research. Anyone who doesn't see that is either a) uninformed in this area or b) in denial,

squeegee
March 28th, 2012, 12:19 AM
Prostaglandins E1 and E2 increased the sensitivity of glycolysis to insulin in the isolated stripped soleus muscle of the rat, but prostaglandin F2 alpha had no effect. Indomethacin, which inhibits prostaglandin formation, markedly decreased the sensitivity of glycolysis to insulin. These findings suggest that prostaglandins of the E series increase the sensitivity of muscle glycolysis to insulin in vivo.

Gizmo
March 28th, 2012, 01:53 PM
Prostaglandins E1 and E2 increased the sensitivity of glycolysis to insulin in the isolated stripped soleus muscle of the rat, but prostaglandin F2 alpha had no effect. Indomethacin, which inhibits prostaglandin formation, markedly decreased the sensitivity of glycolysis to insulin. These findings suggest that prostaglandins of the E series increase the sensitivity of muscle glycolysis to insulin in vivo.

can I have that in english please?

odalbak
March 28th, 2012, 02:49 PM
Do we know for sure that it's the protein that's causing MPP?

The fact that increasing artificially PGD2 increases baldness suggests it could be. Now I imagine increasing DHT levels dramatically would probably increase baldness as well…

squeegee
March 28th, 2012, 04:31 PM
Elevated insulin---increased delta desaturase enzymes---increased conversion of omega 6 fatty acids to arachidonic acid--increased prostaglandin 2's--increased production of cytokines--increased inflammatory
response throughout the entire body.

harold
March 29th, 2012, 04:55 AM
Hey all,

Havent posted in a long time as i generally havent focussed much on hairloss and related issues in a few years. Was very interested to do a pubmed search to see if anything new had happened research wise and to see that this result had finally been published and has caused a big ruckus. To give some perspective this was something some people were talking about here over 4 years ago thanks to the miracle of online patents:

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=43715&p=412209&hilit=+pgd2#p412209 (http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=43715&p=412209&hilit=+pgd2#p412209)

Its funny because around the same time Cotsarelis filed the patent on that whole wnt wounding thing that became the basis of Follica and that kind of swept this PGD2 thing aside. The PGD2 synthase elevation always seemed very dramatic and very well demonstrated in the info we had from the patent but as time went by and the results were never published it sort of became a secondary thing - it was only one set of unpublished findings from one group after all, who seemed set on pursuing a treatment based on other findings commercially. Still there were other hints that it might be really important such as hte effect of PGF2 analogs like latanorast on hair growth and the fact that mice which overexpressed COX-2 in skin developed hair miniaturization (an important point because hair miniaturization, not just hair loss, is a defining characteristic of MPB) and enlarged sebaceous glands.
http://www.pnas.org/content/98/13/7629.figures-only

Anyway some thoughts:
Basically:
Arachidonic Acid -- COX1/COX2--> Prostaglandin H2 --PG D Synthase --> PGD2 <binds to> PGD2 receptor
In this case the PGD synthase is apparently the PTGDS "lipocalin type" that is commonly found in the brain and not the PGDS type associated with mast cells. IN MPB it seems that something downstream of androgens upregulates this PTGDS and thats why we are getting so much PGD2 unlike in the mice where it was COX2 being upregulated and a whole host of prostaglandins being overexpressed. As mentioned the PGD2 receptor involved here is CTRH2.

So it seems we have 3 targets:
1) COX1/COX2 - lower all prostaglandin production
2) PTGDS - lower PGD2 production
3) CTRH2 - stop PGD2 from binding.

In terms of 2) and 3) I'm not sure that there is a lot we can do by ourselves. Indomethicain is a weak antagonist of CTRH2. Selenium Chloride (SeCl4) and sodium selenite (Na2SeO3) are inhibitors of PTGDS but from what i gather you wouldnt want to mess with selenium chloride at least. OTOH of course the commonly available NSAIDs like aspirin/ibuprofen/paracetemol are COX1/2 inhibitors. Still i havent come up with much research in terms of how to effectively apply them topically and how effective they might be.Theres also a bit about flavonoids like luteolin and quercetin interfering with PGD2 production but its not clear on the pathways involved (it may be more relevant to the PGDS pathway) but some of it at least appears to be COX related.

odalbak
March 29th, 2012, 09:37 AM
Thanks Harold for the links.

Could applying green tea extracts topically have any effect on hair loss?

mlb
March 29th, 2012, 12:08 PM
Harold, what about Ramatroban.

Cody333
March 29th, 2012, 04:43 PM
Harold, what about Ramatroban.

Or Setipiprant, from the company Actelion. It's in phase II/III at the moment I believe, and it blocks the right PGD2 receptor implicated in MPB.

abcdefg
March 29th, 2012, 06:16 PM
Here is what I dont understand it says in the same article that Merck while testing a drug that does this sees no results for hair. So I mean if a drug they have in advanced testing doing this already shows no hair results what do we make of that?

-------------------------
Merck isn’t studying the anti-flushing drug in hair loss, said Ian McConnell, a Merck spokesman, in a telephone interview. “We haven’t seen any signals” in patient trials that the therapy might reduce baldness, he said.

odalbak
March 29th, 2012, 06:42 PM
Video interview of Cotzarelis.
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-03-i ... -loss.html (http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-03-inhibitor-male-pattern-baldness-hair-loss.html)

"Researchers found that as PGD2 inhibits hair growth, other prostaglandins work in opposition, enhancing and regulating the speed of hair growth."

That means our topical solution should target PGD2 only. What does that?

Cody333
March 29th, 2012, 06:48 PM
Here is what I dont understand it says in the same article that Merck while testing a drug that does this sees no results for hair. So I mean if a drug they have in advanced testing doing this already shows no hair results what do we make of that?

-------------------------
Merck isn’t studying the anti-flushing drug in hair loss, said Ian McConnell, a Merck spokesman, in a telephone interview. “We haven’t seen any signals” in patient trials that the therapy might reduce baldness, he said.


Laropiprant (Merck's drug) selectively blocks the PD1 receptor - , that isn't the receptor that Cotsarelis was talking about. So Merck's drug won't be of any use to us. I posted a quote on page one of this thread from another forum explaining that.

Cody333
March 29th, 2012, 06:50 PM
Video interview of Cotzarelis.
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-03-i ... -loss.html (http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-03-inhibitor-male-pattern-baldness-hair-loss.html)

"Researchers found that as PGD2 inhibits hair growth, other prostaglandins work in opposition, enhancing and regulating the speed of hair growth."

That means our topical solution should target PGD2 only. What does that?


As I said a few posts up, a drug called Setipiprant does that, it's in phase II/III at the moment.

odalbak
March 29th, 2012, 07:54 PM
Sodium cromoglycate (SCG) seems to inhibit prostaglandin D2 (PGD2).

http://www.uptodate.com/contents/mast-cells-surface-receptors-and-signal-transduction/abstract/52

One product where SCG is found is in these eye drops against hayfever:

http://www.pharmplexdirect.com/galpharm-allergy-drops-10ml-sodium-cromoglicate-p-36455.html?medicines=213&language=en&currency=GBP

waynakyo
March 29th, 2012, 08:11 PM
Havent posted in a long time as i generally havent focussed much on hairloss and related issues in a few years. Was very interested to do a pubmed search to see if anything new had happened research wise and to see that this result had finally been published and has caused a big ruckus.

welcome back.. hope you'll keep visiting.. your opinions are much appreciated here. No one mentionned the fact that this was discussed 4 years ago. It seems to me this makes it less of an astonishing finding as it is currently portrayed..I would guess ... why they have waited for so long...

Anyway -- if you come out with any brilliant ideas of products that we can use that target one of the 3 channels, grateful if you can share.

mlouis
March 29th, 2012, 08:32 PM
Here is what I dont understand it says in the same article that Merck while testing a drug that does this sees no results for hair. So I mean if a drug they have in advanced testing doing this already shows no hair results what do we make of that?

-------------------------
Merck isn’t studying the anti-flushing drug in hair loss, said Ian McConnell, a Merck spokesman, in a telephone interview. “We haven’t seen any signals” in patient trials that the therapy might reduce baldness, he said.


Laropiprant (Merck's drug) selectively blocks the PD1 receptor - , that isn't the receptor that Cotsarelis was talking about. So Merck's drug won't be of any use to us. I posted a quote on page one of this thread from another forum explaining that.

It is also possible that an oral medicine does not provide an adequate dose to the follicle.

Ramatroban is a weaker CRTH2 inhibitor than Setipiprant but it is an inhibitor nonetheless. It has been prescribed for allergies in Japan for years. If it worked for hair orally i'm sure that would have been discovered by now. But topically perhaps?

odalbak
March 29th, 2012, 08:43 PM
Personnally I'm only interested in topical solutions. Long term use of drugs with systemic effects is a no no with me. But others will differ.

waynakyo
March 29th, 2012, 09:22 PM
link to paper:

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/dermatol ... _Garza.pdf (http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/dermatology/news/2012_STM_Garza.pdf)

the biologists here need to help us figure out what is really a good inhibitor of PGD2... I heard Quercetin is one.

waynakyo
March 29th, 2012, 09:23 PM
http://www.mastcellmaster.com/documents ... h-IJIP.pdf (http://www.mastcellmaster.com/documents/Skin-Diseases/Niacin-flush-IJIP.pdf)

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pd ... 0-4-47.pdf (http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1756-0500-4-47.pdf)

odalbak
March 30th, 2012, 06:56 AM
Thanks waynakyo.

SCG is PGD2 inhibitor.

"Sodium cromoglicate (SCG), a chromone developed in the 1960’s as an inhaled powder for the treatment of asthma has subsequently been used for the treatment of allergic rhinitis, allergic conjunctivitis, food allergy and systemic mastocytosis. A number of studies have investigated the effect of topically applied SCG in atopic dermatitis. Although variable effects have been reported, probably because of the hydrophilic nature of SCG that limits its penetration in intact skin, several have found a significant reduction of itch."

"SCG was introduced into the skin of healthy volunteers both by iontophoresis and by topical application using a new 4% cutaneous emulsion (Altoderm™). The skin was then challenged with intradermal histamine. (…) Topically applied SCG, administered in a new cutaneous emulsion base, significantly reduced the itch and flare caused by intradermal histamine. The effect was greatest in atopic subjects and increased with the concentration of SCG in the emulsion. (…) There were no effects on wheal or blood flux."

"SCG has no anti-histaminic activity"

TravisB
March 30th, 2012, 09:07 AM
Don't you think that if it really helped with baldness thay would notice it by now?

odalbak
March 30th, 2012, 09:16 AM
You mean SCG? It's never been used on balding scalp over a period of several months as far as I know.

People have been using aspirin since 1853… We should know all its effects by now, right? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-11930988

squeegee
March 30th, 2012, 10:57 AM
Hey all,

Havent posted in a long time as i generally havent focussed much on hairloss and related issues in a few years. Was very interested to do a pubmed search to see if anything new had happened research wise and to see that this result had finally been published and has caused a big ruckus. To give some perspective this was something some people were talking about here over 4 years ago thanks to the miracle of online patents:

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=43715&p=412209&hilit=+pgd2#p412209 (http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=43715&p=412209&hilit=+pgd2#p412209)

Its funny because around the same time Cotsarelis filed the patent on that whole wnt wounding thing that became the basis of Follica and that kind of swept this PGD2 thing aside. The PGD2 synthase elevation always seemed very dramatic and very well demonstrated in the info we had from the patent but as time went by and the results were never published it sort of became a secondary thing - it was only one set of unpublished findings from one group after all, who seemed set on pursuing a treatment based on other findings commercially. Still there were other hints that it might be really important such as hte effect of PGF2 analogs like latanorast on hair growth and the fact that mice which overexpressed COX-2 in skin developed hair miniaturization (an important point because hair miniaturization, not just hair loss, is a defining characteristic of MPB) and enlarged sebaceous glands.
http://www.pnas.org/content/98/13/7629.figures-only

Anyway some thoughts:
Basically:
Arachidonic Acid -- COX1/COX2--> Prostaglandin H2 --PG D Synthase --> PGD2 <binds to> PGD2 receptor
In this case the PGD synthase is apparently the PTGDS "lipocalin type" that is commonly found in the brain and not the PGDS type associated with mast cells. IN MPB it seems that something downstream of androgens upregulates this PTGDS and thats why we are getting so much PGD2 unlike in the mice where it was COX2 being upregulated and a whole host of prostaglandins being overexpressed. As mentioned the PGD2 receptor involved here is CTRH2.

So it seems we have 3 targets:
1) COX1/COX2 - lower all prostaglandin production
2) PTGDS - lower PGD2 production
3) CTRH2 - stop PGD2 from binding.

In terms of 2) and 3) I'm not sure that there is a lot we can do by ourselves. Indomethicain is a weak antagonist of CTRH2. Selenium Chloride (SeCl4) and sodium selenite (Na2SeO3) are inhibitors of PTGDS but from what i gather you wouldnt want to mess with selenium chloride at least. OTOH of course the commonly available NSAIDs like aspirin/ibuprofen/paracetemol are COX1/2 inhibitors. Still i havent come up with much research in terms of how to effectively apply them topically and how effective they might be.Theres also a bit about flavonoids like luteolin and quercetin interfering with PGD2 production but its not clear on the pathways involved (it may be more relevant to the PGDS pathway) but some of it at least appears to be COX related.


Happy to see you back harold! Always enjoy reading your posts. :punk:

Cody333
March 30th, 2012, 02:27 PM
Here is what I dont understand it says in the same article that Merck while testing a drug that does this sees no results for hair. So I mean if a drug they have in advanced testing doing this already shows no hair results what do we make of that?

-------------------------
Merck isn’t studying the anti-flushing drug in hair loss, said Ian McConnell, a Merck spokesman, in a telephone interview. “We haven’t seen any signals” in patient trials that the therapy might reduce baldness, he said.


Laropiprant (Merck's drug) selectively blocks the PD1 receptor - , that isn't the receptor that Cotsarelis was talking about. So Merck's drug won't be of any use to us. I posted a quote on page one of this thread from another forum explaining that.

It is also possible that an oral medicine does not provide an adequate dose to the follicle.

Ramatroban is a weaker CRTH2 inhibitor than Setipiprant but it is an inhibitor nonetheless. It has been prescribed for allergies in Japan for years. If it worked for hair orally i'm sure that would have been discovered by now. But topically perhaps?


You wouldn't use it orally though, it would be reformulated into a topical, that's what Cotsarelis was talking about when he mentioned drugs being in trials that could target the receptor.

waynakyo
March 30th, 2012, 07:10 PM
so any ideas of how to get hold of SCG or Ramatroban ? or you guys waiting to hear the results of the trials in 5 years time ?

if it wasn't for experimental drugs I would have shaved my head be now.

odalbak
March 30th, 2012, 09:10 PM
I realized I had at home a small bottle of eye drops against eye inflammation from hayfever, it contains 2% of SCG. 2 grams overall. It may not be enough for this special use but I always could try apply this on my scalp and see. The normal daily posology is 1 drop in each eye up to 6 times a day for 3 months. If 12 drops every day in the eyes is okay, it should be safe on the scalp I guess. There are no side effects observed when applied in the eyes.

bornthisway
March 31st, 2012, 02:19 AM
Someone else tried topical quercetin in 2004 and claimed improvement. Quoted below from another forum.

"Tried absolutely everything to halt hairloss with more or less luck, I reached the NW2 Mark due probably to the use of Innovate.

I would say that minox and fin were my best friend for the last 4 years, hairs are cycling very rapidely so I shed a lot (100+ hairs a day) but recover rapidely.

I droped innovate after eight months of use (a hair destroyer !!).

My current regimen is :

External : classic OzBrew (2x a day) (7 months + on it) + T-Flavanone (7 months + on it)

Internal : Hair vitamins + Fin 2mg + 2g Quercetin + 2g MSM

And I'm pleased with the results since I removed innovate !!

I'm interessed by the AR blocker : Fluridil that I'll add next week to my regimen at night to help totally recover my temples.

So there is an important information for you guys : I tried topical quercetin during 2 months, and I was pleased with results (Mix my own DMSO + Distilled Water + 2g Quercetin topical) but I had to stop.

It seemed to help a lot with the shed and thickening. For me the effects of a topicals quercetin are similars to topical spiro or fluridil in a muchhhhhh cheaper way (60 ml of this mix costs nothing).

The only problem (great one) : IT STAINS A LOT !!! An horrible yellow that goes everywhere, turns to red when in contact with sponges, a total nightmare, to make it go away from your skin is a real problem too, my bathroom is totally yellow after 2 months of use.

So topical quercetin is good for your hair ? : YES, I'm pretty sure of that (for me internal quercetin has no effect at all, I don't know why i'm always using it ...), one month after adding topical quercetin shed decreased a lot !!!!

If you have a wife would you be able to keep her if you use it ? : NO, mine asked me to choose between the yellow stuff and her lol

Hope this help.

Gilles "

I forgot if we can link to other hair loss sites but should be easy to find.

odalbak
March 31st, 2012, 08:21 AM
The question is does Quercetin inhibit PGD2 only?

"Researchers found that as PGD2 inhibits hair growth, other prostaglandins work in opposition, enhancing and regulating the speed of hair growth."

waynakyo
April 1st, 2012, 09:57 PM
Bornthisway, thanks for the interesting story.. I am going to try this but have to find a drug that I can get and that is known to inhibit PGD2 well... these stuff they put in their eyes 4 times a day i am sure I can do the same on my scalp.


also found this:
http://circres.ahajournals.org/content/82/2/204.full

waynakyo
April 1st, 2012, 10:06 PM
http://www.arraybiopharma.com/_document ... ent342.pdf (http://www.arraybiopharma.com/_documents/Publication/PubAttachment342.pdf)

bornthisway
April 2nd, 2012, 01:21 AM
The question is does Quercetin inhibit PGD2 only?

"Researchers found that as PGD2 inhibits hair growth, other prostaglandins work in opposition, enhancing and regulating the speed of hair growth."

Well, if someone had an overly positive effect on his hair I would think it's less likely that it would adversely affect hair growth. It may not have an effect (if any) on other prostaglandins to the extent that it would be detrimental. Luteolin should have a positive effect as well but I didn't find any topical experiences for hair loss. They both would likely have yellow staining which is something I could live with if effective.

There's other options people are talking about as well (which I haven't read up on), I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Quercetin is at least super cheap, safe, and it's been tried out for hair loss. Also I'm not sure if the other options have been experimented with as of yet, and there is a chance they might negatively impact growth promoting prostaglandins. We should know more in the coming months as it appears people are going to be trying different topicals to target PGD2.

To be clear, since hair loss is multifaceted I wouldn't put all my stock in just one potential mechanism.

odalbak
April 2nd, 2012, 09:36 AM
since hair loss is multifaceted I wouldn't put all my stock in just one potential mechanism.

Sure. But how will we know whether this or that PDG2 inhibitor has any actual effect?

I've personally started to use only SCG eyedrops twice daily, on my scalp obviously. No nizoral, no minox,… nothing except these eyedrops. This is my official debut in self inflicted unpaid guinea pig career. I'll do this untill the end of july (4 full months) and will report here. Don't expect pictures as I don't have a camera.

odalbak
April 2nd, 2012, 09:49 AM
Waynakyo, thanks for the link.

I'm not sure of what to do with the information this study displays though.

"Recent studies have demonstrated that Nitric Oxyde production is enhanced in inflammatory vascular lesions".

"We demonstrated that PGD2 suppresses Nitric Oxyde generation in vascular smooth muscle cells".

paul27
April 2nd, 2012, 06:43 PM
I saw those eye drops at the pharmacy, Allergen makes them, 10ml for $18.00. How much of it are you applying?

odalbak
April 2nd, 2012, 07:07 PM
My bottle contains 10ml and cost 6 euros. It's a 2% SCG solution. I've started putting 15 drops every 12 hours, spreading the drops all over my scalp, with the bottom of a little glass so there's no absorption by my fingers. My hair cut is super short, about 5-6 mm long so doing this is super easy. I wouldn't do this experiment otherwise. Too much pita. Of course I have absolutely no clue whether this dosage of 30 eyedrops is enough for hair loss…

The more I enquire about this whole thing and the more I think the solution is probably more complex than simply inhibiting PGD2.

"During normal follicle cycling in mice, Ptgds and PGD2 levels increase immediately preceding the regression phase, suggesting an inhibitory effect on hair growth."
So by inhibiting PGD2, are we going to stop that natural regression phase or just delay it and increase the length of the growth phase?

Cotzarelis suggested also that if PGE2 and PGF2 promote hair growth and PGD2 inhibits it, they may both balance each other and there's maybe a natural balance system for normal hair development. Applying a treatment that would block the activity of PGD2 may cause imbalance and generate other effects on hair, not necessarily desirable.

waynakyo
April 3rd, 2012, 11:17 PM
Paul27/Odalbak: are you in the US ?
I need a product with SCG in the US, but it seems these drops are only sold in the uK ? or otherwise need a prescription.

I want to join you guys in Guinea Pigging... and I have a good reasons for it.
I am optimistic, although I rarely am in general.

paul27
April 4th, 2012, 04:48 AM
I live in Canada, the drops are made by Allergan and are called Optrex Allergy Eye Drops.

UKguy84
April 4th, 2012, 07:45 AM
i googled Setipiprant few days ago and noticed lots of news storys saying they've pulled the plug on the drug.

wats the deal with this? and is it a step back? as i've seen alot of people mentioning this drug as a possible treatment.

strange that this happens literally a week after the pgd2 info was released.

odalbak
April 4th, 2012, 03:06 PM
Apparently Setipiprant is not effective enough in tests.

From my experience, one single drop of 2% scg is effective at least for eye inflammation. And it's already in shops. I can't imagine there will be something in the form of a pill like Setipiprant was supposed to be. Cotzarelis doesn't even mention that idea as far as I remember.

waynakyo
April 4th, 2012, 07:45 PM
another inhibitor:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indometacin

waynakyo
April 4th, 2012, 07:50 PM
from hairsite:


According to Pettipher and Hansel "Antagonists of the Prostaglandin D2 Receptor CRTH2" Drug News and Perspectives Vol 21 July/August 2008, the synthetic antagonists of the CRTH2/GPR44 receptor are :

Ramatroban and analogues
4-Aminotetrahydroquinoline derivatives K-117 and K-604
Indole acetic acids

Have also read that Quercetin reduces PGD2 release.


WE NEED EXPERTS HERE, BRYAN, HAROLD, ... ?

odalbak
April 4th, 2012, 09:21 PM
I can't remember Bryan posting about PGD2 or prostaglandins in general. Harold is the man seemingly.

Weezert
April 6th, 2012, 02:59 AM
I certainly wouldn't put your faith in quercetin or those plant flavinoids. I've done some work on them and they appear to bind to all sorts of receptors, but whether it's a specific or non-specific effect is unclear. If you search the literature, there are tons of things they apparently have an effect on. Magic Bullet? Not likely...

The best compounds are probably the ones that have undergone optimization such as those in clinical trials right now. I guess the best bet is to wait and see what biotech produces.

I hope they don't go down the route of inhibiting PGD2-synthase, as that just seems to be a great way of creating a drug that'll probably have sh***y off target effects.

Trying a herbal remedy like quercetin and then getting upset when it doesn't work is a fool's game.

odalbak
April 6th, 2012, 06:08 AM
Weezert, are you thinking of quercetin as pill? I don't think a systemic drug would be safe. PGD2 is useful for the brain and other things. I wouldn't mess with that. As I said, Cotzarelis only mentioned the perspective of a topical solution to reduce PGD2.

odalbak
April 7th, 2012, 06:36 AM
Just curious, am I the only one on scg eyedrops at the moment?

paul27
April 7th, 2012, 08:22 AM
I've seen them on the pharmacy shelf but haven't decided whether to purchsed them yet.

tomcatt
April 8th, 2012, 03:31 AM
-> beta carotene inhibits cox-2 w/o inhibiting PGE2 (such as quercetin) :punk:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17012770

-> hydrocortisone inhibits PGD2 (17% http://www.jimmunol.org/content/147/2/667.short)
w/o inhihiting PGE2 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6960374)



:firing: HAIRLOSS :bigun2:

2020
April 8th, 2012, 10:23 AM
-> beta carotene inhibits cox-2 w/o inhibiting PGE2 (such as quercetin) :punk:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17012770

-> hydrocortisone inhibits PGD2 (17% http://www.jimmunol.org/content/147/2/667.short)
w/o inhihiting PGE2 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6960374)



:firing: HAIRLOSS :bigun2:


wait that second ncbi.nlm.nih.gov link doesn't say anything about hydrocortisone having any effect on PGD2..

sapinho
April 8th, 2012, 12:14 PM
People have tried all sorts of anti-inflammatories over the years, surely some of them inhibiting PGE2, but I don't remember anyone suddenly losing their Minox-dependent hairs. If this observation is correct, this would mean that either Minox does more than just increase PGE2, or when used in combination it still increases PGE2 levels.

What about Selenium?

armandein
April 9th, 2012, 03:54 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16297176
Sebaceous glands and the prostaglandin pathway--key stones of an exciting mosaic.

Complicated issue, more than when they fluctuate during hair cycle. OTOH human scalp hairs are asinchronous, then it is very difficult use systemic or topical remedies.

Prevention better than cure.....

squeegee
April 9th, 2012, 05:51 PM
Prostaglandin is just one part of the problem..MPB is still driven by androgen.

2020
April 9th, 2012, 06:24 PM
Prostaglandin is just one part of the problem..MPB is still driven by androgen.

so how did you cure your MPB? :whistle:

parsi
April 10th, 2012, 02:08 PM
Anybody knows if using Orudis(Ketoprofen) will have the same effect? (inhibiting PGE2) ?
I usually use that on the skin for curing pain in the muscles.

2020
April 10th, 2012, 03:03 PM
Anybody knows if using Orudis(Ketoprofen) will have the same effect? (inhibiting PGE2) ?
I usually use that on the skin for curing pain in the muscles.

aren't you NW7 already? What's the point? Why are you even here?

parsi
April 10th, 2012, 03:44 PM
What's NW7?

2020
April 10th, 2012, 03:55 PM
What's NW7?

norwood 7. Maximum amount of baldness. All of your androgen susceptible hair has shrunk when you reach that level.

Boldy
April 11th, 2012, 08:12 AM
prostaglandin d2 antagonist:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A novel DP(2) receptor antagonist (AM-461): a patent evaluation of WO2011085033.
WO2011085033
http://www.bioportfolio.com/resources/p ... on-Of.html (http://www.bioportfolio.com/resources/pmarticle/255276/A-Novel-Dp-2-Receptor-Antagonist-am-461-A-Patent-Evaluation-Of.html)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22082220
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AM211
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22110163
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MK-7246
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20943773
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ramatroban
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15179446

I'm going to order this one very soon!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromoglicic_acid
Guys, Please stop waisting your time on this one. I have not even 1 clear study that show its spupresses or block the PGD2, GPR44 receptor, You guys cant confuse prostanglandins with Histamine! If someone can prove I'm worng with a study, please do!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We cant use cox2 blockers, because we will also reduce the pgE2 and pgF2... and we dont want that.


So Lets find a good PGD2, GPR44 antagonist!


Just found this intersting patent!:

http://www.google.com/patents/US2011002 ... &q&f=false (http://www.google.com/patents/US20110021599?printsec=abstract#v=onepage&q&f=false)



I'm Also very intersted in the CRTH2 antagonist OC000459
http://www.oxagen.co.uk/crth2-1.htm
http://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Stru ... 37014.html (http://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Structure.9637014.html)

ITs one of the most selective and effective out there (from my findings)

I will arrange custom synthesises These weeks..


I think this is better then ramatroban!

tricospanish
April 11th, 2012, 10:00 AM
"prostaglandins are dysregulated in AGA, the most common type of hair loss in men. Specifically, PGD2 inhibits hair growth and thus represents a negative counterbalance to the positive effects on hair growth shown for PGE2 and PGF2?. Agents such as aspirin, which inhibit upstream prostaglandin synthesis enzymes (PTGS1 and PTGS2), have minimal effects on hair growth because of likely equally decreased production of PGE2 and PGD2."

"highly testosterone-responsive transcript, which further suggests its importance in AGA. PGD2 is thought to play a central role in male gonadal sex determination and is highly expressed in male genitalia. Similarly, Ptgds expression in the heart is regulated by estrogen. Estrogen leads to increases in 15-dPGJ2 levels in the uropygial gland."

"Given the androgens are aromatized into estrogens, these results may be relevant to hair growth and alopecia in men Thus, these or similar pathways might be conserved in the skin and suggest that sex hormone regulation of Ptgds may contribute to the pathogenesis of AGA"

"minoxidil alters potassium channel kinetics, it is also known to increase production of PGE2. Given the decreased amount of PGE2 present in bald scalp versus haired scalp, minoxidil may normalize PGE2 levels. Future studies should address whether minoxidil can concomitantly decrease PGD2 levels and thus normalize multiple prostaglandin species as a mechanism to improve AGA."

"supplemental PGE2 could be therapeutic. By correcting its deficiency and increasing its level in bald scalp, the inhibitory effects of PGD2 may be overcome. Analogs of PGF2?, which are already FDA-approved to promote eyelash growth, should also have similar effects on the scalp and are currently in clinical trials for this indication. Once issues of delivery, dosing, and safety are addressed, additional agonists and antagonists of prostaglandin pathways should become available.

"multiple mechanisms may be responsible for hair loss in AGA. Inhibiting PGD2 may prevent miniaturization and provide benefit to those in the process of balding; however, it is unclear whether men who are already bald will regrow hair."

Prostaglandin D2 Inhibits Hair Growth and Is Elevated in Bald Scalp of Men with Androgenetic Alopecia 2012

Luis A. Garza, Yaping Liu, Zaixin Yang, Brinda Alagesan, John A. Lawson, Scott M.Norberg, Dorothy E. Loy, Tailun Zhao, Hanz B. Blatt, David C. Stanton, Lee Carrasco,Gurpreet Ahluwalia, Susan M. Fischer, Garret A. FitzGerald, and George Cotsarelis

waynakyo
April 11th, 2012, 10:03 PM
Can someone chime in on what vehicle we would need with Ramatroban ?
I want to play with this

squeegee
April 12th, 2012, 12:42 AM
Prostaglandin is just one part of the problem..MPB is still driven by androgen.

so how did you cure your MPB? :whistle:

So do you really think dumbass that Prostaglandin is the only factor in MPB? tell me why most female from our society don't have MPB? haahhahahah Prostaglandin is totally an old ****ing news... Androgen is the main factor in MPB. you cannot go around it.. and you question is so irrelevant.. hahaha damn troll..Prostaglandin is pretty much the inflammation factor.. this is why progenitor cells cannot migrate...

armandein
April 12th, 2012, 01:59 AM
the zone where stem cells migrate is very narrow, so inflammatory events can do it worst, more difficult to travel, even more if exist hardened sebum in the "road". This is my idea, the same in women and men.

Boldy
April 12th, 2012, 05:22 AM
Prostaglandin is just one part of the problem..MPB is still driven by androgen.

so how did you cure your MPB? :whistle:

So do you really think dumbass that Prostaglandin is the only factor in MPB? tell me why most female from our society don't have MPB? haahhahahah Prostaglandin is totally an old f****ing news... Androgen is the main factor in MPB. you cannot go around it.. and you question is so irrelevant.. hahaha damn troll..Prostaglandin is pretty much the inflammation factor.. this is why progenitor cells cannot migrate...


Because Prostanglandins are also regulated by testosterone/DHT! I guess you should read more studies!

Boldy
April 12th, 2012, 05:24 AM
Can someone chime in on what vehicle we would need with Ramatroban ?
I want to play with this


You could use any type of vehicle that will suite you skin type.

liquid/creme. It doesn't matter much at all from my experience.

I'm making a deal for ramatroban at the moment.

fighting-baldness
April 12th, 2012, 06:33 AM
I really see this as something significant indeed. Let's hope this will finally the (main) reason to baldness. This will provide the best cure so far ... at least I am confident to think that.

There are a lot of companies working on baldness and science is improving every day.... It's a matter of time before a cure is founded. Things like this are important discoveries!

Boldy
April 12th, 2012, 05:21 PM
I'm still very intersted in the CRTH2 antagonist OC000459
http://www.oxagen.co.uk/crth2-1.htm
http://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Stru ... 37014.html (http://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Structure.9637014.html)
http://www.google.com/patents/US20100041699

851723-84-7 5-Fluoro-2-methyl-3-quinolin-2-ylmethylindo-1-yl)-acetic


ITs one of the most selective and effective out there (from my findings)

I will arrange custom synthesises These weeks..


I think this is better then ramatroban! Because it wil NOT bind on the Thromboxane receptor, which worries me alot

Guys, I have a price quote. a gram of this HIGHLY selective CRTH2 antagonist WIll cost about 50-100 USD per GRAM. If we use like 1% solution. 1 gram will last +-4-6 months. (Like CB-03-01)

The supplier just needs to know if we are able to reach the minimum of 10 Gram before the start the production. It needs to be custom made and the assay will be 99%.

I will make a signup list, If we could get at least 10 intersted people, The supplier will start the production. This is no group order because anyone could order anytime from the directly supplier, its just a signup list to check if its worth for custom production.

LIST:

Boldy

waynakyo
April 12th, 2012, 07:15 PM
This is a Quote from Costarletis' paper --intro by the editor:


Garza and coauthors identified the receptor GPR44 to be responsible for mediating the negative effects of PGD2

So maybe the real question is how to locally act on GPR44

thoughts ??

Boldy
April 12th, 2012, 08:35 PM
Here is what I dont understand it says in the same article that Merck while testing a drug that does this sees no results for hair. So I mean if a drug they have in advanced testing doing this already shows no hair results what do we make of that?

-------------------------
Merck isn’t studying the anti-flushing drug in hair loss, said Ian McConnell, a Merck spokesman, in a telephone interview. “We haven’t seen any signals” in patient trials that the therapy might reduce baldness, he said.


Laropiprant (Merck's drug) selectively blocks the PD1 receptor - , that isn't the receptor that Cotsarelis was talking about. So Merck's drug won't be of any use to us. I posted a quote on page one of this thread from another forum explaining that.

It is also possible that an oral medicine does not provide an adequate dose to the follicle.

Ramatroban is a weaker CRTH2 inhibitor than Setipiprant but it is an inhibitor nonetheless. It has been prescribed for allergies in Japan for years. If it worked for hair orally i'm sure that would have been discovered by now. But topically perhaps?


And now they even dropped Setipiprant for the new :

CRTH2 antagonist OC000459
http://www.oxagen.co.uk/crth2-1.htm

:)

LooseItAll
April 13th, 2012, 06:06 PM
prostaglandin d2 antagonist:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A novel DP(2) receptor antagonist (AM-461): a patent evaluation of WO2011085033.
WO2011085033
http://www.bioportfolio.com/resources/p ... on-Of.html (http://www.bioportfolio.com/resources/pmarticle/255276/A-Novel-Dp-2-Receptor-Antagonist-am-461-A-Patent-Evaluation-Of.html)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22082220
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AM211
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22110163
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MK-7246
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20943773
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ramatroban
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15179446

I'm going to order this one very soon!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromoglicic_acid
Guys, Please stop waisting your time on this one. I have not even 1 clear study that show its spupresses or block the PGD2, GPR44 receptor, You guys cant confuse prostanglandins with Histamine! If someone can prove I'm worng with a study, please do!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We cant use cox2 blockers, because we will also reduce the pgE2 and pgF2... and we dont want that.


So Lets find a good PGD2, GPR44 antagonist!


Just found this intersting patent!:

http://www.google.com/patents/US2011002 ... &q&f=false (http://www.google.com/patents/US20110021599?printsec=abstract#v=onepage&q&f=false)



I'm Also very intersted in the CRTH2 antagonist OC000459
http://www.oxagen.co.uk/crth2-1.htm
http://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Stru ... 37014.html (http://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Structure.9637014.html)

ITs one of the most selective and effective out there (from my findings)

I will arrange custom synthesises These weeks..


I think this is better then ramatroban!

Acutally from my understanding selective cox-2 inhibitors work by surpressing bad prostaglandins while leaving the good ones PGE and PGF. But hey can also cause some cardiovascular problems but I am not sure if that applies to them being used topically

I am considering topical Celebrex myself. About 3g/1ml of solvent two types a day about 3 ml. So that would give about 20 mg maybe less for safety per day.

Boldy
April 14th, 2012, 06:11 AM
prostaglandin d2 antagonist:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A novel DP(2) receptor antagonist (AM-461): a patent evaluation of WO2011085033.
WO2011085033
http://www.bioportfolio.com/resources/p ... on-Of.html (http://www.bioportfolio.com/resources/pmarticle/255276/A-Novel-Dp-2-Receptor-Antagonist-am-461-A-Patent-Evaluation-Of.html)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22082220
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AM211
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22110163
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MK-7246
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20943773
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ramatroban
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15179446

I'm going to order this one very soon!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromoglicic_acid
Guys, Please stop waisting your time on this one. I have not even 1 clear study that show its spupresses or block the PGD2, GPR44 receptor, You guys cant confuse prostanglandins with Histamine! If someone can prove I'm worng with a study, please do!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We cant use cox2 blockers, because we will also reduce the pgE2 and pgF2... and we dont want that.


So Lets find a good PGD2, GPR44 antagonist!


Just found this intersting patent!:

http://www.google.com/patents/US2011002 ... &q&f=false (http://www.google.com/patents/US20110021599?printsec=abstract#v=onepage&q&f=false)



I'm Also very intersted in the CRTH2 antagonist OC000459
http://www.oxagen.co.uk/crth2-1.htm
http://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Stru ... 37014.html (http://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Structure.9637014.html)

ITs one of the most selective and effective out there (from my findings)

I will arrange custom synthesises These weeks..


I think this is better then ramatroban!

Acutally from my understanding selective cox-2 inhibitors work by surpressing bad prostaglandins while leaving the good ones PGE and PGF. But hey can also cause some cardiovascular problems but I am not sure if that applies to them being used topically

I am considering topical Celebrex myself. About 3g/1ml of solvent two types a day about 3 ml. So that would give about 20 mg maybe less for safety per day.


NO,
supressing cox2, will also reduce PGE2! and other good prostaglandins like maybe PGF2a

If you do a cox2 inhibiator, you should ad topically PG2Fa, or PGE2. Like Bimatoprost.

LooseItAll
April 14th, 2012, 05:24 PM
prostaglandin d2 antagonist:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A novel DP(2) receptor antagonist (AM-461): a patent evaluation of WO2011085033.
WO2011085033
http://www.bioportfolio.com/resources/p ... on-Of.html (http://www.bioportfolio.com/resources/pmarticle/255276/A-Novel-Dp-2-Receptor-Antagonist-am-461-A-Patent-Evaluation-Of.html)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22082220
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AM211
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22110163
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MK-7246
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20943773
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ramatroban
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15179446

I'm going to order this one very soon!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromoglicic_acid
Guys, Please stop waisting your time on this one. I have not even 1 clear study that show its spupresses or block the PGD2, GPR44 receptor, You guys cant confuse prostanglandins with Histamine! If someone can prove I'm worng with a study, please do!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We cant use cox2 blockers, because we will also reduce the pgE2 and pgF2... and we dont want that.


So Lets find a good PGD2, GPR44 antagonist!


Just found this intersting patent!:

http://www.google.com/patents/US2011002 ... &q&f=false (http://www.google.com/patents/US20110021599?printsec=abstract#v=onepage&q&f=false)



I'm Also very intersted in the CRTH2 antagonist OC000459
http://www.oxagen.co.uk/crth2-1.htm
http://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Stru ... 37014.html (http://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Structure.9637014.html)

ITs one of the most selective and effective out there (from my findings)

I will arrange custom synthesises These weeks..


I think this is better then ramatroban!

Acutally from my understanding selective cox-2 inhibitors work by surpressing bad prostaglandins while leaving the good ones PGE and PGF. But hey can also cause some cardiovascular problems but I am not sure if that applies to them being used topically

I am considering topical Celebrex myself. About 3g/1ml of solvent two types a day about 3 ml. So that would give about 20 mg maybe less for safety per day.


NO,
supressing cox2, will also reduce PGE2! and other good prostaglandins like maybe PGF2a

If you do a cox2 inhibiator, you should ad topically PG2Fa, or PGE2. Like Bimatoprost.

Aye you are correct. COX-1 produces the base levels of prostaglandins. Obviousy that is ov no harm(I don't even know if COX-1 is present in the scalp.

Now COX-2 overexpression is induced by DHT, so that would explain why women are not that prone to androgenic alopecia. COX-2 is present in the inflammation sites, so we can safely assume that increased DHT levels in balding scalp lead to increase of COX-2 and that leads to increased levels of PGD2 and PGE2 but the deal is that obviously the excess PGE2 producton does not do us any favor otherwise we woudn't be balding. COX-2 also produces some other type of PGE2 called PGE2-G.

I think it is worth giving a shot till we don't have an easily available GPR44 inhibitor. But I agree an additional synthetic PGF2a could really help. Also minoxidil as long as it increases PGE2 levels through COX-1 not 2.

young trunks
April 14th, 2012, 05:25 PM
Hi all.. I am suffering extreme thinning at extreme rate.. What pgd2 is everybody recommending topically. I want to handle this and stop worrying so bad. People are making fun of me in my family......

But the eye drops are best recommended to block pgd2?

squeegee
April 14th, 2012, 08:31 PM
You guys should overdose on 5-loxin.. Cheap and works really good..Inhibit pro-inflammatory leukotrienes and prostaglandins.

young trunks
April 14th, 2012, 09:42 PM
You guys should overdose on 5-loxin.. Cheap and works really good..Inhibit pro-inflammatory leukotrienes and prostaglandins.

Topically? Does it effect dht internally?

Boldy
April 14th, 2012, 09:45 PM
further analysis of the mechanism of action of ramatroban has now been performed. PGD2-stimulated human eosinophil migration was shown to be mediated exclusively through activation of CRTH2, and surprisingly, these effects were completely inhibited by ramatroban!!!!!! :) I guess ramatroban + PGF2alpha (bimatropost) SHOULD mean FULL REGROWTH! (its what I hope!)I truely believe in it

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/305/1/347.long

young trunks
April 14th, 2012, 11:41 PM
further analysis of the mechanism of action of ramatroban has now been performed. PGD2-stimulated human eosinophil migration was shown to be mediated exclusively through activation of CRTH2, and surprisingly, these effects were completely inhibited by ramatroban!!!!!! :) I guess ramatroban + PGF2alpha (bimatropost) SHOULD mean FULL REGROWTH! (its what I hope!)I truely believe in it

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/305/1/347.long

So what should I use?? I can't wait any longer...

I did lots of research all day and have come up with a possible regimen.
Omega 3 blocks prostaglandins d2. Take it and hair vitamins...(but I had thyroid test done and everything fine). Back to regimen.

Take Fish Oil/Cod liver oil. Take hair vitamins if you think ur lacking...and take Cayenne Pepper/Fruit supplement to increase blood flow in body. This will get vitamins to the head/scalp. FAST!!

Exercise run for a bit too it really helps circulation and cayenne really does too...from experience.

Topically..I'm still trying to figure out but I think Emu oil or Fish Oil used as a deep condtioner will eliminate the pdg2. Or whatever you all suggest as the inhibitor. And use a shampoo that is none sls.

I think that Fish Oil topically is the best pdg2 without side effects bc it is hormone stuff that the body uses to fight it off anyway. That would mean the same for head topically right??

what do you all think?

LooseItAll
April 15th, 2012, 06:27 AM
further analysis of the mechanism of action of ramatroban has now been performed. PGD2-stimulated human eosinophil migration was shown to be mediated exclusively through activation of CRTH2, and surprisingly, these effects were completely inhibited by ramatroban!!!!!! :) I guess ramatroban + PGF2alpha (bimatropost) SHOULD mean FULL REGROWTH! (its what I hope!)I truely believe in it

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/305/1/347.long

Yes. Unfortunately Ramatroban is only available from china and is quite pricey. There is no way to get your hands on japanese Baynas. Same goes for Seratrodast.

TravisB
April 15th, 2012, 06:45 AM
I don't like the title of this topic. The cure is NOWHERE near.

Boldy
April 15th, 2012, 07:04 AM
Nonsense!

The cure is already there. We just need to grab it!


ramatroban is 103 usd/G. And possible for 50-70usd/G if we make a signup list. Let say 10 people are going to order ramatroban, Then I or someone else contacts the seller for discount. Very simple!

I guess you never used cb-03-01 (390usd/gram)... so ramatroban is cheap compared to that.


And in the future withing 4 months we will have the CRTH2 antagonist OC000459 on our scalps!!

LooseItAll
April 15th, 2012, 07:08 AM
103/g from an unverified supplier...

Plus we need to be careful. The study did not conduct that PGD2 alone is causing hair miniaturisation but rather excess levels of it. PGD2 is still present in smaller amounts in non balding areas and may be actually benefitial

TravisB
April 15th, 2012, 07:26 AM
The study did not conduct that PGD2 alone is causing hair miniaturisation but rather excess levels of it.

This.

And also, 103 dollars for a gram? For how long would the gram last? Could we use it topically? What would be the vehicle then? I'm skeptical that it will work, but nevertheless I would like to see someone try it :P

EDIT:

OK, from here: http://www.rad-ar.or.jp/siori/english/kekka.cgi?n=1193

Baynas tablets are 50 mg, and the dosage is 75 mg twice daily. So it's 150 mg daily. So a gram would last us 1000/150 = about a week. It would be 400$ month, so it's ****ing expensive if you ask me!

Also look at the common side effects:


Common side effects are reported as below. If any of them occurs, check with your doctor/pharmacist: abdominal pain, headache, dull headache, sleepiness, rash, itch, nausea, diarrhea, palpitation, gastric discomfort, uric blood, gum bleeding, nasal bleeding, subcutaneous bleeding, purpura, prolonged menstruation, etc.

LooseItAll
April 15th, 2012, 08:30 AM
The study did not conduct that PGD2 alone is causing hair miniaturisation but rather excess levels of it.

This.

And also, 103 dollars for a gram? For how long would the gram last? Could we use it topically? What would be the vehicle then? I'm skeptical that it will work, but nevertheless I would like to see someone try it :P

EDIT:

OK, from here: http://www.rad-ar.or.jp/siori/english/kekka.cgi?n=1193

Baynas tablets are 50 mg, and the dosage is 75 mg twice daily. So it's 150 mg daily. So a gram would last us 1000/150 = about a week. It would be 400$ month, so it's f****ing expensive if you ask me!

Also look at the common side effects:


Common side effects are reported as below. If any of them occurs, check with your doctor/pharmacist: abdominal pain, headache, dull headache, sleepiness, rash, itch, nausea, diarrhea, palpitation, gastric discomfort, uric blood, gum bleeding, nasal bleeding, subcutaneous bleeding, purpura, prolonged menstruation, etc.


Well not exactly. 150 mg is the oral dose so it is a dose for the whole body. A topical application of 15 mg would probavbly be more than enough.

Boldy
April 15th, 2012, 09:05 AM
I going to start with 0.5%

Thats 5mg/ml.

Its okay to be skeptikal. But I'm pretty convinced thst pgd2 is
The bad ass that inhibits out hairgrowth. After reading much studies. Pgd2 is 12 times more present in the balding area compared with non balding people. :)

TravisB
April 15th, 2012, 09:35 AM
But have you thought about what will dissolve the tablet?

waynakyo
April 15th, 2012, 09:41 AM
For those who are suggesting you can eat/run something available in nature to cure baldness:

I just made this from back of envelope calculations (lazy Sunday):
http://s15.postimage.org/qbgf0pqvf/humans.jpg

It plots the number of population since 10000BC until today, and assumes that every year one in 20 thousand people trying rubbing something new one their hair. Is this too much or is it too conservative ? I think it is definitely quite conservative for nowadays. Further, in terms of eating habits, people ate all kinda of stuff, and I am pretty sure that more than 1/20 000 tried something new every year... but to be on the conservative side, given these assumptions, you have until today: 60 million hair loss experiments. This is cumulative (while the population line is not, also take note of the 2 axes).

this is why I never try to rub something that is bioavailable in nature, as people have definitely tried that. But you cannot say the same for RU,Fin, and other stuff made in the labs...
hope this will deter further waste of time...

I think the Ramotroban on the other hand is very promising.. attacking 2 mechanisms is better than one.. so please keep me posted

2020
April 15th, 2012, 09:49 AM
anyone want to look into Nettle Root Extract?


....Nettle root also has anti-inflammatory effects by reducing leukotriene and prostaglandin synthesis.....

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

tomcatt
April 15th, 2012, 10:58 AM
9HODE extract from Glechoma hederacea (a plant) is an antagonist of PGD2 :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3691528

They don't talk about PGE2 or PGF2 .

Swopo
April 15th, 2012, 12:33 PM
9HODE extract from Glechoma hederacea (a plant) is an antagonist of PGD2 :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3691528

They don't talk about PGE2 or PGF2 .

should we take this internaly or topicaly?

Can you check out Calendula also? Maybe it could be used instead of minoxidil.
It cures acne and everything on skin and increases blood flow. Wounds heal quicker also if you rub the flower or the oil on it..

Regarding herbal medicine, rosemary should help with hairloss.

This would be amazing. A regimen with those 4 plants would cost me just the cost of the alcohol.

LooseItAll
April 15th, 2012, 02:53 PM
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/2 ... 8.full.pdf (http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/298/4/E838.full.pdf)

Here is the link to the study. DHT via androgen receptor icreases COX-2, but PGE2 levels are not significantly icreased(while PGD2 levels are probably increased). As oposed to "legit" inflammation where COX-2 derived PGE2 increases.

I am even more keen on trying topical celecoxib now.

Cody333
April 15th, 2012, 08:20 PM
Boldy, are you going to do any home experiments?

young trunks
April 15th, 2012, 08:43 PM
After I finish this regimen in a lil less than a week in half I'm going to try this other regimen I just thought about.

Nizoral/ketoconazole combined Emu oil combined. If I'm correct the Emu Oil will block the PGD2 bc it has Omega 3 in it. And it absorbs fast. The niz/keto will deal with the dht.

Then I will continue to take Omega 3 and cayenne pepper (to make sure the stuff gets to the scalp internally)

I think this may work for us all...bc it's attacking everything..I'll let everybody know... what yal think??

young trunks
April 15th, 2012, 08:54 PM
Nevermind I can't use keto too many sides...gotta make new plan up

Cody333
April 15th, 2012, 09:39 PM
Emu oil won't help, it's pointless imo. If people are going to try and block the right receptor, it's going to take a topical made from a clinically tested drug to achieve the right result. Boldy seems to be going in the right direction.

LooseItAll
April 16th, 2012, 03:47 AM
1.Pls see the quotation below~~~

Product: Ramatroban

CAS?116649-85-5

Price: USD90/g including the delivery fee

Package: 5g/bag

Assay: ?99.9%

Quantity: 5g

Delivery: shipment within 3 days, after received the payment

Payment: T/T in advance

Validity date: 7 working days


2.Pls see the quotation below~~~

Product: Ramatroban

CAS?116649-85-5

Price: USD290/g including the delivery fee

Package: 1g/bag

Assay: ?99.9%

Quantity: 1g

Delivery: shipment within 3 days, after received the payment

Payment: T/T in advance

Validity date: 7 working days

Jinan Boss Chemical Industry Co.,Ltd

90 usd for 1g in a 5g package is a very good price. But 1 g package is unaffordable.

Boldy
April 16th, 2012, 03:51 AM
OC000459


I think OC000459 is better then ramatroban! Because it wil NOT bind on the Thromboxane receptor, which should be alot mor safe!! and even cheaper :)




1.Pls see the quotation below~~~

Product: Ramatroban

CAS?116649-85-5

Price: USD90/g including the delivery fee

Package: 5g/bag

Assay: ?99.9%

Quantity: 5g

Delivery: shipment within 3 days, after received the payment

Payment: T/T in advance

Validity date: 7 working days


2.Pls see the quotation below~~~

Product: Ramatroban

CAS?116649-85-5

Price: USD290/g including the delivery fee

Package: 1g/bag

Assay: ?99.9%

Quantity: 1g

Delivery: shipment within 3 days, after received the payment

Payment: T/T in advance

Validity date: 7 working days

paul27
April 16th, 2012, 04:54 AM
Where is this chemical company located? Will they ship to Canada and would customs pulled it if it's not FDA or Health Canada approved?

Boldy
April 16th, 2012, 11:33 AM
Where is this chemical company located? Will they ship to Canada and would customs pulled it if it's not FDA or Health Canada approved?

usually all the Chinese supplies note something legal on the package so we dont get problems with the customs.

I never had trouble with getting rum cb-03 or asc-j9. they all are not fda approved :)

young trunks
April 16th, 2012, 11:45 AM
Where is this chemical company located? Will they ship to Canada and would customs pulled it if it's not FDA or Health Canada approved?

usually all the Chinese supplies note something legal on the package so we dont get problems with the customs.

I never had trouble with getting rum cb-03 or asc-j9. they all are not fda approved :)

Once you find the products please give links to em for purchase. I don't see any of it. On a personal note I've been taking fermented cod/fish oil and cayenne and miconazle/olive oil condtionioning remedy and my shedding has decreased ALOT. Not even a week with regimen.

I found it on yt this dude that did it and showed his results.

How long will it be before you think about trying a regimen for pgd2?

Boldy
April 16th, 2012, 12:19 PM
Where is this chemical company located? Will they ship to Canada and would customs pulled it if it's not FDA or Health Canada approved?

usually all the Chinese supplies note something legal on the package so we dont get problems with the customs.

I never had trouble with getting rum cb-03 or asc-j9. they all are not fda approved :)

Once you find the products please give links to em for purchase. I don't see any of it. On a personal note I've been taking fermented cod/fish oil and cayenne and miconazle/olive oil condtionioning remedy and my shedding has decreased ALOT. Not even a week with regimen.

I found it on yt this dude that did it and showed his results.

How long will it be before you think about trying a regimen for pgd2?


Well we have 2 options at the moment for Good prostaglandin d2 blockers.

1 Ramatroban -> already availible if you google a bit, you find a supplier that sels it for 103 usd.

2 OC000459, this chemical should be saver because it should not bind to the tomboxone receptor.

OC000459 needs to be synthesised and that could take +- 4-6 weeks. and the prices will be 60- 100usd/Gram, so pretty cheap treatment compared with cb-3

The problem with OC000459, is that the suppliers are not going to make this stuff for just 1 person that needs 1 gram. they need atleast 10 people or 10 gram order. before the start the production.


the thing is, we cant discuss sign up lists or discussions about grouporders any more on this forum. the admin dont allow that any more , its a new rule of this forum. :(


very very fortunately because OC000459, seem to be the idial drug for targeting the CRTH2 receptor. :)

so very fortunate we cant work this out here on this forum.

But I will find A way to let OC000459 produced, but signup list cant be done on this forum.

Joshuk
April 16th, 2012, 12:57 PM
im up for trying this think we should get some more people involved

im willing to put some money into this and get some made up.

i only use expermintal treatments anyway so id like to add PRD2 blocker possibly aswell

young trunks
April 16th, 2012, 01:56 PM
im up for trying this think we should get some more people involved

im willing to put some money into this and get some made up.

i only use expermintal treatments anyway so id like to add PRD2 blocker possibly aswellSame here...although Im not permitted to work bc of physical disablity. I could sell somethin on ebay and cash in...

how about as soon as we get enough people to get involved we join....??? damn there's gotta be some sort of forum.

Boldy
April 16th, 2012, 01:58 PM
im up for trying this think we should get some more people involved

im willing to put some money into this and get some made up.

i only use expermintal treatments anyway so id like to add PRD2 blocker possibly aswellSame here...although Im not permitted to work bc of physical disablity. I could sell somethin on ebay and cash in...

how about as soon as we get enough people to get involved we join....??? damn there's gotta be some sort of forum.


Guys,

please remember and respect the rules, we cant discuss these kind of things in here. I dont like this topic being closed by the admin. when i posted a new topic for signup list, my post got deleted by the admin. they told me its not allowed any-more on this forum.

I truly believe We are SO close! pgd2 blocker + minoxidil or bimatoporst should stop hairloss and with a bit of luck regrowth :)

there are other forums with the same topic, just google it. I guess I can not mention it in here.

2020
April 16th, 2012, 04:37 PM
bimatoprost is latisse..... What's everyone's obsession with latisse?!?? That **** doesn't work for your hair. Just drop it

hammer2012
April 16th, 2012, 05:44 PM
latisse won't work it only contains 0.03% of the active ingredient

Cody333
April 16th, 2012, 06:11 PM
im up for trying this think we should get some more people involved

im willing to put some money into this and get some made up.

i only use expermintal treatments anyway so id like to add PRD2 blocker possibly aswellSame here...although Im not permitted to work bc of physical disablity. I could sell somethin on ebay and cash in...

how about as soon as we get enough people to get involved we join....??? damn there's gotta be some sort of forum.


Guys,

please remember and respect the rules, we cant discuss these kind of things in here. I dont like this topic being closed by the admin. when i posted a new topic for signup list, my post got deleted by the admin. they told me its not allowed any-more on this forum.

I truly believe We are SO close! pgd2 blocker + minoxidil or bimatoporst should stop hairloss and with a bit of luck regrowth :)

there are other forums with the same topic, just google it. I guess I can not mention it in here.


Why don't you join hairsite and get a list of people together on there who are willing to be part of the experiment, they usually have people on their who will be interested in trying stuff like this. Try this section of their forum to find people who are willing.

http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/board-category-1.html

Boldy
April 16th, 2012, 06:33 PM
Lets just discuss the pgd2. Keep it ontopic. please.

sapinho
April 16th, 2012, 08:00 PM
The general impression is this:

DHT => Elevated COX-2 => Elevated PGD2 => Let's block COX-2 or PGD2

Where,
-- Blocking COX-2 => Lower PGE2 (bad)
-- Blocking PGD2 has unknown additional consequences (maybe "some" is necessary)

But wait, why would higher COX-2 not lead to higher PGE2? (according to the study there where "low" PGE2 levels)

And how exactly does DHT lead to COX-2? What are the intermediate reactions? If our goal is to bring the skin to normal levels, isn't this worth a look?

Finally, somewhat popular on these boards over the years have been NF-kappaB blockers for reduced COX-2 (and unfortunately reduced PGE2?). Is this perhaps a clue as to how DHT leads to increased COX-2? Probably not, but worth a thought.

Cody333
April 16th, 2012, 10:07 PM
Lets just discuss the pgd2. Keep it ontopic. please.

You said you wanted to form a group to buy the stuff, but you weren't allowed to discuss it on here, what's the point of keeping the thread going if you can't discuss testing it?

Boldy
April 17th, 2012, 08:22 AM
Lets just discuss the pgd2. Keep it ontopic. please.

You said you wanted to form a group to buy the stuff, but you weren't allowed to discuss it on here, what's the point of keeping the thread going if you can't discuss testing it?
\

well, we can discuss testing it, but the admin cassin does not allow us to make a list and discuss group buys.. So we can discuss the pgd2 blockers, but need to keep track of the people that are intersted in this blocker, somewhere else, like other forum, or maybe by email or so.

Boldy
April 17th, 2012, 08:25 AM
well, it does'nt matter that much I guess,

To be shure, we can still keep the pge2+pgf2alpha levels high by bimatoprost,lanatropost, or maybe minoxidil.

In combination with CRTH2 antagonist, we could reach the ideal growth circumstances for the hairfolicle. :) ("NO PGd2 effects, and high PGF2a+PGE" |The time will tell if its even possible for full regrowth. thats what I'm hoping for.


The general impression is this:

DHT => Elevated COX-2 => Elevated PGD2 => Let's block COX-2 or PGD2

Where,
-- Blocking COX-2 => Lower PGE2 (bad)
-- Blocking PGD2 has unknown additional consequences (maybe "some" is necessary)

But wait, why would higher COX-2 not lead to higher PGE2? (according to the study there where "low" PGE2 levels)

And how exactly does DHT lead to COX-2? What are the intermediate reactions? If our goal is to bring the skin to normal levels, isn't this worth a look?

Finally, somewhat popular on these boards over the years have been NF-kappaB blockers for reduced COX-2 (and unfortunately reduced PGE2?). Is this perhaps a clue as to how DHT leads to increased COX-2? Probably not, but worth a thought.

Boldy
April 17th, 2012, 08:35 AM
Good news GUYS,

I have convinced the suppler that we have at least 10 interested people! They are starting the production this week.

I CAN NOT share the source on this forum Because I dont think the admins like us to discuss souces on this forum.

So just do a google search on "Prostaglandin D2 -CRTH2-Inhibitors. " and you will find a discussion about this chemical.





Once you find the products please give links to em for purchase. I don't see any of it. On a personal note I've been taking fermented cod/fish oil and cayenne and miconazle/olive oil condtionioning remedy and my shedding has decreased ALOT. Not even a week with regimen.

I found it on yt this dude that did it and showed his results.

How long will it be before you think about trying a regimen for pgd2?


Well we have 2 options at the moment for Good prostaglandin d2 blockers.

1 Ramatroban -> already availible if you google a bit, you find a supplier that sels it for 103 usd.

2 OC000459, this chemical should be saver because it should not bind to the tomboxone receptor.

OC000459 needs to be synthesised and that could take +- 4-6 weeks. and the prices will be 60- 100usd/Gram, so pretty cheap treatment compared with cb-3

The problem with OC000459, is that the suppliers are not going to make this stuff for just 1 person that needs 1 gram. they need atleast 10 people or 10 gram order. before the start the production.


the thing is, we cant discuss sign up lists or discussions about grouporders any more on this forum. the admin dont allow that any more , its a new rule of this forum. :(


very very fortunately because OC000459, seem to be the idial drug for targeting the CRTH2 receptor. :)

so very fortunate we cant work this out here on this forum.

But I will find A way to let OC000459 produced, but signup list cant be done on this forum.

Ball Pattern Menless
April 17th, 2012, 08:57 AM
There's a simple way to test that : take aspirine topically or orally regulary.


http://biograph.be/concept/graph/C1319853/C1415238

Aspirine is proven to inhibit the 'GPR44 gene' responsible of athma on human.
That is logical as at the begining, they discover that prostaglandline G2 was reponsible of AGA by resaerching a cure for asthma.

ericando12
April 17th, 2012, 09:56 AM
Personnally i like the Natural hair loss treatment because is a wonderful option for those suffering with any sort of hair loss. Treating hair loss naturally is becoming a trend for treating hair problems and todays media plays a vital role in popularizing the trend.
Vitamin A

Vitamin B6, B12, Folic Acid
Vitamin C

Vitamin E
Iron (Heme)
Zinc
Iodine

Proteins
Silica
you can choose as much as possible.

Ball Pattern Menless
April 17th, 2012, 10:06 AM
Everybody here has already tested that. It certainly helps, but it does not cure at all. And what we are looking for is a cure. Hope that one will be release soon...


Personnally i like the Natural hair loss treatment because is a wonderful option for those suffering with any sort of hair loss. Treating hair loss naturally is becoming a trend for treating hair problems and todays media plays a vital role in popularizing the trend.
Vitamin A

Vitamin B6, B12, Folic Acid
Vitamin C

Vitamin E
Iron (Heme)
Zinc
Iodine

Proteins
Silica
you can choose as much as possible.

Boldy
April 17th, 2012, 11:37 AM
Asperin does also supress COX, which will lower the good prostaglandins like E2 and F2a etc..

its not the perfect solution. Because we need PGE2 +PGF2alpha. They are the growth stimulators.

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/cate ... entercat=y (http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/categories.cfm?catid=7&entercat=y)

Good news GUYS,

I have convinced the suppler that we have at least 10 interested people! They are starting the production this week.

I CAN NOT share the source on this forum Because I dont think the admins like us to discuss souces on this forum.

So just do a google search on "Prostaglandin D2 -CRTH2-Inhibitors. " and you will find a discussion about this chemical.





Once you find the products please give links to em for purchase. I don't see any of it. On a personal note I've been taking fermented cod/fish oil and cayenne and miconazle/olive oil condtionioning remedy and my shedding has decreased ALOT. Not even a week with regimen.

I found it on yt this dude that did it and showed his results.

How long will it be before you think about trying a regimen for pgd2?


Well we have 2 options at the moment for Good prostaglandin d2 blockers.

1 Ramatroban -> already availible if you google a bit, you find a supplier that sels it for 103 usd.

2 OC000459, this chemical should be saver because it should not bind to the tomboxone receptor.

OC000459 needs to be synthesised and that could take +- 4-6 weeks. and the prices will be 60- 100usd/Gram, so pretty cheap treatment compared with cb-3

The problem with OC000459, is that the suppliers are not going to make this stuff for just 1 person that needs 1 gram. they need atleast 10 people or 10 gram order. before the start the production.


the thing is, we cant discuss sign up lists or discussions about grouporders any more on this forum. the admin dont allow that any more , its a new rule of this forum. :(


very very fortunately because OC000459, seem to be the idial drug for targeting the CRTH2 receptor. :)

so very fortunate we cant work this out here on this forum.

But I will find A way to let OC000459 produced, but signup list cant be done on this forum.

tomcatt
April 17th, 2012, 01:48 PM
The problem with OC000459, is that the suppliers are not going to make this stuff for just 1 person that needs 1 gram. they need atleast 10 people or 10 gram order. before the start the production.


may be we can ask oc or another lab...

young trunks
April 17th, 2012, 03:00 PM
Lets just discuss the pgd2. Keep it ontopic. please.

You said you wanted to form a group to buy the stuff, but you weren't allowed to discuss it on here, what's the point of keeping the thread going if you can't discuss testing it?
\

well, we can discuss testing it, but the admin cassin does not allow us to make a list and discuss group buys.. So we can discuss the pgd2 blockers, but need to keep track of the people that are intersted in this blocker, somewhere else, like other forum, or maybe by email or so.

Can we discuss email addresses so that we can contact outside this forum?

Boldy
April 17th, 2012, 03:13 PM
The problem with OC000459, is that the suppliers are not going to make this stuff for just 1 person that needs 1 gram. they need atleast 10 people or 10 gram order. before the start the production.


may be we can ask oc or another lab...


OC is just a middle man, and the production of OC000459, is already started since today. :)


I will revile the Lab details. but not on this forum. Sorry guys, Just following the rules.. Do a 2 minute google search!! and you will find forums, where lists, and sources are accepted to discuss!. you will find them.


hairlosshelp. is a possibility.

Joshuk
April 17th, 2012, 04:16 PM
boldy can u hit me up in a PM message the website where the buy is going down i want to try this aswell as RU to see if i can maximize treatments.

thanks bud

israelite
April 17th, 2012, 04:24 PM
Count me in .

2020
April 17th, 2012, 06:25 PM
Count me in .

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/18314368/images/1331682291666.jpg

2020
April 17th, 2012, 06:26 PM
seriously, this is all based on some information some kid posted.... how likely that this will work at all? Any safety concerns?

LooseItAll
April 18th, 2012, 03:07 AM
The general impression is this:

DHT => Elevated COX-2 => Elevated PGD2 => Let's block COX-2 or PGD2

Where,
-- Blocking COX-2 => Lower PGE2 (bad)
-- Blocking PGD2 has unknown additional consequences (maybe "some" is necessary)

But wait, why would higher COX-2 not lead to higher PGE2? (according to the study there where "low" PGE2 levels)

And how exactly does DHT lead to COX-2? What are the intermediate reactions? If our goal is to bring the skin to normal levels, isn't this worth a look?

Finally, somewhat popular on these boards over the years have been NF-kappaB blockers for reduced COX-2 (and unfortunately reduced PGE2?). Is this perhaps a clue as to how DHT leads to increased COX-2? Probably not, but worth a thought.

I've already posted a study:

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/2 ... 8.full.pdf (http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/298/4/E838.full.pdf)

Because DHT induced COX-2 does not produce PGE2. Only inflammatory induced COX-2 raises PGE2 considerably. That's why I think a topical COX-2 inhibitor should work wonders + minoxidil

I will try the topical COX-2 inhibitor route for now. So it would be good if someone tested the GPR44 antagonist approach either with ramatroban or this OC stuff.

Boldy
April 18th, 2012, 04:30 AM
Dont worry,

there will be more then 10 people testing OC000459, and also a couple testing ramatroban.


I'm going to use OC000459 + bimatoprost



The general impression is this:

DHT => Elevated COX-2 => Elevated PGD2 => Let's block COX-2 or PGD2

Where,
-- Blocking COX-2 => Lower PGE2 (bad)
-- Blocking PGD2 has unknown additional consequences (maybe "some" is necessary)

But wait, why would higher COX-2 not lead to higher PGE2? (according to the study there where "low" PGE2 levels)

And how exactly does DHT lead to COX-2? What are the intermediate reactions? If our goal is to bring the skin to normal levels, isn't this worth a look?

Finally, somewhat popular on these boards over the years have been NF-kappaB blockers for reduced COX-2 (and unfortunately reduced PGE2?). Is this perhaps a clue as to how DHT leads to increased COX-2? Probably not, but worth a thought.

I've already posted a study:

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/2 ... 8.full.pdf (http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/298/4/E838.full.pdf)

Because DHT induced COX-2 does not produce PGE2. Only inflammatory induced COX-2 raises PGE2 considerably. That's why I think a topical COX-2 inhibitor should work wonders + minoxidil

I will try the topical COX-2 inhibitor route for now. So it would be good if someone tested the GPR44 antagonist approach either with ramatroban or this OC stuff.

GroLocks
April 18th, 2012, 10:51 AM
I'm interested in the source for OC000459. Can someone PM me with info. Thanks.

Boldy
April 18th, 2012, 01:11 PM
I'm interested in the source for OC000459. Can someone PM me with info. Thanks.

Do a google search.


"hairlosshelp". is a possibility.

2020
April 18th, 2012, 01:47 PM
what are the chances that this will actually work? :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

And if it does: what about safety?

Boldy
April 18th, 2012, 01:57 PM
what are the chances that this will actually work? :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

And if it does: what about safety?


Bro,

In theory Chemicals like RU, fina etc, reduce PGD2. If we use ramatroban or a more selective antagonist like OC000459, the PGD2 receptors Will be completly blocked. so again in theory Much more efficient. So the chances Are pretty big.

We will not experince the Anti androgenic sides Like sexual sides, But I'm sure there will be sides, Like every medecine in the world has its sides.

its like a chain reaction. if you change something in the body, the other hormones, enzymes will be affected.

What the sides exactest are?, We will find out soon.

You could also wait for 6 months and await the first experience of users.

of even better wait 5-10 years, intill the have done more studies that prove that pgd2 is the badass.


I'm not going to wait, because I'm verry convinced after reading these studies. It makes sence to me, and also it now makes sence to me why anti androgens work and why minox work. The all effect the good and bad prostaglandines. Like PGD2,PGf2alpha,PgE2

2020
April 18th, 2012, 03:07 PM
In theory Chemicals like RU, fina etc, reduce PGD2. If we use ramatroban or a more selective antagonist like OC000459, the PGD2 receptors Will be completly blocked. so again in theory Much more efficient. So the chances Are pretty big.


but how do you know that PGD2 alone is responsible for hairloss? Could be other things too.
Even this chemical blocked 100% of PGD2(wow really?), then hair loss could still progress because of some other proteins.

ALSO: non-balding men have levels of PGD2 too, they're just lower. Why don't they go bald???





I'm not going to wait, because I'm verry convinced after reading these studies. It makes sence to me, and also it now makes sence to me why anti androgens work and why minox work. The all effect the good and bad prostaglandines. Like PGD2,PGf2alpha,PgE2

minoxidil really?? Explain then why minoxidil works on body hair as well....



If that chemical you guys just bought truly blocks(100%) the SOLE PROTEIN responsible for hair loss, then you should probably expect results within the next 3 months

Boldy
April 18th, 2012, 03:49 PM
You still dont get it, and from your answers, I can tell you dont ready studies, and still trying to discourage people from trying to use their resources to cure MPB. It makes no sense.

if you had read atleast one studie, you would had know, that minox is a vasadilator... these plays a big role in hairgrowth.


if PGD2 is really the answer Which I'm almost shure of, results would be shown within 3-6 months indeed! :)


It makes no sence to discourage people from trying to save their hair.

Only time will tell if the studies are Right!

I got a big hope ;)

tricospanish
April 18th, 2012, 04:12 PM
http://www.tocris.com/dispprod.php?ItemId=40538

2020
April 18th, 2012, 05:14 PM
You still dont get it, and from your answers, I can tell you dont ready studies, and still trying to discourage people from trying to use their resources to cure MPB. It makes no sense.

if you had read atleast one studie, you would had know, that minox is a vasadilator... these plays a big role in hairgrowth.


if PGD2 is really the answer Which I'm almost shure of, results would be shown within 3-6 months indeed! :)


It makes no sence to discourage people from trying to save their hair.

Only time will tell if the studies are Right!

I got a big hope ;)

lol I'm not discouraging, I'm just very skeptical.

If it was that easy to stop baldness 100%, then some company would have started working on such topical ASAP.
I'm pretty sure it's more complicated than you think it is..... oh well, we'll see in a couple months I guess


Answer my old question:

"ALSO: non-balding men have levels of PGD2 too, they're just lower. Why don't they go bald???"

Boldy
April 18th, 2012, 05:24 PM
the answer is in the study my friend. ;)


they dont have 12 times Higher prostaglandine D2 so also not 12 times more inflammation count.

the balding people, have a gene, that elevate PGD2 in the scalp. The people without this gene, Wont go bald.
this news/study is just published on 22 of march!

Companies cant just make a topical within 1 month you smartass :P..
these Blockers they all are patented, and must be FDA approved first for hairloss. by that time, I'm going to be bald, if I wait for the FDA.

So I'm jumping on the boat, and no one can stop or discourag me.

Just sick with your comfortable oldschool Androgen receptor pathway treatments. Intill the FDA approves PGD2 blockers for hairloss.



I'm going to stop this discussion with you. It makes no sense to me. You are not stopping me from trying this super opportunity . I dont know exactley what your goal/ role is in this topic,but We already got 25 people to try this one, results should be in 3-6 months.


thanks for your contribution.





You still dont get it, and from your answers, I can tell you dont ready studies, and still trying to discourage people from trying to use their resources to cure MPB. It makes no sense.

if you had read atleast one studie, you would had know, that minox is a vasadilator... these plays a big role in hairgrowth.


if PGD2 is really the answer Which I'm almost shure of, results would be shown within 3-6 months indeed! :)


It makes no sence to discourage people from trying to save their hair.

Only time will tell if the studies are Right!

I got a big hope ;)

lol I'm not discouraging, I'm just very skeptical.

If it was that easy to stop baldness 100%, then some company would have started working on such topical ASAP.
I'm pretty sure it's more complicated than you think it is..... oh well, we'll see in a couple months I guess


Answer my old question:

"ALSO: non-balding men have levels of PGD2 too, they're just lower. Why don't they go bald???"

Cody1212
April 18th, 2012, 05:34 PM
Has anyone looked into getting ramatroban/baynas? where to get it and how to apply or take orally? Any info?

Also where did stopmpb.com go?

Boldy
April 18th, 2012, 05:39 PM
Has anyone looked into getting ramatroban/baynas? where to get it and how to apply or take orally? Any info?

Also where did **********.com go?

getting ramatroban is pretty easy bro.

Just google it and you will find a source that sels it for 170sd included shipping.

I would'nt take it orally! pretty much everything disolves well in ethanol. you could try 70/30 vehicle. And I would start with a low safe dose of 0.5%. Just dont go to high in dosage in the beginning. We must experiment with dosage.

2020
April 18th, 2012, 05:45 PM
all right then.... I'll be awaiting your results :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

If this worked 100%, then you would get a MASSIVE SHED within the first week since this is potentially even more effective than DUT

Boldy
April 18th, 2012, 05:48 PM
all right then.... I'll be awaiting your results :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

If this worked 100%, then you would get a MASSIVE SHED within the first week since this is potentially even more effective than DUT


Indeed ;) thats completely true., but on the other side, fin/dut, touch the cox1-2, which is also regulate pge2+pgf2alpha, but yes, there Must be a huge shedding. :)

2020
April 18th, 2012, 06:07 PM
Boldly, what about this:

http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf/20 ... spect.html (http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf/2012/03/research_shows_mercks_prospect.html)


Merck isn’t studying the anti-flushing drug in hair loss, said Ian McConnell, a Merck spokesman, in a telephone interview. “We haven’t seen any signals” in patient trials that the therapy might reduce baldness, he said.

does that mean that Merck already tried something similar to your product and it didn't work?

Cody333
April 18th, 2012, 06:29 PM
Boldly, what about this:

http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf/20 ... spect.html (http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf/2012/03/research_shows_mercks_prospect.html)


Merck isn’t studying the anti-flushing drug in hair loss, said Ian McConnell, a Merck spokesman, in a telephone interview. “We haven’t seen any signals” in patient trials that the therapy might reduce baldness, he said.

does that mean that Merck already tried something similar to your product and it didn't work?


I think the merck drug was for a different receptor, and they weren't testing it topically, which is what we would need to do.

Good luck to Boldy and anyone else who is going to be the first to test this, please keep us informed of your results.

czvezda
April 18th, 2012, 06:42 PM
I've already posted a study:

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/2 ... 8.full.pdf (http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/298/4/E838.full.pdf)

Because DHT induced COX-2 does not produce PGE2. Only inflammatory induced COX-2 raises PGE2 considerably. That's why I think a topical COX-2 inhibitor should work wonders + minoxidil

I will try the topical COX-2 inhibitor route for now. So it would be good if someone tested the GPR44 antagonist approach either with ramatroban or this OC stuff.

This study is not particularly useful. Here are some quotes from the discussion section:

Since COX-2 levels were increased after DHT treatment in
the absence of inflammation, we predicted that DHT would
also increase COX-2 levels in the presence of induced inflammation.
Surprisingly, DHT actually attenuated COX-2 levels in
the presence of cytokine or endotoxin stimulation. The AR
antagonist bicalutamide was unable to block this effect of
DHT.

Most bald human scalp experience some degree of chronic inflammation so according to above observation one should observe DHT-induced inhibition of inflammation. But on the other side DHT is the cause of that same inflammation.

Surprisingly, the
effects of DHT on COX-2 levels did not translate to changes in
PGE2 production, although other COX-2-derived end products
(prostacyclin, PGF2, and PGD2) may prove to be androgen
targets.

So this study says nothing about PGD2 production.

abcdefg
April 18th, 2012, 10:18 PM
I am first to say I hope it works and you guys pulled a lot more out of those studies then I could. I just wonder given how complex everything in body turns out to be how do you know at this early stage its not some more complex combination of these prostaglandin proteins that they mention? It could be a combination of 20 different ones in higher or lower concentrations between balding verse non balding scalps.
It just seems too simple, but honestly I would not be suprised if one day MPB is cured by a discovery just like this one. MPB might turn out to not be nearly as complex as once thought it can all change with one new puzzle piece.

shocktop311
April 18th, 2012, 10:47 PM
There has been no true evidence that masturbation increases the effects of mpb. This is a common fallacy.

LooseItAll
April 19th, 2012, 01:30 AM
I've already posted a study:

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/2 ... 8.full.pdf (http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/298/4/E838.full.pdf)

Because DHT induced COX-2 does not produce PGE2. Only inflammatory induced COX-2 raises PGE2 considerably. That's why I think a topical COX-2 inhibitor should work wonders + minoxidil

I will try the topical COX-2 inhibitor route for now. So it would be good if someone tested the GPR44 antagonist approach either with ramatroban or this OC stuff.

This study is not particularly useful. Here are some quotes from the discussion section:

Since COX-2 levels were increased after DHT treatment in
the absence of inflammation, we predicted that DHT would
also increase COX-2 levels in the presence of induced inflammation.
Surprisingly, DHT actually attenuated COX-2 levels in
the presence of cytokine or endotoxin stimulation. The AR
antagonist bicalutamide was unable to block this effect of
DHT.

Most bald human scalp experience some degree of chronic inflammation so according to above observation one should observe DHT-induced inhibition of inflammation. But on the other side DHT is the cause of that same inflammation.

Surprisingly, the
effects of DHT on COX-2 levels did not translate to changes in
PGE2 production, although other COX-2-derived end products
(prostacyclin, PGF2, and PGD2) may prove to be androgen
targets.

So this study says nothing about PGD2 production.


It doesn't but you can safely conclude that PGD2 raises. After all what would be the cause of PGD2 elevation if not DHT iduced COX-2? This study just puts the final brick as to why elevated COX-2 could lead to baldness despite us knowing that PGE2 is good for hair growth. That's because it doesn't raise PGE2 so the PGE2/PGD2 balans is shifted in favor of PGD2.

czvezda
April 19th, 2012, 04:25 AM
It doesn't but you can safely conclude that PGD2 raises. After all what would be the cause of PGD2 elevation if not DHT iduced COX-2? This study just puts the final brick as to why elevated COX-2 could lead to baldness despite us knowing that PGE2 is good for hair growth. That's because it doesn't raise PGE2 so the PGE2/PGD2 balans is shifted in favor of PGD2.

Unfortunately, the study is not making those claims but you are. There is no way to conjecture from the study what is going on with PGD2.
If anything, from the study it seems like PGD2 production is decreased by DHT. Because DHT decreases COX-1 and COX-2 activity in the presence of inflammation (human bald scalp) and PGE2 production is unchanged. One can conclude that this unchanged PGE2 levels are at the expense of other prostaglandins/prstacyclins (they all share the same COX-1 and COX-2 enzymes).

LooseItAll
April 19th, 2012, 04:58 AM
It doesn't but you can safely conclude that PGD2 raises. After all what would be the cause of PGD2 elevation if not DHT iduced COX-2? This study just puts the final brick as to why elevated COX-2 could lead to baldness despite us knowing that PGE2 is good for hair growth. That's because it doesn't raise PGE2 so the PGE2/PGD2 balans is shifted in favor of PGD2.

Unfortunately, the study is not making those claims but you are. There is no way to conjecture from the study what is going on with PGD2.
If anything, from the study it seems like PGD2 production is decreased by DHT. Because DHT decreases COX-1 and COX-2 activity in the presence of inflammation (human bald scalp) and PGE2 production is unchanged. One can conclude that this unchanged PGE2 levels are at the expense of other prostaglandins/prstacyclins (they all share the same COX-1 and COX-2 enzymes).

No. The conclusion of this study is that DHT can cause some sort of inflammation by increasing COX-2. But with a "real" inflammation DHT slightly reduces COX-2.

The inflammation in human bald scalp is due to DHT, so it is a PGE2 nonincreased inflammation with probably increased PGD2.

Keep in mind that raised PGD2 levels in scalp are the proven cause of MPB. But it has to be linked with androgens and AR-binding. Otherwise antiandrogens wouldn't have an effect.

I will prove to you my theory with regrowth :punk:

sapinho
April 19th, 2012, 07:51 AM
The inflammation in human bald scalp is due to DHT, so it is a PGE2 nonincreased inflammation with probably increased PGD2.

COX2 should increase PGE2. Right?

Doesn't this strike you as a mystery as to "how" DHT leads to increased COX2 while not increasing PGE2?

I'm going to assume that the culprit is more than just (DHT-induced) COX2 leading to increased PGD2.

Between blocking COX2 and blocking PGD2, at this point, perhaps the majority are correct in trying to attack PGD2. Much is already known about what DHT induces, 10-fold higher PGD2 simply stands out above the rest, but there's more to it, and it's likely not just COX2.

Cody333
April 19th, 2012, 12:50 PM
Here's a link for the whole study paper, if anyone is interested in reading the entire thing.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/fqang6

I've downloaded it and no problems.

LooseItAll
April 19th, 2012, 03:59 PM
The inflammation in human bald scalp is due to DHT, so it is a PGE2 nonincreased inflammation with probably increased PGD2.

COX2 should increase PGE2. Right?

Doesn't this strike you as a mystery as to "how" DHT leads to increased COX2 while not increasing PGE2?

I'm going to assume that the culprit is more than just (DHT-induced) COX2 leading to increased PGD2.

Between blocking COX2 and blocking PGD2, at this point, perhaps the majority are correct in trying to attack PGD2. Much is already known about what DHT induces, 10-fold higher PGD2 simply stands out above the rest, but there's more to it, and it's likely not just COX2.

Estrogen induced COX2 produces PGI2. So there is a possibility that DHT induced COX-2 produces PGD2.

The problem with blocking PGD2 is that blocking it completely may not be beneficial in terms of health as I am sure that the basic level of PGD2 is there for a reason. If I am correct then blocking COX-2 will surpress only the extra PGD2 that is DHT induced causing baldness.

BTW if nobody will try, nobody will ever know

sapinho
April 19th, 2012, 07:28 PM
I agree that that's a decent approach, sorry to sound like a pessimist. Just easier to get behind what the study did prove.

It certainly would have been interesting if the study, which noted the overexpressed immune response, would have studied what happens to PTGDS and PTGES levels as COX2 is reduced.

2020
April 19th, 2012, 07:35 PM
isn't COX-2 responsible for inflammation??


anyways, it would be UNREAL if a cure were to be discovered at this forum, IN THIS THREAD! :woot: :woot: :woot:

Boldy
April 19th, 2012, 10:36 PM
30 people will try, so we will know very soon!:)




The inflammation in human bald scalp is due to DHT, so it is a PGE2 nonincreased inflammation with probably increased PGD2.

COX2 should increase PGE2. Right?

Doesn't this strike you as a mystery as to "how" DHT leads to increased COX2 while not increasing PGE2?

I'm going to assume that the culprit is more than just (DHT-induced) COX2 leading to increased PGD2.

Between blocking COX2 and blocking PGD2, at this point, perhaps the majority are correct in trying to attack PGD2. Much is already known about what DHT induces, 10-fold higher PGD2 simply stands out above the rest, but there's more to it, and it's likely not just COX2.

Estrogen induced COX2 produces PGI2. So there is a possibility that DHT induced COX-2 produces PGD2.

The problem with blocking PGD2 is that blocking it completely may not be beneficial in terms of health as I am sure that the basic level of PGD2 is there for a reason. If I am correct then blocking COX-2 will surpress only the extra PGD2 that is DHT induced causing baldness.

BTW if nobody will try, nobody will ever know

israelite
April 19th, 2012, 10:43 PM
60 dollars a gram is a good price

rwhairlosstalk
April 20th, 2012, 03:47 AM
isn't COX-2 responsible for inflammation??


anyways, it would be UNREAL if a cure were to be discovered at this forum, IN THIS THREAD! :woot: :woot: :woot:
trust me, talks like these go on all the time. no biggie

smitysmity
April 20th, 2012, 04:21 AM
So what is the best product we know so far that can help fight this?

squeegee
April 20th, 2012, 04:06 PM
Thanks for the op and the pro active people that participated in this thread. Over the years I tried a lot of supplements and topicals .... The best thing I ever tried was Miconazole Nitrate4% and Minox duo.. Even Female having great results with Mico only....Here here an Interesting study..
Miconazole inhibition of platelet aggregation by inhibiting cyclooxygenase.

AuthorsIshikawa S, et al. Show all Journal
Biochem Pharmacol. 1986 Jun 1;35(11):1787-92.iu
Affiliation
Abstract
Platelet dysfunction was found in rabbits to which a dose of miconazole nitrate (1.6 mg/kg body wt) therapeutic for human subjects had been given intravenously. The present experiments were conducted to elucidate the mechanism of inhibitory effects of miconazole on platelet function. After administration of a single dose of miconazole, rabbit platelet aggregation induced by collagen and sodium arachidonate was inhibited significantly for approximately 24 hr. On the other hand, hypertriglycemia, one of the major side effects of this drug, was not seen during 2 days of observations, nor were any other outstanding manifestations observed. In in vitro experiments, miconazole nitrate (10 microM) also significantly inhibited rabbit and human platelet aggregation (P less than 0.01). Biochemical analyses revealed that the stimulant-induced formation of prostaglandin E2 (PGE2) and thromboxane B2 (TXB2), metabolites via cyclooxygenase, was inhibited by miconazole nitrate in both human and rabbit platelets in vitro. PGE2 production was decreased dose-dependently with the increase of miconazole concentration (10 to 100 microM), and the decrease was in parallel with a decrease of TXB2 production. In addition, malondialdehyde (MDA) production of human and rabbit platelets induced by exogenous arachidonate and collagen was also inhibited significantly by miconazole. Chromatographic studies showed that the amount of 12-L-hydroxy-5,8,10,14-eicosatetraenoic acid (HETE), a metabolite via lipoxygenase, was increased markedly in accordance with the miconazole-induced decrease of TXB2 and 12-L-hydroxy-5,8,10-heptadecatrienoic acid (HHT) formation in both human and rabbit platelets. These results indicate that miconazole nitrate inhibits platelet cyclooxygenase, without affecting the stimulant-induced release of arachidonic acid from platelet phospholipids. Use of this drug in the treatment of systemic fungal infection appears to be increasing. Careful attention should be paid to the inhibitory effects of miconazole on platelet function, especially in the case of intravenous treatment.

PMID 3087363 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Full text: Elsevier Science
Related CitationsShow all
Triphenyltin fluoride in vitro inhibition of rabbit platelet collagen-induced aggregation and ATP secretion and blockade of arachidonic acid mobilization from membrane phospholipids.
Arachidonate metabolism, 5-hydroxytryptamine release and aggregation in human platelets activated by palmitaldehyde acetal phosphatidic acid.
In vitro effects of picotamide on human platelet aggregation, the release reaction and thromboxane B2 production.
Benzodiazepines inhibit human platelet activation: comparison of the mechanism of antiplatelet actions of flurazepam and diazepam.
Effect of tert-butyl hydroperoxide on cyclooxygenase and lipoxygenase metabolism of arachidonic acid in rabbit platelets.

squeegee
April 20th, 2012, 04:09 PM
I think that cyclooxygenase is the villain enzyme in hair growth .I am on a military exercise right now using my damn iphone...not easy lol I ordered 1 Kg of Miconazole Nitrate from China last month but got health Canada returned it to the sender.LOL everything pharmaceutical is a bit of gambling...

2020
April 20th, 2012, 05:59 PM
I think that cyclooxygenase is the villain enzyme in hair growth .I am on a military exercise right now using my damn iphone...not easy lol I ordered 1 Kg of Miconazole Nitrate from China last month but got health Canada returned it to the sender.LOL everything pharmaceutical is a bit of gambling...

but you're already bald anyways.... why even bother?? Your follicles are long gone :jackit: :jackit: :jackit:

squeegee
April 20th, 2012, 06:34 PM
I think that cyclooxygenase is the villain enzyme in hair growth .I am on a military exercise right now using my damn iphone...not easy lol I ordered 1 Kg of Miconazole Nitrate from China last month but got health Canada returned it to the sender.LOL everything pharmaceutical is a bit of gambling...

but you're already bald anyways.... why even bother?? Your follicles are long gone :jackit: :jackit: :jackit:


Wtf is your problem dumbass? you polluting every ****ing threads with your stupid comments.. for your information I am maybe a norwood 2 so far than being bald and also that bald people have the same qty of stem cell has a non balding guy...they just not migrate anymore ... so everything can regrowth. you are annoying troll and a dumb one... you ****ing stink gtfo :puke:

2020
April 20th, 2012, 07:12 PM
Wtf is your problem dumbass? you polluting every f****ing threads with your stupid comments.. for your information I am maybe a norwood 2 so far than being bald

every thread? stupid comments? I probably post more USEFUL info than you. All you do is copy paste some obscure, barely relevant study to every thread.




and also that bald people have the same qty of stem cell has a non balding guy...they just not migrate anymore ... so everything can regrowth. you are annoying troll and a dumb one... you f****ing stink gtfo :puke:

not really true.... how will you make that stem cell to grow hair again? You need some kind of "growth factors"

squeegee
April 20th, 2012, 09:40 PM
Wtf is your problem dumbass? you polluting every f****ing threads with your stupid comments.. for your information I am maybe a norwood 2 so far than being bald

every thread? stupid comments? I probably post more USEFUL info than you. All you do is copy paste some obscure, barely relevant study to every thread.




and also that bald people have the same qty of stem cell has a non balding guy...they just not migrate anymore ... so everything can regrowth. you are annoying troll and a dumb one... you f****ing stink gtfo :puke:

not really true.... how will you make that stem cell to grow hair again? You need some kind of "growth factors"

you should go back as a lurker , you are clueless.

Boldy
April 21st, 2012, 08:51 PM
Guys,

Please use the PM function for this Childish/ Negative Behavior.

this is not helping anyone.

Keep it ON TOPIC


Thanks.

Boldy
April 21st, 2012, 09:53 PM
After reading couple hours of studies about the CRTH2 receptor, I get more and more the feeling that Cytokines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytokine

are one of the actual hairloss inhibiators. They cause also cell death, fever etc..


By blocking the CRTH2 cels the production of cytokines will also be reduced.


this is just a theory.

... I need to do more reading..... To figure everything out around the CRTH2 receptor. also to detect possible sideffects.

So high PGD2 Valuess, Will express Citokines, which could cause itching, and other fevers..

I'm trying to find all the possible links between the CRTH2 and other receptors/ cels. and filter somethings out that really causes hair growth inhibition.

So try to get closer to the actual cause.

czvezda
April 22nd, 2012, 09:39 AM
Cytokines are one of the actual hairloss inhibiators.
They are not much different from hormones. Cytokines + hormones are responsible for almost anything that happens in human body.

2020
April 22nd, 2012, 05:16 PM
so is anyone actually started using that new "prostaglandin blocker"?

also, this thread on HLH is kind of interesting

http://bit.ly/Iha3J4 [full regrowth of hairline with sulfasalazine]

apparently, sulfasalazine reduces the production of prostaglandings....
http://www.medicinenet.com/sulfasalazine/article.htm

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

squeegee
April 22nd, 2012, 08:39 PM
so is anyone actually started using that new "prostaglandin blocker"?

also, this thread on HLH is kind of interesting

http://bit.ly/Iha3J4 [full regrowth of hairline with sulfasalazine]

apparently, sulfasalazine reduces the production of prostaglandings....
http://www.medicinenet.com/sulfasalazine/article.htm

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

5 loxin is more potent and has no side effects. There is a lot of threads on this here... I took sulfasalazine for months.. You have to overdose it and depression was one of my side effect.

2020
April 22nd, 2012, 08:56 PM
5 loxin is more potent and has no side effects. There is a lot of threads on this here... I took sulfasalazine for months.. You have to overdose it and depression was one of my side effect.

any results to report?

Anyways, that was not my point. I'm not suggesting anyone to start taking this arthritis drug, I'm just saying that apparently reducing your prostaglandin production(through whatever drugs) seems to help hair for some.....
I can't wait for the results from boldy... :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

squeegee
April 22nd, 2012, 09:38 PM
Cool link about Cox-2


http://www.nature.com/nchembio/journal/ ... 75_F1.html (http://www.nature.com/nchembio/journal/v6/n6/fig_tab/nchembio.375_F1.html)

alscarmuzza
April 23rd, 2012, 09:59 PM
Just curious, am I the only one on scg eyedrops at the moment?

Would Nasalcrom be a good alternative?

young trunks
April 24th, 2012, 12:28 AM
guys...I found a cheaper treatment that I'm starting.

TREATMENT: Massage any pure, natural oil into scalp, Extra virgin olive, coconut and grape seed work well. Then brush vigorously preferably using a palm held brush with short natural boar bristles.(Quite stiff bristles are best). You can see them on Amazon - they are known as military brushes.
Brush strongly so you feel it stimulating/irritating scalp. But do not overdo it. Do 90 /110 strokes each day and focus on where loss is. You may be apprehensive about irritating scalp - believe me I was too but this is what will force new growth as it unplugs the blocked hair ducts that result in loss - they are experienced as the painful small itching spots.
As you brush some shedding and breakage may occur at first but will quickly stop as brushing makes hair better anchored and stronger. New hairs will appear and will be weak looking and sparse. Keep up the brushing and do not be concerned if brushing uproots them, as they will RE-APPEAR EVEN STRONGER and will not be uprooted.
I found it best at the beginning to apply the oil at night, do the brushing and sleep with it that way and wash off in the morning.

It work for this guy and it's the cheapest treatment. Alot of people are having success on another forum too.

LooseItAll
April 24th, 2012, 05:53 AM
guys...I found a cheaper treatment that I'm starting.

TREATMENT: Massage any pure, natural oil into scalp, Extra virgin olive, coconut and grape seed work well. Then brush vigorously preferably using a palm held brush with short natural boar bristles.(Quite stiff bristles are best). You can see them on Amazon - they are known as military brushes.
Brush strongly so you feel it stimulating/irritating scalp. But do not overdo it. Do 90 /110 strokes each day and focus on where loss is. You may be apprehensive about irritating scalp - believe me I was too but this is what will force new growth as it unplugs the blocked hair ducts that result in loss - they are experienced as the painful small itching spots.
As you brush some shedding and breakage may occur at first but will quickly stop as brushing makes hair better anchored and stronger. New hairs will appear and will be weak looking and sparse. Keep up the brushing and do not be concerned if brushing uproots them, as they will RE-APPEAR EVEN STRONGER and will not be uprooted.
I found it best at the beginning to apply the oil at night, do the brushing and sleep with it that way and wash off in the morning.

It work for this guy and it's the cheapest treatment. Alot of people are having success on another forum too.

you're delusional... My friend once told me that her father(who went bald) was working with another MPB sufferer that refused to give up fighting nature. He went to some doc that told him to continously hit himself in the balding areas with a small wooden plank. Believe it or not her father was hearing him hitting himself every day at work... Didn't help BTW

Boldy
April 24th, 2012, 08:19 AM
Awsome!

http://www.arthritistoday.org/nutrition ... mation.php (http://www.arthritistoday.org/nutrition-and-weight-loss/healthy-eating/food-and-inflammation/olive-oil-inflammation.php)


this makes sense, But the downside it will REDUCE PGF2a+PG2E also!!+COX1

I guess its good to give it a try intill the production of OC000459 finishes.


Could you past me the links?, I would like to read more about these people on the forums. Quite interesting!:)


guys...I found a cheaper treatment that I'm starting.

TREATMENT: Massage any pure, natural oil into scalp, Extra virgin olive, coconut and grape seed work well. Then brush vigorously preferably using a palm held brush with short natural boar bristles.(Quite stiff bristles are best). You can see them on Amazon - they are known as military brushes.
Brush strongly so you feel it stimulating/irritating scalp. But do not overdo it. Do 90 /110 strokes each day and focus on where loss is. You may be apprehensive about irritating scalp - believe me I was too but this is what will force new growth as it unplugs the blocked hair ducts that result in loss - they are experienced as the painful small itching spots.
As you brush some shedding and breakage may occur at first but will quickly stop as brushing makes hair better anchored and stronger. New hairs will appear and will be weak looking and sparse. Keep up the brushing and do not be concerned if brushing uproots them, as they will RE-APPEAR EVEN STRONGER and will not be uprooted.
I found it best at the beginning to apply the oil at night, do the brushing and sleep with it that way and wash off in the morning.

It work for this guy and it's the cheapest treatment. Alot of people are having success on another forum too.

2020
April 24th, 2012, 08:39 AM
boldy, are you still using OC000459? :innocent: :innocent: :innocent:

Boldy
April 24th, 2012, 09:31 AM
boldy, are you still using OC000459? :innocent: :innocent: :innocent:


This post proves me again that you CAN NOT read. OC000459 production time is +- 4 weeks as mentioned in the earlier posts.

have a bit patience :innocent:. we will know soon enough, if our CRTH2 is the answer to our hairloss!

2020
April 24th, 2012, 11:34 AM
I've read it, I just haven't paid attention to post dates... I thought for sure 4 weeks have passed already...

anyways, it seems that this drug(OC000459) is being tested to treat asthma and other allergies.... is it possible that the elevated levels of PGD2 on our scalp is due to some allergy?? :shock: :shock: :shock:

Boldy
April 24th, 2012, 12:29 PM
Who knows...

I have food allergy, high fever and a bit asthmatic ... so very possible :)



I've read it, I just haven't paid attention to post dates... I thought for sure 4 weeks have passed already...

anyways, it seems that this drug(OC000459) is being tested to treat asthma and other allergies.... is it possible that the elevated levels of PGD2 on our scalp is due to some allergy?? :shock: :shock: :shock:

2020
April 24th, 2012, 01:03 PM
which foods? Gluten?

anyways, I have absolutely no allergies or any health problems whatsoever so I don't know what to think....
Is it possible that baldness is not really genetic, it's just that you have some underlying allergies which makes your scalp produce excessive prostaglandins and make you lose hair? :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

Boldy
April 24th, 2012, 01:37 PM
I have allergy for spicy food etc..

Well, It should be genetic. Because its triggert BY androgens. and just some parts of the body like the scalp Produce excessive Prostaglandines..

I cant wait to see if this theory really works.

Then we all together could say bye bye to the depression comes from hairloss!!

Maybe you should change your name to 2012 ;) haha





which foods? Gluten?

anyways, I have absolutely no allergies or any health problems whatsoever so I don't know what to think....
Is it possible that baldness is not really genetic, it's just that you have some underlying allergies which makes your scalp produce excessive prostaglandins and make you lose hair? :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

young trunks
April 24th, 2012, 02:53 PM
Awsome!

http://www.arthritistoday.org/nutrition ... mation.php (http://www.arthritistoday.org/nutrition-and-weight-loss/healthy-eating/food-and-inflammation/olive-oil-inflammation.php)


this makes sense, But the downside it will REDUCE PGF2a+PG2E also!!+COX1

I guess its good to give it a try intill the production of OC000459 finishes.


Could you past me the links?, I would like to read more about these people on the forums. Quite interesting!:)


guys...I found a cheaper treatment that I'm starting.

TREATMENT: Massage any pure, natural oil into scalp, Extra virgin olive, coconut and grape seed work well. Then brush vigorously preferably using a palm held brush with short natural boar bristles.(Quite stiff bristles are best). You can see them on Amazon - they are known as military brushes.
Brush strongly so you feel it stimulating/irritating scalp. But do not overdo it. Do 90 /110 strokes each day and focus on where loss is. You may be apprehensive about irritating scalp - believe me I was too but this is what will force new growth as it unplugs the blocked hair ducts that result in loss - they are experienced as the painful small itching spots.
As you brush some shedding and breakage may occur at first but will quickly stop as brushing makes hair better anchored and stronger. New hairs will appear and will be weak looking and sparse. Keep up the brushing and do not be concerned if brushing uproots them, as they will RE-APPEAR EVEN STRONGER and will not be uprooted.
I found it best at the beginning to apply the oil at night, do the brushing and sleep with it that way and wash off in the morning.

It work for this guy and it's the cheapest treatment. Alot of people are having success on another forum too.

No problem man.. I even joined the forum after reading through it. The idea came from an ad in an unpopular magazine in the 80s (the kinds you see at grocery stores)...it said no pills, no topicals, etc.. Some dude tried it and it worked. Then this one guy did it his whole life and it worked he lived to late 80s.

Anyway here is the link:

http://immortalhair.forumandco.com/t724 ... illa-power (http://immortalhair.forumandco.com/t7247-grow-new-hair-the-original-papilla-power)

young trunks
April 24th, 2012, 02:59 PM
Awsome!

http://www.arthritistoday.org/nutrition ... mation.php (http://www.arthritistoday.org/nutrition-and-weight-loss/healthy-eating/food-and-inflammation/olive-oil-inflammation.php)


this makes sense, But the downside it will REDUCE PGF2a+PG2E also!!+COX1

I guess its good to give it a try intill the production of OC000459 finishes.


Could you past me the links?, I would like to read more about these people on the forums. Quite interesting!:)

[quote="young trunks":3csonoeu]guys...I found a cheaper treatment that I'm starting.

TREATMENT: Massage any pure, natural oil into scalp, Extra virgin olive, coconut and grape seed work well. Then brush vigorously preferably using a palm held brush with short natural boar bristles.(Quite stiff bristles are best). You can see them on Amazon - they are known as military brushes.
Brush strongly so you feel it stimulating/irritating scalp. But do not overdo it. Do 90 /110 strokes each day and focus on where loss is. You may be apprehensive about irritating scalp - believe me I was too but this is what will force new growth as it unplugs the blocked hair ducts that result in loss - they are experienced as the painful small itching spots.
As you brush some shedding and breakage may occur at first but will quickly stop as brushing makes hair better anchored and stronger. New hairs will appear and will be weak looking and sparse. Keep up the brushing and do not be concerned if brushing uproots them, as they will RE-APPEAR EVEN STRONGER and will not be uprooted.
I found it best at the beginning to apply the oil at night, do the brushing and sleep with it that way and wash off in the morning.

It work for this guy and it's the cheapest treatment. Alot of people are having success on another forum too.[/quote:3csonoeu]

No problem man.. I even joined the forum after reading through it. The idea came from an ad in an unpopular magazine in the 80s (the kinds you see at grocery stores)...it said no pills, no topicals, etc.. Some dude tried it and it worked. Then this one guy did it his whole life and it worked he lived to late 80s.

WTF why isn't link working...just google this : (The original Papilla Power??) and it's the first link that appears with that in it.

2020
April 24th, 2012, 03:19 PM
oh come on.... take this crap to immortal hair forums. First of all: WHY WOULD IT WORK?? do you know how many "oils" have been proposed to treat male pattern baldness? What makes this one any different??

Boldy
April 24th, 2012, 03:29 PM
oh come on.... take this crap to immortal hair forums. First of all: WHY WOULD IT WORK?? do you know how many "oils" have been proposed to treat male pattern baldness? What makes this one any different??

2020, It could work at couple %, but as you and I know, inhibition couple % of COX2 is not effective enough. There will still be much PGD2 left. But its could be a nice try to slow the process down for some people :).
And they will deal with reduced PG2E+PGF2a.. so thi natural treatment will have its downsides.

to completely stop PGD2 attacking, we must block the CRTH2 receptor :)


I cant wait for My OC000459. If the theory and study is 100% right. I will be the happiest man on earth! :innocent: :)

waynakyo
April 24th, 2012, 06:52 PM
Boldy are you planning to check purity before you try it ?

Boldy
April 24th, 2012, 07:11 PM
Boldy are you planning to check purity before you try it ?


ON Hairloss help, Me and others are planning to check the purity. and we might ask Hairy for that. so yess we will set something up Just to be sure.

Although, I trust the lab, so once they finish production, and they show me the HNMR+HPLC+Mass Spec, I will order and start using it. And let the supplier send hairy a test sample, so we know for sure its OC000459 99% pure.

My hairline is getting very bad, So i cant spill any more time. thats why I´m going to order before we get hairy´s results.

2020
April 24th, 2012, 07:41 PM
what about the fact that 18 or so proteins were in excess in bald scalps? PGD2 was one of them, but what makes you think it's THE ONLY ONE responsible for hair loss? It may be responsible for inflammation but that may be it.
How much of PGD2 did they inject into mice? If it's 1000x normal levels then yeah, I guess it would make your hair fall out. What if they tried injecting 12x?

Boldy
April 24th, 2012, 08:19 PM
what about the fact that 18 or so proteins were in excess in bald scalps? PGD2 was one of them, but what makes you think it's THE ONLY ONE responsible for hair loss? It may be responsible for inflammation but that may be it.
How much of PGD2 did they inject into mice? If it's 1000x normal levels then yeah, I guess it would make your hair fall out. What if they tried injecting 12x?


Time will tell.

Its a chain reaction. More androgens= more cox and all its derivates.

PGD2 was most increased of all of them.



this still an experiment. We all hope the study is right offcourse.

TheLastHairbender
April 25th, 2012, 03:14 AM
More androgens= more cox

That works the other way around too.

Boldy
April 25th, 2012, 06:00 AM
More androgens= more cox

That works the other way around too.


In our aga scalp, cox increases when androgens increase.

TheLastHairbender
April 25th, 2012, 07:29 AM
Ya missed it:

More cocks in a room -> more androgens

Boldy
April 25th, 2012, 07:35 AM
Ya missed it:

More cocks in a room -> more androgens


hahah, very funny :P

yassin
April 26th, 2012, 04:36 PM
I think that PGD2 maybe a by-product in the pathogenesis of AA. it's suppression may not treat the AA. i think every body here must not treat himself as a lab rabbit and just wait and use the only the proven medications

2020
April 26th, 2012, 04:42 PM
I think that PGD2 maybe a by-product in the pathogenesis of AA. it's suppression may not treat the AA. i think every body here must not treat himself as a lab rabbit and just wait and use the only the proven medications

are you talking about Alopecia Areata???

if not: why wouldn't it work for baldness?? It's been shown that this protein DIRECTLY shrinks follicles... explain yourself

sapinho
April 26th, 2012, 08:48 PM
I had no idea what a Niacin (Vit. B-3) flush was, never experienced it, but it appears to be somewhat of a health fad. The capillaries are dilated and gives a warm, sometimes burning(!)/itchy, feeling throughout the skin.

Whether or not it's healthy, I don't know, but apparently a lot of PGD2 is released as part of the process and most people feel fine after a few minutes.

I wonder if applying this topically would use up a lot of the PGD2 synthase. Assuming(!) the PGD2 is flushed out somehow, this might actually reduce the amount of PGD2 the body can produce for the remainder of the day and actually lower PGD2 levels.

Mechanically scratched mice were shown to have lowered COX1 and PGD2 levels, suggesting that it is possible to saturate PGD2 through something as simple as scratching. So, perhaps Niacin could quickly saturate and do the same? Again, all of this on the flimsy assumption that we can also flush out the PGD2 produced during the so-called flushing.

rwhairlosstalk
April 28th, 2012, 03:54 AM
Hmmm.

I've read that aspirin reduces COX-2. I wonder will that translate in less hair shed. You know, aspirin may be an anti inflammatory.

zeroes
April 28th, 2012, 04:09 AM
I had no idea what a Niacin (Vit. B-3) flush was, never experienced it, but it appears to be somewhat of a health fad. The capillaries are dilated and gives a warm, sometimes burning(!)/itchy, feeling throughout the skin.

I took a very low dosage of 1 x 100mg capsule the other night and I personally didn't enjoy the experience. Until it's proven to be beneficial I am going to stay away from it.

czvezda
April 28th, 2012, 04:58 AM
Hmmm.

I've read that aspirin reduces COX-2. I wonder will that translate in less hair shed. You know, aspirin may be an anti inflammatory.

This is the quote from PGD2 study:

This model predicts then that efforts to reverse alopecia should optimally focus on both enhancing PGE2 and inhibiting PGD2 signaling. This model also explains why agents such as aspirin, which inhibit upstream prostaglandin synthesis enzymes
(PTGS1 and PTGS2), have minimal effects on hair growth because of likely equally decreased production of PGE2 and PGD2.

Cody333
April 28th, 2012, 09:30 PM
Hmmm.

I've read that aspirin reduces COX-2. I wonder will that translate in less hair shed. You know, aspirin may be an anti inflammatory.

This is the quote from PGD2 study:

This model predicts then that efforts to reverse alopecia should optimally focus on both enhancing PGE2 and inhibiting PGD2 signaling. This model also explains why agents such as aspirin, which inhibit upstream prostaglandin synthesis enzymes
(PTGS1 and PTGS2), have minimal effects on hair growth because of likely equally decreased production of PGE2 and PGD2.


Also in the study they say,


Additional evidence that prostaglandins control hair follicle cycling
and can be used therapeutically to treat AGA arises from findings on
the possible mechanism of the AGA drug minoxidil. Although minoxidil
alters potassium channel kinetics, it is also known to increase
production of PGE2. Given the decreased amount of PGE2 present
in bald scalp versus haired scalp, minoxidil may normalize
PGE2 levels.

Maybe the reason why some people respond well to stuff like Minox and others don't is simply down to the amount of PGD2 present in their scalps, that seems to make sense to me, although it's elevated for all MPB sufferers there's bound to be a scale on how much is present, probably the longer you suffer from MPB the more there is present.

squeegee
April 29th, 2012, 12:09 AM
Guys look up at healthy eicosanoids...

rwhairlosstalk
April 29th, 2012, 05:35 PM
Hmmm.

I've read that aspirin reduces COX-2. I wonder will that translate in less hair shed. You know, aspirin may be an anti inflammatory.

This is the quote from PGD2 study:

This model predicts then that efforts to reverse alopecia should optimally focus on both enhancing PGE2 and inhibiting PGD2 signaling. This model also explains why agents such as aspirin, which inhibit upstream prostaglandin synthesis enzymes
(PTGS1 and PTGS2), have minimal effects on hair growth because of likely equally decreased production of PGE2 and PGD2.




Makes me think if I do daily aspirin (reduced cancer prospect research that just came out) it make reduce hair growth. Uh oh.

squeegee
April 30th, 2012, 12:49 AM
Interesting study: http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/conte ... 6.full.pdf (http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/62/9/2516.full.pdf)

Administration of a specific COX-2
inhibitor restored hair growth, indicating that the alopecia was attributable
to elevated COX-2 enzymatic activity.

tomcatt
April 30th, 2012, 09:50 AM
There is a PGE2 gel !

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6625668

So we could use this gel and take a cox-2 inhibitor (to reduce all the prostagaldin)

Cody333
April 30th, 2012, 08:53 PM
There is a PGE2 gel !

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6625668

So we could use this gel and take a cox-2 inhibitor (to reduce all the prostagaldin)


It wouldn't be a very good idea to reduce all the prostaglandins, I think the best thing the experimenters can do is first test the PGD2 inhibitor on its own, getting the right dosage is going to be the trouble, if there's up to 12x the amount in balding areas then it might take quite a high dosage of the inhibitor to bring it down to normal range, they're not going to have a way of testing how much it's being lowered though, which will be a major problem, people using it might think it's not working but in reality it might have reduced it to 6x what you get in a normal scalp, but they won't know and could stop using it before it gets to the point of doing the job they're looking for.

If they can get the inhibitor dosage right, and it normalizes the amount of PGD2 present, then for all we know the PGE2 could start to normalize in the scalp as well, without the need to add any other medication, if it isn't the excess PGD2 lowering the PGE2 then the experimenters should look at a way to add minox to their treatment, but I don't think they should be taking anything else while testing the PGD2 inhibitor, you never know how different meds will interact with each other, and it could end up having a negative effect on the inhibitor.

Ace Ventura
May 1st, 2012, 03:36 AM
And which inhibitor did they use exactly????

LooseItAll
May 1st, 2012, 03:17 PM
My celecoxib arrived. I mixed 4g with 1 l of ethanol and a tad of PPG. 4mg per 1 ml. I am using about 4-5 ml daily on the whole balding are along with minox 2,5% and flutamide 1%.

Experienced massive shed after minox. So let's se what a COX-2 inhibitor can do.

squeegee
May 1st, 2012, 07:31 PM
My celecoxib arrived. I mixed 4g with 1 l of ethanol and a tad of PPG. 4mg per 1 ml. I am using about 4-5 ml daily on the whole balding are along with minox 2,5% and flutamide 1%.

Experienced massive shed after minox. So let's se what a COX-2 inhibitor can do.


Bad ass LosseitAtll.!!! Way to go.. Celecoxib is one of the best COX-2 inhibitor..molecular weight is 381.38 ..so I thing will be effective as a topical..Keep us updated... I will jump on the bandwagon soon.. I am on 2% Miconazole Nitrate + Diclofenac (Cox 2 inhibitor... but the otc version.. ) Probably update it to the prescription version soon... Miconazole also inhibit Cox..

squeegee
May 1st, 2012, 07:35 PM
There is a PGE2 gel !

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6625668

So we could use this gel and take a cox-2 inhibitor (to reduce all the prostagaldin)


It wouldn't be a very good idea to reduce all the prostaglandins, I think the best thing the experimenters can do is first test the PGD2 inhibitor on its own, getting the right dosage is going to be the trouble, if there's up to 12x the amount in balding areas then it might take quite a high dosage of the inhibitor to bring it down to normal range, they're not going to have a way of testing how much it's being lowered though, which will be a major problem, people using it might think it's not working but in reality it might have reduced it to 6x what you get in a normal scalp, but they won't know and could stop using it before it gets to the point of doing the job they're looking for.

If they can get the inhibitor dosage right, and it normalizes the amount of PGD2 present, then for all we know the PGE2 could start to normalize in the scalp as well, without the need to add any other medication, if it isn't the excess PGD2 lowering the PGE2 then the experimenters should look at a way to add minox to their treatment, but I don't think they should be taking anything else while testing the PGD2 inhibitor, you never know how different meds will interact with each other, and it could end up having a negative effect on the inhibitor.


Where did you get that x12 at? The study is claiming : They found that levels of PGD2 were elevated in bald scalp tissue at levels 3 times greater than what was found in comparative haired scalp of men with androgenetic alopecia.

squeegee
May 1st, 2012, 07:38 PM
Prostaglandin metabolism in human hair follicle


http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 0586.x/pdf (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0625.2007.00586.x/pdf)

Cody333
May 1st, 2012, 09:25 PM
There is a PGE2 gel !

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6625668

So we could use this gel and take a cox-2 inhibitor (to reduce all the prostagaldin)


It wouldn't be a very good idea to reduce all the prostaglandins, I think the best thing the experimenters can do is first test the PGD2 inhibitor on its own, getting the right dosage is going to be the trouble, if there's up to 12x the amount in balding areas then it might take quite a high dosage of the inhibitor to bring it down to normal range, they're not going to have a way of testing how much it's being lowered though, which will be a major problem, people using it might think it's not working but in reality it might have reduced it to 6x what you get in a normal scalp, but they won't know and could stop using it before it gets to the point of doing the job they're looking for.

If they can get the inhibitor dosage right, and it normalizes the amount of PGD2 present, then for all we know the PGE2 could start to normalize in the scalp as well, without the need to add any other medication, if it isn't the excess PGD2 lowering the PGE2 then the experimenters should look at a way to add minox to their treatment, but I don't think they should be taking anything else while testing the PGD2 inhibitor, you never know how different meds will interact with each other, and it could end up having a negative effect on the inhibitor.


Where did you get that x12 at? The study is claiming : They found that levels of PGD2 were elevated in bald scalp tissue at levels 3 times greater than what was found in comparative haired scalp of men with androgenetic alopecia.


Apologies, I must have read it somewhere without checking. My point still stands though, getting the right dosage of any inhibitor is going to be difficut.

Bet24
May 2nd, 2012, 03:16 AM
I have a question... if this works, do this treatment will be for life?, like minoxidil?

jonson
May 2nd, 2012, 03:58 AM
Had anyone try that and see results?

TravisB
May 2nd, 2012, 05:26 AM
My celecoxib arrived. I mixed 4g with 1 l of ethanol and a tad of PPG. 4mg per 1 ml. I am using about 4-5 ml daily on the whole balding are along with minox 2,5% and flutamide 1%.

Experienced massive shed after minox. So let's se what a COX-2 inhibitor can do.

Keep us updated! It could be interesting.

Anarch
May 2nd, 2012, 09:21 PM
Celecoxib is basically an Aspirin-like drug.

Aspirin was derived from White Willow Bark.

Just buy White Willow Bark extract and top off a bottle of Minoxidil. That's what I'm going to do …*maybe the end of this month.

Cody333
May 2nd, 2012, 11:06 PM
Aspirin like substances aren't going to help, if you want to inhibit the right receptor you need to be using the right drug, I don't see the point in wasting money on stuff we know won't help.

Anarch
May 2nd, 2012, 11:33 PM
stuff we know won't help.

How do you know? Did you try it? :dunno:

Cody333
May 3rd, 2012, 12:12 AM
stuff we know won't help.

How do you know? Did you try it? :dunno:

Well if it's like Aspirin, according to the PGD2 study,


This model predicts then that efforts to reverse alopecia should optimally focus on both enhancing PGE2 and inhibiting PGD2 signaling. This model also explains why agents such as aspirin, which inhibit upstream prostaglandin synthesis enzymes
(PTGS1 and PTGS2), have minimal effects on hair growth because of likely equally decreased production of PGE2 and PGD2.


And I just did a quick Google search to see if there was any information about Celecoxib decreasing production of PGE2, and there does appear to be quite a few articles saying that it does. I'm no expert in these things, so maybe someone with a better understanding can have a look, but it doesn't look like it would help us.

Anarch
May 3rd, 2012, 12:53 AM
But you said "know" and you didn't back that up with anything.

Koga
May 3rd, 2012, 01:01 AM
That's what I've heard too, Aspirin blocks the production of PGE-2 as well and PGE-2 is necessary for healthy hair growth. You don't wanna block this; just PGD-2.

Cody333
May 3rd, 2012, 01:21 AM
But you said "know" and you didn't back that up with anything.


Well we "know" PGE2 is essential for hair growth, and as I posted in the quote from the PGD2 study, aspirin like substances reduce PGE2 and PGD2, that won't help us at all, we need to inhibit PGD2 and increase PGE2, so we "know" that anything reducing PGE2 isn't of any use to us.

But if you want to take it, by all means fill your boots.

sapinho
May 3rd, 2012, 03:23 PM
He's only talking about blocking COX2, which basically means he's blocking a major pathway to inflammation.

You'll still get PGE2 from normal COX1 levels. Yes, many things online talk about rising PGE2 levels due to rising COX2. PGE2 goes hand-in-hand with inflammation so much that this is another metric of inflammation, but that doesn't mean it's ONLY produced by COX2.

His theory is that the high PGD2 levels come from COX2, not COX1. We'll see...

squeegee
May 3rd, 2012, 08:46 PM
Celecoxib is basically an Aspirin-like drug.

Aspirin was derived from White Willow Bark.

Just buy White Willow Bark extract and top off a bottle of Minoxidil. That's what I'm going to do …*maybe the end of this month.


Celecoxib is a NSAID selective COX-2 inhibitor.Primarily inhibits this isoform of cyclooxygenase (and thus causes inhibition of prostaglandin production), whereas nonselective NSAIDs (like asprin, naproxen and ibuprofen) inhibit both COX-1 and COX-2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclooxyge ... evelopment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclooxygenase_2_inhibitors:_drug_discovery_and_de velopment)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COX-2_selective_inhibitor

Boldy
May 4th, 2012, 08:40 AM
Why would you try to reduce PGD2, If you could do it more efficiently by targeting the one and only target receptor. CRTH2 antagonist should be the most efficient way to get rid of the inflammatory properties of PGD2.

I will try OC000459 very soon.

Reducing cox2, will also reduce a battery of essential prostaglandins.

Saint-Loup
May 4th, 2012, 10:56 AM
Celecoxib is basically an Aspirin-like drug.

Aspirin was derived from White Willow Bark.

Just buy White Willow Bark extract and top off a bottle of Minoxidil. That's what I'm going to do …*maybe the end of this month.


Celecoxib is a NSAID selective COX-2 inhibitor.Primarily inhibits this isoform of cyclooxygenase (and thus causes inhibition of prostaglandin production), whereas nonselective NSAIDs (like asprin, naproxen and ibuprofen) inhibit both COX-1 and COX-2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclooxyge ... evelopment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclooxygenase_2_inhibitors:_drug_discovery_and_de velopment)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COX-2_selective_inhibitor
It seems to be a bad idea :


COX-1 was identified as the main isoform present in the dermal papilla (DP) of normal human hair follicle (either anagen or catagen) (5), whereas COX-2 was only faintly and exclusively expressed in anagen dermal papilla. Although COX-2 activity was found to be necessary for early growth of hair follicle (6)

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 639.x/full (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0625.2007.00639.x/full)

Saint-Loup
May 4th, 2012, 11:06 AM
Celecoxib is basically an Aspirin-like drug.

Aspirin was derived from White Willow Bark.

Just buy White Willow Bark extract and top off a bottle of Minoxidil. That's what I'm going to do …*maybe the end of this month.
be careful...


Inhibitors of prostaglandin endoperoxide synthase such as indomethacin, ibuprofen, and aspirin were shown to block PG synthesis and inhibit hair growth (3,4).
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 639.x/full (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0625.2007.00639.x/full)

BrightonBaldy
May 4th, 2012, 07:53 PM
lots of info, lots of chemicals listed here

any of the experts fancy breaking it down a bit for me.


how do i nuke PGD2 ?

squeegee
May 4th, 2012, 09:11 PM
Celecoxib is basically an Aspirin-like drug.

Aspirin was derived from White Willow Bark.

Just buy White Willow Bark extract and top off a bottle of Minoxidil. That's what I'm going to do …*maybe the end of this month.


Celecoxib is a NSAID selective COX-2 inhibitor.Primarily inhibits this isoform of cyclooxygenase (and thus causes inhibition of prostaglandin production), whereas nonselective NSAIDs (like asprin, naproxen and ibuprofen) inhibit both COX-1 and COX-2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclooxyge ... evelopment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclooxygenase_2_inhibitors:_drug_discovery_and_de velopment)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COX-2_selective_inhibitor
It seems to be a bad idea :


COX-1 was identified as the main isoform present in the dermal papilla (DP) of normal human hair follicle (either anagen or catagen) (5), whereas COX-2 was only faintly and exclusively expressed in anagen dermal papilla. Although COX-2 activity was found to be necessary for early growth of hair follicle (6)

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 639.x/full (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0625.2007.00639.x/full)


You want to modulate/reduce prostaglandins... not stopping it.. A good start is by reducing Cox-2.

squeegee
May 4th, 2012, 09:14 PM
Celecoxib is basically an Aspirin-like drug.

Aspirin was derived from White Willow Bark.

Just buy White Willow Bark extract and top off a bottle of Minoxidil. That's what I'm going to do …*maybe the end of this month.
be careful...


Inhibitors of prostaglandin endoperoxide synthase such as indomethacin, ibuprofen, and aspirin were shown to block PG synthesis and inhibit hair growth (3,4).
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 639.x/full (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0625.2007.00639.x/full)


Although COX-2 activity was found to be necessary for early growth of hair follicle (6), PG injection or PG excess induced anagen to catagen transition and alopecia.